Beehaw admins: there are only four of us moderating everything
Community: so ask people to be
adminsmodsBeehaw admins: i can’t understand a goddamn word you’re saying
Edit: meant to say mods not admins
You are now banned from participating in Beehaw
lol, that’s not the point dude.
“Only 4 of us moderating”
“Refuses to add mods meanwhile accepting 1000s of applications to join and building said community in a federated space where anyone outside their instance can participate”
Yep, definitely well planned out by those folks hahaha.
It doesn’t make sense for moderators to have full admin access. Lemmy allows multiple moderators to a work a community, and BeeHaw just needs to do that.
Yeah that was my mistake, I meant to say mods, not admins
I personally find beehaw’s moderation weird, I get that you’re trying to create a safe and regulated space, but you simple can’t do that with 4 mods on the entire instance. I do think that their decision to jump to defederation is a result of these 4 people being overworked and simply not having the time to rationally evaluate the situation.
if they want to continue like this they’ll have to evaluate on whether to appoint proper mods to their communities or just decide to change their stance on “safe” content.
For reference to anyone who doesn’t know, Beehaw blocks around 400 instances. I’m assuming a lot of them are troublesome stuff (like some illegal shit), I’m fine with those blocks. But I personally got confused by them banning Lemmy World, Shitjustworks, and the small instances that have bot accounts. For the latter it seems to just be private instances where bots signed up cus of open sign ups. Like it doesn’t seem the owners of those mall instances wanted the bots. The bots just signed up and the owners didn’t realize. Also, from my understanding, from what I read in some comments here, they even defederated from a place that doesn’t federate (i.e. it was meaningless to block). I saw this in comments about the Lemmyworld defederation. The site seems to be hexbear, which from what I can see at a glance seems to be a refugee site for the previous r/ChapoTrapHouse subreddit, which no longer exists on reddit. Idk what the culture is on that site, but I find it weird to ban a place that doesn’t even federate.
Most of Beehaw’s blocks are “generic ActivityPub assholes”, which, before the Reddit migration, was really just the worst of the worst of Mastodon, Pleroma, Soapbox, and Miss/Calc/???Key instances, with the occasional PeerTube thrown in.
They likely just imported one of the common blocklists and moved on with their lives, which really should be “how to secure your community 101” but most Lemmy admins haven’t seem to have gotten the memo yet.
I’m patiently waiting for the day those assholes realize most of Lemmy is open ground for them to shit in, boy that’s gonna be a fun few days.
Got a suggested blocklist handy?
https://codeberg.org/oliphant/blocklists/src/branch/main/blocklists. Feel free to pick a tier depending on the community you’re building. Tier0 is basically “the bare minimum” but you may want the others depending on the community you’re building up.
IIRC Lemmy doesn’t have a way of importing blocklists directly, so you’ll either have to whip up a quick script to do so or manually add things by hand, which is tedious and you will give up.
Yeah, if anyone has a list of known dicks it’d be good to get them out early.
Yeah, like I said I don’t mind those. Although, I thought some of them couldn’t talk with Lemmy, hence the confusion. I’m mostly concerned by the other examples that I mentioned.
I think Beehaw have a fine idea.
I think they picked the wrong platform for it.
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The platform allows for people to curate their instances into smaller communities if that is what they are after. They found the platform and for some reason people are mad at them for doing it. Their goal is to create a small safe and welcoming place. To do so they will inherently have a smaller community and that’s okay.
Honestly, I respect their decision but at the same time I wonder why they didn’t create a standalone unfederated from the get go.
If you want to keep the community small and tightly nit it’s just not compatible with the federation system. Now people got invested in some beehaw communities only to end up disconnected from them.
Still, it’s not like there is a guide for this. We are all learning how to make the federation work. I hope we can keep it civil toward instances that choose to defederate.
We are all invested in the same thing: Making Lemmy successful.
Isn’t a lot of Beehaws complaints the lack of moderation on other instances, not specifically their own?
If they’re struggling with managing their own content, they certainly shouldn’t have to worry about content from other instances. Any instance that hasn’t managed to sort out their own moderation should be defederated until they figure it out.
Every individual community inside each instance should have its own set of moderators or it should not exist.
Thank you for pointing this out. Almost all of the complaints I’ve seen are coming from the instances that were defederated rather than from within the Beehaw community. You can verify this yourself by reading the comments on their discussion threads about the matter. It’s almost like the users of Beehaw agree with the decision otherwise they would have left for another instance.
Reddit admins made a unilateral decision a bunch of us didn’t like and now we’re all here on Lemmy.
Why are people acting like Lemmy instances are any different?
There doesn’t seem to be many moderation tools for people who don’t own the instance
Yet. Sync for Lemmy should be coming out in 4~ weeks and Memmy is heavily inspired by Apollo and is being developed fast.
Though I wouldn’t expect mod tools in their first release.
I like Mlem as an Apollo successor more than Memmy (used both)
Memmy and Mlem are both doing pretty well - it’s been hard to say which was better in the past, but lately I’ve been preferring Mlem more due to some really cool updates. It could very well swing back the other way though.
Funny! I’ve found I like Memmy more. Maybe I’ll have to try it again.
I’m heavily preferring Memmy to any other app I’ve tried. It looks and feels great, and the devs are all awesome
I’m alternating between Memmy and Mlem. They’re both great but I also prefer Memmy at the moment. The ability to tap on a picture and have it go full screen is just so useful.
They had a big update recently
Even if you own an instance, the tools are non-existent.
Some basics things that should be present but aren’t:
- A user directory for search and deletion
- Possibility to block communities for your whole instance
- Basic statistics. Both on the community and instance level
- Possibility to mute a user without banning them
- Allow creating a community but only after admin approval (right now it’s free for all or admin only)
- Easy access to server logs without having to dig directly inside the hosting server
- Importing block/allow lists for federations using a file or url
- Adding an administrator from the server admin UI
The API is also lacking in a way that some of those things are not possible without deploying your own API talking directly with the postgress database.
For example, if you wanted to see upvote/downvotes for each individual users, the data to calcultate it is in the database but the Lemmy API doesn’t provide that functionality.
While Lemmy is great as a platform, the management side of is glueing everything together just enough to not let it implode.
My team and I are planning to start working on an AutoMod bot in the near future. It’s going to be built with our custom instance in mind, but the code will he open source for everyone to use.
I can code, but I’ve never been a moderator. What kind of mod tools do you want?
EDIT: More discussion about mod tools: https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/issues/3281
Fricking flairs, they’re very important in the communities that I’m moderating. With an ability to set multiple flairs at once because on reddit you can set only one which sucks because some posts can fit criteria to get 2 or more flairs.
Here’s a relevant GH issue: https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/issues/317
I’ve seen this and all related gh issues, but I didn’t see anyone working on it yet sadly.
I am working on it! My team and I are working on this issue as we speak (I literally tabbed out of VS Code to answer this) and we plan to roll them out to our modded instance in a matter of days, it’s our top priority.
Extending support for this feature to the wider lemmy codebase is not paramount to our roadmap, but we will certainly make a pull request once we are done. If the lemmy devs will like our implementation and decide to adopt it we will definitely be very glad to help them doing so.
EDIT, 10 days after: only now I see that the links was about post flairs, not user flairs. To clarify, I am working on user flair, no idea if and who is working on post flairs.
Making draft PRs, even if they don’t work yet, might be a good way of demonstrating that you’re working on something. Or do you get too much useless feedback when you do?
I never considered doing that, actually. I always felt like PRs where only useful when you actually had something to show, otherwise you are just spamming a project with useless ideas and "what if"s.
But this is also my first time contributing to an open source project. Learning experience.
It unfortunately depends much upon the community/person administrating the repository. If I’m worried about that, I tend to just make a post in /Discussion linking to my private fork.
Thank you so much for helping this platform grow. 🔥
Yea I think it’s still in “discussion mode.” I don’t really know how the project is managed or what the issue lifecycle looks like. AFAICT there isn’t any kind of RFC process, you just discuss in a GH issue until one of the maintainers gives the green light for someone to make a PR.
okay, let’s talk turkey. let’s define some requirements for the mod tools, and then we can start talking about how to satisfy those requirements.
Yea this is really important, and also we need a way to moderate the moderators so we don’t end up with the “super” mods we saw on Reddit…
Just contacting admins of your instance would do, they have the ability to remove and appoint new mods.
this is called “meta-moderation” and is a good idea @notbabayaga@lemmy.world :) it’s part of the Santa Clara Principles of transparent moderation (https://santaclaraprinciples.org/)
Interesting
That’s what democracy is for, right?
Has this ever happened? From what I can tell asking people to fix their issues is the first step, and defederation only happens when they can’t/won’t fix them yet
Not sure if there’s any lore behind it but I’ve also seen this. The beehaw admins seem to have an habit of making problems go away by pressing the magic button.
Yeah, after reading that I think the defederation was a quite serious mistake on their part that will probably cause a lot of people to abandon their instance.
Who defederated now?
Nobody de-federated. People saw that there was a the_Donald community on sh.itjust.works + a lot of people from said server defending it (“just ignore it bro”). That triggered probably bad memories ala spez defending t_D because of “VaLuABlE DiSCuSsIoN”, while they brigaded and harrased countless people during their time on Reddit. Some people got a little bit carried away and demanded de-federation and a couple of trolls throw gazoline in the fire.
A community does not have a right to exist on a certain person’s server. They should delete The_Donald and move on.
The community got deleted by the admin.
Based.
It got deleted quite quickly. By the time I saw the local community post about it it was already gone.
Nobody de-federated
Beehaw defederated sh.itjust.works and I think Lemmy.world
Nobody de-federated
Please, Curb Your Enthusiasm.
Yeah but it was before the story with T_D happened and for different reasons
This is one of the personal fears I have about society’s where ‘the mob’ decides. Most people haven’t had their fate decided by a mob before and so might not know what this means or how it pans out most of the time.
I believe it is imperative that we have something in place to avoid mob actions - not a central authority per say but possibly a collective code we all believe in and abide by. We could perhaps establish what is (un)acceptable on a fediversal (universal) scale and what is (un)acceptable on a local instances (instances decide this themselves obv.)
In the future we might need Lemmy/ActivityPub to be able to define posts/accounts/communities that are accessible across the Fediverse and those that are only accessible to users of that instance.
Hence we wouldn’t have the problem where for instance: members of one instance think pictures of furries is not NSFW content but members from other instances think it is
I’ll never understand this moral handwringing about mob rule.
No one is burning witches. There’s no value to having a bunch of neo-nazi perspectives. They’re not useful, productive or worth platforming.
This. No fucking nazis that should be banned automatically whenever they try to start any community.
Fuckers can stay on true social or whatever the hell trump calls his platform and stay away from Lemmy.
You realize a major purpose of federation is so that content can’t be censored so easily by a central authority? This isn’t Twitter. If you need a safe space, the fediverse isn’t for you.
This is exactly the space for creating all sorts of spaces. No one needs to federate with you here. It’s up to instance owners and there’s plenty of instances.
Nazi trash can stay entirely off any instance that I’m on and if they show up and nothing is done I’ll go elsewhere. Period.
You don’t even recognize the danger you are complicit in creating.
Niemöller recognized it, when he said:
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
Thomas Paine recognized it when he said:
He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.
The problem with participating in a mob that attacks Nazis is that the mob isn’t done when the Nazis are all dead. The mob is still around, still looking for enemies to oppress.
The idea that it is socially acceptable to oppress an undesirable group is the exact principle that allowed the German people to promote the mob rule of the Nazi party. By the time they realized what they had created, they were forced to support it, even if they were horrified by what they were doing. Anyone questioning the continued need for their mob found themselves an enemy of it, and thus targeted by it.
That’s the problem with fascism. It is an extremely attractive idea. Fascism arises when we as a society determine we have the right to suppress anything we don’t like, without bothering to consider that nobody is universally liked. When fascism runs out of enemies, it manufactures new ones out of its least liked supporters. The mob you create today is the same mob that will be lynching you tomorrow.
The solution that our grandparents and great-grandparents came up with reiterates Niemöller and Paine. They developed a philosophical principle best summarized as:
I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
When Nazis are talking, the appropriate response is to talk back, not prohibit them from talking. When we ignore them, censor them, or impose silence on them, they win.
You could read Karl Popper’s The Paradox of Tolerance.
There’s no need to debate Nazism or Fascism with Nazis and Fascists. The education on it should come from historians and those otherwise educated in it.
When we censor Nazis we win. When we let them into our spaces we lose.
I’ve read it. I reject it.
The critical flaw in Popper’s paradox is the assumption that society can accurately recognize and agree on the group of people who deserve to be shunned and silenced. Anyone subscribing to Popper’s paradox can claim it supports their own position against the other. That’s why it is a paradox.
Popper’s paradox suggests that the only solution to fascism is another form of fascism. He suggests the only way to deal with an authoritarian regime is with another authoritarian regime. When both sides subscribe to Popper, they ultimately attack each other, to the death.
The Free Speech absolutist position does not have this problem. When both sides subscribe to free speech, they defend eachother, to the death.
I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend you while you say it, even as I yell at the top of my lungs that you are wrong and that nobody should be listening to you.
Karl Popper presented the paradox not to justify intolerance of the intolerant, but to show how reasonable, rational people were able to justify the atrocities committed in their name. Like all paradoxes, when we find that Popper’s model is paradoxical, we must recognize that absurdity. We must not adopt it, but reject the model that created it, and find a new method that doesn’t conclude in paradox. Free speech absolutism is one such approach.
You simultaneously reject it and believe he wrote it to prove how unsustainable it is?
You’re entirely wrong. No ideas need to be shared where people don’t want to hear them. You are free to speak and I am free to not listen. It’s truly a beautiful approach.
Edit: I’d also like to add that the paradox Popper is referring to is that of tolerating intolerance. That’s the paradox.
See this post of mine which was prompted by a mastodon dev reviewing moderation tools on lemmy and kbin:
I had a conversation with the reviewer, and my impression was that headway could be made without too much difficulty.
If anyone’s keen, and willing to work in rust or Typescript, there’s probably work you could be doing right now to make better moderation tools.
I know typescript but not rust. Ive been hearing a lot of chatter about Matrix - do I install and join a server to get plugged into the dev community for lemmy? Or where should I be hanging out to get an idea of what needs to be done? Github?
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Github, yes … there’s a “code” link at the bottom of the page … that’ll take you to their github.
Otherwise, they are on matrix … i’ve been there once and they were responsive. Probably a good place to go if you want to start contributing. I don’t know where a link to it is … maybe on the Github or the docs section for contributing?
Good on you, though, for wanting to contribute!!
An iOS app would be wonderful. It’s the only thing stopping me from being a full-time Lemmy user right now.
There is one called Mlem. You can find it and other apps on the website: https://join-lemmy.org/apps
Seems to be country locked, not available in Germany at least.
Maybe this one is easier to install? https://lemmy.ml/c/memmy
You have to use testflight to install either atm, neither are on the app store
There is also Memmy: https://lemmy.ml/c/memmy
don’t worry, they’re coming. a bunch of bigger third party app Devs have said they will make an app for Lemmy, and that will include iOS apps as well I’m sure. it’s just a matter of time.
There is an app called Memmy (which I’m current using!) which both looks good and is good! If on iOS, just go download “TestFlight” and find the website that has the invite for Memmy or Mlem as the user before me mentioned.
This should be a working invite if you’re wanting to try it out: https://testflight.apple.com/join/xQfmkJhc
Ribbits
Random auto scrolling
Do you mean the new post that used to popped to the top of the page and it made scroll issues? Because I think it was fixed at v0.18
Probably. Unfortunately, not all instances have migrated to 0.18 yet. I know lemm.ee hasn’t, because the admin is rightfully worried about the captcha removal.
Let’s get some basics. When you try to sign up to an instance it should tell you if the username is already in use!
Have you filed a request at GitHub?
Have you filed reports at GitHub?
Defed is the new Ban Hammer
Except instead of banning people for no reason you ban entire servers for no reason
Think of it as banning an entire server until they clean up that server.
Until there are tools to more granularly ban specific comminities or users, it’s the only thing you can do if you don’t want nazis.
Except so far it’s not been used to ban nazis it’s been used to ban servers just for being too big, so users get banned from communities for the crime of joining a popular server
What was Elmo supposed to have been doing in the innocent interpretation of this image? I swear they had to have known.
Pretty sure it’s not from an episode of sesame street but something parodying it
All of the memes and threads I’ve seen complaining about this are from the instances that are being defederated, rather than from within Beehaw itself. In fact if you go and read the threads where they discuss these changes it seems the majority of the Beehaw users are okay with this.
Reddit admins made a unilateral change that the majority didn’t like and now we’re all here on Lemmy, why is everyone suddenly acting like Lemmy instances are any different?
A lot of the requests I’ve seen is people trying to create another echo chamber
It’s decentralised. Echo chambers will fundamentally be more profound.
