Why don’t you just let the Invisible Hand of the Market roll the boulder uphill?
Yes, being crushed by the weight of your own poor arguments, comprehension, and philosophy is probably quite an accurate way to describe arguing against a communist.
You can argue with communists, you can’t argue with fanboys or those who accepted Marx as the one and true Messiah and tell you to read ze book instead of providing any points. But that’s applicable to pretty much every topic (oop bad, for example).
I’m happy to hear this coming from someone on ml. At least some of you still possess the ability to reason.
Sorry to disappoint, but I’m not exactly into Marxism-Leninism, I’m more of an anarchist myself (the idea of dictatorship, be it of a working class or anyone else, doesn’t sit right with me). And ml was chosen at the time just due to it being hosted by the Lemmy devs
The Dictatorship of the Proletariat isn’t a literal dictatorship, but an establishment of Proletarian supremacy over Capital. It’s still democratic.
Allrighty, a poor choice of words, then. What I meant was more or less along the lines of “while I like the idea of communism, I think maintaining vertical power structures while trying to make it happen is more or less doomed to result in yet another autocracy”
You may be interested in the article Why do Marxists Fail to Bring the “Worker’s Paradise?” Marxists disagree with the idea that AES states are autocracies, while acknowledging that AES certainly isn’t a wonderland.
Additionally, Marxists don’t have an issue with hierarchy, but classes. The Marxist and Anarchist notions of the state are different, and as such judging AES by how well it advanced goals it never had is a bit silly.
Tnx, will check it out!
No problem! Let me know if you have any questions, it’s a short article so it’s lighter on details for tangentially related topics for the sake of brevity.
The dictatorship of the proletarist refers to the reversal of class dynamics in which the working class becomes the ruling class of a country and by necessity oppresses the owner class (e.g. expropriation of factories). It is not literal dictators.
Lemmy was created by communists and the ml instance is administered by them.
Yeah I got a pretty nauseating explanation of “The June 4th Incident”
One must find the anti-communist happy in their prison/punishment for being despotic, because they continue to repeat the same hypothetical thing everytime?
Are you doing that on Lemmy? In what communities?
Unfortunately on this community
On c/memes?
The authoritarian left and the liberal left have so little in common that it’s frustrating the term “left” encompasses both.
The “authoritarian” left is just the framework of every revolution that actually won. There is a very special kind of Western detached romantic chauvinist “left” that believes only in failed and failing pure leftism and tragedy and is shocked and outraged at what it means to win, to establish defenses, to keep a nation or nations running.
There is no liberal left. Liberals are the mainstream political and are by definition conservative under global capitalism.
Many of those aforementioned nations aren’t exactly still running, though.
Frequently targeted by the states these precious purity “leftists” live in. And that is not coincidental.
And the authoritarians try to reconcile this issue by saying we liberals are actually on the right. How wonderful!
To be clear, you were saying Capitalism is left wing. They are using Liberal, as in Libertarian, not as in the actual meaning of Liberal as in Capitalist.
Ain’t gonna argue with you bro
There is a difference.
A lot of people who claim to be liberal, just aren’t left wing. The good example is the FDP party in Germany.
To quote Wikipedia: The FDP’s political position has variously been described as centrist, centre-right, and right-wing. The FDP has been described as liberal, conservative-liberal, classical-liberal, and liberal-conservative. Other sources have described the party as libertarian or right-libertarian.
There are left wing liberals, but don’t act like they usually call themselves liberal.
It’s a simple fact.
Nah, it’s not really a communist issue. It’s tankie, the one that faithful to that few authoritarian country like a little lap dog they are, regardless of nuance. They only see one side having issue but refuse to see why socialism didn’t work all the time. It’s always capitalism bad socialism good, never a balance of both.
What’s a “tankie,” in your eyes, and how are they meaningfully distinct from Communists? Marxists defend AES, can acknowledge the failures and struggles of AES while praising the myriad successes as well, it’s liberals that always refuse to have a nuanced take on AES.
Secondly, there is no such thing as a “balance of both” Capitalism and Socialism. Either the Proletariat is in charge or the Bourgeoisie are in charge, and as such there will never be a balance.
Tankie - Mao-dickriding extremists that refuse to accept any nuance
Gotcha, so the anti-Deng ultraleft Maoists who denounce the modern PRC are the “tankies.” You’ll be happy to know that they are a fringe view among modern Marxists, especially fringe on Lemmy.
Also, ban evasion, misogyny, and homophobia all in one comment? Is that a bingo?
Not every communist throats the cocks of dictators like putin, Stalin, Mao, and the kims, so that’s one meaningful distinction.
Disgusting homophobic rhetoric. Apologize, delete your comment, and leave to do self-criticism.
Haven’t seen anyone doing that, plus that’s a homophobic and misogynistic framing of that statement anyways.
Ohh, fine then. From your opinion i concluded all communist is just a bunch of extremist like you i guess, because no nuance allowed. It’s all black and white.
Nuanced views of AES is extremist?
Watch out, you’re going to be banned for espousing incorrect doctrine.
I don’t mind being banned from an ml community tbh
Oh shit better look out, we got an edgelord here!
Ironic that you’re using the comic about using bad faith debates in order to shut down this thread complaining about bad faith debates on ML.
Ever heard of horseshoe theory?
Horseshoe theory is debunked nonsense, using it like a trump card in an argument is hilarious.
Read Blackshirts and Reds, by the way.
I recently saw a video on it, saying that it’s true, but in tge context of US politics
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWy8EEqXbBgAs an outsider looking at America, the vid makes sense. I saw some comments on the net say that RW Trump was the first US president to go to Nk and meet Kim rather than some LW one. I don’t know whether the meetings were useful tho
US politics has no left. It only exists as very small groups that, when they start having influence, get shut down by the feds. That video is super slow so I only watched 15 minutes but I would guess they are referring to a rejection of liberalism emerging from degrading material conditions being the main force of peeling off a left and right, and thus there us a similarity. Is that about right?
Yep. It says that the mainstream left n right in the US is pro-ruling class, with only minor differences and they get entangled around only entry-level topics without going after the materials reasons for issues n solving them.
I think they mean the democrats, with the term to mean the US mainstream ‘left’. The video criticises both the Left and Right under that definition.
Oh I see. I think I guessed wrong then. So they mean the mainstream left and right are both liberals, they are of the ideology of capitalism and therefore very similar, primarily defining themselves through shibboleths that are not really about commitments to policy or political action.
That repeatedly disproven line of horseshit? Yeah I’ve heard of it. Wasn’t impressed.
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Ever heard of horseshoe theory?
Yep.
Have you heard of the fish hook theory?
