It’s only “voting bad” if you only care about this one, single issue. Compared to Biden or Trump, Harris’s platform includes a lot of things I really want, so I’m going to vote for her - not because I have to, but because I want to. Yes, I’d greatly prefer her stance on Gaza was different, but this is not a Biden situation where I’m voting for him because there’s no other option. If you refuse to vote for someone because you don’t like literally 100% of their platform, you’ll never cast another vote in your life. I’m honestly kind of tired of this “If you vote democrat, you’re supporting genocide!” stance; it’s tired, reductionist, and not helpful to anyone. Even if you convince enough people to vote third party that Trump wins, does that help Gaza? No, it makes the situation worse.
I support Ukraine, but FWIW I don’t think Russia has killed 40 000 Ukrainian civilians these past few years, and many of the soldiers who died were former civilians who were conscripted.
This whole discourse reminds me of some pro-Bush Jr. Family members who were complaining during those elections that the fiscal plan they liked (which caused the crash in 2008, but whatever) had been tied to trying to appease the single issue voters who cared about limiting abortion and LGBTQIA+ rights. This all or noting stance about Gaza feels just as singularly focused as those wingnuts.
Well, this is an American election? There’s only so much one president can do about the actions of another sovereign nation. In fact, a lot of progressives wish the US would do less
And what happens when Egypt starts thinking Israel looks weak? Let them use Gaza as a reason to attack? I’m very against what Israel is doing, but this is very reductive. It’s foolish to think that peace in the middle east is not a nuanced subject
And what happens when Egypt starts thinking Israel looks weak? Let them use Gaza as a reason to attack?
So we should just keep selling them weapons that we know they will use to commit genocide on the off chance that Egypt would invade a nuclear-armed nation?
I’m very against what Israel is doing
They’re not doing it quickly or brutally enough for you?
All Harris voters understand FPTP means one of two people are winning. Everyone else loves genocide and wants the guy who bombed the fuck out of Yemen to help Israel “finish the job” in Gaza.
A secret third option where we use the leverage we have, withholding our votes, to pressure the administration and campaign to move its position from “Don’t like it, but we gotta do genocide 🤷🏼♂️” to “Ok we will stop giving the genociders weapons and pressure them to withdraw from Palestine”.
Y’know… Maybe before we lose that leverage and they inevitably take our votes for granted because we spent all our energy justifying why voting for the blue genociders was better than voting for the more enthusiastic red genociders.
There is no secret third option. One of the two will win. You will, in fact, lose your leverage when Mr. Dictator Day One replaces the entire federal staff with Federalist Society cronies and the guys urging to deport protestors have control over the House and Senate.
Of course, you love all the genocide and want that to go faster in Gaza, faster in Ukraine, faster domestically.
I admit my comment might not have been the clearest but I do feel like you’re talking past my point.
To reiterate: If you decide to ‘vote blue no matter who’ you are granting the DNC your vote, which at the moment is one of the few points of leverage you have to get them to change policy positions, for nothing. But I admit, maybe getting them to change policy positions isn’t your aim. I don’t know for sure.
It is my aim, and the aim of the uncommitted movement and Palestinian liberation groups in the country as a whole. Using that leverage, by telling the DNC we will not simply grant them our vote unless they put forward policy positions which we favor, is good politics. It has little to do with whether Trump wants to do away with elections and declare himself God Emperor. You can still vote for the democrats come November, but refusing to use said leverage and/or running cover for the DNC by asking that criticisms are withheld until after the election is at best poor strategy or shows that you don’t care about the policy changing.
Your comment was clear. You are on a high horse and privileged enough that you don’t think another Donald admin will harm you. You want to smugly tell everyone who doesn’t share your exact viewpoint that they support genocide.
You can tell the Dems whatever you want, uncommitted, fine, I don’t give a shit. I hope it works, what is happening over there is despicable.
However, when it comes down to it, you either are opposed to increasing genocide and will vote against Donald in November. Or you are a genocide lover and will assist him taking over, filling every federal position with a crony, and ending even FPTP as a method for change.
@barsquid That sums up my feeling about this kind of rightwing talking point too. It almost never comes from an honest place. So I learned from reddit, and just mute the shills. To the tune of AC/DC…
‘rightwing talking point’ yeah cause the right winger is me calling for an arms embargo and an end to the occupation of Palestine by Israel - famed left-wing progressive country… get real
Every single administration - republican and democrat - this imperialist, neocolonial, warmongering country has had for my entire life has harmed me or people I love in some way shape or form, please do not assume what privileges I may or may not hold. It’s fine if you disagree with me, but don’t pretend to know me.
I’ve only ever voted dem, and seeing how this country is going I will probably be forced to continue to do so. But dear god stop letting the DNC move further and further right every 4 years and get away with it by just echoing ‘the other guy is worse’ calls. It doesn’t make you look like you actually have principles it makes it seem like you treat elections like team sports.
Policy is what matters, policy can be changed, and your vote is one cudgel you can use to get policy change made BEFORE the election. History has shown the Democrats have not gotten pushed towards better positions after being elected, no matter how much people in 2020 screamed to “push biden left” once he got in office. I mean FFS democrats are now cheering on asylum bans and a worsening of the treatment of immigrants at the border, and somehow immigrants like me are supposed to still vote for them with a smile on my face?
I really dislike how liberals handle criticism from the left. It’s too often some vague call for ‘pragmatism’ or ‘just shut up and vote blue or you want the other guy to win’. Or ‘damn you’re criticizing the dems? must be a russian bot or a secret trumpist’. Just… christ just at least admit the choices in front of us every election are ASS.
“It’s fine if you disagree with me, but don’t pretend to know me.” If you took your own advice instead of smugly telling people what they support or not then we wouldn’t be having an argument at all.
So we should play chicken with fascism in the hopes that Kamala will pinky swear to do something once she’s in charge?
Well gosh, that would fix everything.
But wait, are you willing to pinky swear you aren’t just trying to help get Trump reelected? Because we wouldn’t want to get tricked into letting trump get elected again if you are a secret fascist.
Your account has 7 total comments, all of which are about this issue, so… Sorry, but your arguments have essentially zero weight. You look exactly like a pro-Trump shill trying to masquerade as a democrat.
There are two possible outcomes in this election. Neither are good for Gaza, but one is worse. Voting third party (if you’d normally vote democrat) is indirectly supporting Trump, who is the worse of the two options for Gaza.
Voting 3rd party to try and make a point is not helping the situation.
If you want to actually make a difference, get out there and protest, write letters to politicians, make phone calls - make sure they know what you want. People voting 3rd party doesn’t do any good if they don’t know why those people are voting 3rd party.
They could look back on this in 4 years, see a lot of third party voters, and assume it’s because Harris isn’t white, or because she’s a woman, or because of any number of other reasons. The only way they’ll know what your opinion is on this matter is if you tell them.
I wouldn’t even say it’s “indirect” anymore. These people know exactly what they are doing, and the blood of millions of Palestinians will be on their hands if Harris loses.
Protests have been getting a ton of media attention. I wouldn’t say they’re ineffective at all. I’d say they’re the most effective thing you could be doing.
It’s getting it in the public eye, though. That’s something. Politicians would much rather it was just swept under the rug, and the high-profile protests are making sure that doesn’t happen.
Voting for Trump or not voting is a direct threat to the very existence of the Palestinian people. You think you’re making an ethics statement when in reality you’re just ensuring that Netanyahu can finish the job unmolested.
you’re just ensuring that Netanyahu can finish the job unmolested
Biden is already giving Netanyahu everything Netanyahu needs to exterminate the Gazans, and I don’t really think it matters if Biden molests Netanyahu while he does it.
If Trump wins, you will find out very fast what the difference between him and Biden is with respect to Isreal/Palestine. There are two possible outcomes in November, and one of them will lead to the absolute extermination of the Palestinian people. If you vote for Trump or you do not vote, you are directly complicit in this.
But frankly, I don’t believe you that you give a shit about Palestinian people. So I’m not going to bother continuing with this.
I don’t know what happened, but Blahaj used to be a good instance. Now it’s just full if dumbass tankies with no grasp of nuance making other progressives look bad.
Your bad faith argument will not deter me. You are right, there are other things to worry about. I fear for the women in my life that may no longer have access to the reproductive health care they deserve. I fear for my LGBT friends who may no longer have the rights they deserve. I’ll easily turn a blind eye to something happening a half a world away so the people nearest and dearest to me can continue to exist. I hope for the safety of Palestinians - but I will not cut off my nose to spite my face.
Yikes. I’m disengaging now. You’ve baselessly called me a white supremacist, insulted the company in which I keep, put words in my mouth, and downplayed very real threats because the threat isn’t a bomb. It’s clear you can’t be communicated with. See you in another life!
I’m saying you think it’s normal to be unconcerned about brown people being genocided because you’ve grown up in a white supremacist culture which continues to portray non-Western cultures as primitive savages who ought to be subordinated by white people, with force if necessary.
Even if you convince enough people to vote third party that Trump wins, does that help Gaza? No, it makes the situation worse.
In the short term, yes, but when the next Gaza occurs—and if history is any guide, there will probably be another Gaza—the Democrats will think twice.
Besides, in 2020 if 1 million Californians who voted for Biden instead voted for Trump, the 55 EVs would still go to Biden. Presumably if any self-identified “political progressive” in California votes for Harris, wt:thon will probably be voting out of ignorance. Ditto, say, one in a very red state.
It’s only “voting bad” if you only care about this one, single issue. Compared to Biden or Trump, Harris’s platform includes a lot of things I really want, so I’m going to vote for her - not because I have to, but because I want to. Yes, I’d greatly prefer her stance on Gaza was different, but this is not a Biden situation where I’m voting for him because there’s no other option. If you refuse to vote for someone because you don’t like literally 100% of their platform, you’ll never cast another vote in your life. I’m honestly kind of tired of this “If you vote democrat, you’re supporting genocide!” stance; it’s tired, reductionist, and not helpful to anyone. Even if you convince enough people to vote third party that Trump wins, does that help Gaza? No, it makes the situation worse.
Really, all those third party candidates are fine with Ukraine losing, as I understand it, so it’s a specific killing that’s bad.
I support Ukraine, but FWIW I don’t think Russia has killed 40 000 Ukrainian civilians these past few years, and many of the soldiers who died were former civilians who were conscripted.
The fucking irony.
This whole discourse reminds me of some pro-Bush Jr. Family members who were complaining during those elections that the fiscal plan they liked (which caused the crash in 2008, but whatever) had been tied to trying to appease the single issue voters who cared about limiting abortion and LGBTQIA+ rights. This all or noting stance about Gaza feels just as singularly focused as those wingnuts.
So 40 000 innocent Gazans will be killed for the greater good.
Well, this is an American election? There’s only so much one president can do about the actions of another sovereign nation. In fact, a lot of progressives wish the US would do less
Stop. Selling. Them. Weapons.
And what happens when Egypt starts thinking Israel looks weak? Let them use Gaza as a reason to attack? I’m very against what Israel is doing, but this is very reductive. It’s foolish to think that peace in the middle east is not a nuanced subject
So we should just keep selling them weapons that we know they will use to commit genocide on the off chance that Egypt would invade a nuclear-armed nation?
They’re not doing it quickly or brutally enough for you?
Oh dang u right, it ain’t nuanced, my b
If you want to pretend that there’s nuance to genocide, it’s because you want to drag it out for as long as possible.
Selling? I think you mean giving.
Not all Kamala voters are pro genocide. But all Kamala voters decided that genocide wasn’t a deal breaker.
All Harris voters understand FPTP means one of two people are winning. Everyone else loves genocide and wants the guy who bombed the fuck out of Yemen to help Israel “finish the job” in Gaza.
A secret third option where we use the leverage we have, withholding our votes, to pressure the administration and campaign to move its position from “Don’t like it, but we gotta do genocide 🤷🏼♂️” to “Ok we will stop giving the genociders weapons and pressure them to withdraw from Palestine”.
Y’know… Maybe before we lose that leverage and they inevitably take our votes for granted because we spent all our energy justifying why voting for the blue genociders was better than voting for the more enthusiastic red genociders.
There is no secret third option. One of the two will win. You will, in fact, lose your leverage when Mr. Dictator Day One replaces the entire federal staff with Federalist Society cronies and the guys urging to deport protestors have control over the House and Senate.
Of course, you love all the genocide and want that to go faster in Gaza, faster in Ukraine, faster domestically.
I admit my comment might not have been the clearest but I do feel like you’re talking past my point.
To reiterate: If you decide to ‘vote blue no matter who’ you are granting the DNC your vote, which at the moment is one of the few points of leverage you have to get them to change policy positions, for nothing. But I admit, maybe getting them to change policy positions isn’t your aim. I don’t know for sure.
It is my aim, and the aim of the uncommitted movement and Palestinian liberation groups in the country as a whole. Using that leverage, by telling the DNC we will not simply grant them our vote unless they put forward policy positions which we favor, is good politics. It has little to do with whether Trump wants to do away with elections and declare himself God Emperor. You can still vote for the democrats come November, but refusing to use said leverage and/or running cover for the DNC by asking that criticisms are withheld until after the election is at best poor strategy or shows that you don’t care about the policy changing.
Your comment was clear. You are on a high horse and privileged enough that you don’t think another Donald admin will harm you. You want to smugly tell everyone who doesn’t share your exact viewpoint that they support genocide.
You can tell the Dems whatever you want, uncommitted, fine, I don’t give a shit. I hope it works, what is happening over there is despicable.
However, when it comes down to it, you either are opposed to increasing genocide and will vote against Donald in November. Or you are a genocide lover and will assist him taking over, filling every federal position with a crony, and ending even FPTP as a method for change.
@barsquid That sums up my feeling about this kind of rightwing talking point too. It almost never comes from an honest place. So I learned from reddit, and just mute the shills. To the tune of AC/DC…
‘rightwing talking point’ yeah cause the right winger is me calling for an arms embargo and an end to the occupation of Palestine by Israel - famed left-wing progressive country… get real
Every single administration - republican and democrat - this imperialist, neocolonial, warmongering country has had for my entire life has harmed me or people I love in some way shape or form, please do not assume what privileges I may or may not hold. It’s fine if you disagree with me, but don’t pretend to know me.
I’ve only ever voted dem, and seeing how this country is going I will probably be forced to continue to do so. But dear god stop letting the DNC move further and further right every 4 years and get away with it by just echoing ‘the other guy is worse’ calls. It doesn’t make you look like you actually have principles it makes it seem like you treat elections like team sports.
Policy is what matters, policy can be changed, and your vote is one cudgel you can use to get policy change made BEFORE the election. History has shown the Democrats have not gotten pushed towards better positions after being elected, no matter how much people in 2020 screamed to “push biden left” once he got in office. I mean FFS democrats are now cheering on asylum bans and a worsening of the treatment of immigrants at the border, and somehow immigrants like me are supposed to still vote for them with a smile on my face?
I really dislike how liberals handle criticism from the left. It’s too often some vague call for ‘pragmatism’ or ‘just shut up and vote blue or you want the other guy to win’. Or ‘damn you’re criticizing the dems? must be a russian bot or a secret trumpist’. Just… christ just at least admit the choices in front of us every election are ASS.
“It’s fine if you disagree with me, but don’t pretend to know me.” If you took your own advice instead of smugly telling people what they support or not then we wouldn’t be having an argument at all.
So we should play chicken with fascism in the hopes that Kamala will pinky swear to do something once she’s in charge?
Well gosh, that would fix everything.
But wait, are you willing to pinky swear you aren’t just trying to help get Trump reelected? Because we wouldn’t want to get tricked into letting trump get elected again if you are a secret fascist.
Your account has 7 total comments, all of which are about this issue, so… Sorry, but your arguments have essentially zero weight. You look exactly like a pro-Trump shill trying to masquerade as a democrat.
Uhhh… whatever helps you cope I guess?
Even if I supported 99% of Harris’s agenda, if the remaining 1% is genocide, that’s gonna be a problem for me.
There are two possible outcomes in this election. Neither are good for Gaza, but one is worse. Voting third party (if you’d normally vote democrat) is indirectly supporting Trump, who is the worse of the two options for Gaza.
Voting 3rd party to try and make a point is not helping the situation.
If you want to actually make a difference, get out there and protest, write letters to politicians, make phone calls - make sure they know what you want. People voting 3rd party doesn’t do any good if they don’t know why those people are voting 3rd party.
They could look back on this in 4 years, see a lot of third party voters, and assume it’s because Harris isn’t white, or because she’s a woman, or because of any number of other reasons. The only way they’ll know what your opinion is on this matter is if you tell them.
I wouldn’t even say it’s “indirect” anymore. These people know exactly what they are doing, and the blood of millions of Palestinians will be on their hands if Harris loses.
Writing letters to politicians and making phone calls isn’t going to do shit, they only answer the money and we don’t have it.
So it’ll do as much as screaming into the void on Lemmy - got it!
Well, you have to vote for Harris, protests are ineffective, as is posting on lemmy.
Ever notice that the only option is always stfu?
Protests have been getting a ton of media attention. I wouldn’t say they’re ineffective at all. I’d say they’re the most effective thing you could be doing.
Yeah, just look at how that needle has moved from “unconditional support for genocide” to “unconditional support for genocide.”
It’s getting it in the public eye, though. That’s something. Politicians would much rather it was just swept under the rug, and the high-profile protests are making sure that doesn’t happen.
Voting for Trump or not voting is a direct threat to the very existence of the Palestinian people. You think you’re making an ethics statement when in reality you’re just ensuring that Netanyahu can finish the job unmolested.
Biden is already giving Netanyahu everything Netanyahu needs to exterminate the Gazans, and I don’t really think it matters if Biden molests Netanyahu while he does it.
If Trump wins, you will find out very fast what the difference between him and Biden is with respect to Isreal/Palestine. There are two possible outcomes in November, and one of them will lead to the absolute extermination of the Palestinian people. If you vote for Trump or you do not vote, you are directly complicit in this.
But frankly, I don’t believe you that you give a shit about Palestinian people. So I’m not going to bother continuing with this.
I don’t know what happened, but Blahaj used to be a good instance. Now it’s just full if dumbass tankies with no grasp of nuance making other progressives look bad.
I mean, I didn’t know Biden was giving handjobs to Netanyahu, but I’m not surprised either.
Google is your friend. Or you can just let everyone know that you have the vocabulary of a middle schooler without saying it.
You’re right, that was silly of me. I’m sure they’ve moved on to blowjobs by now.
I bet Biden takes the dentures out.
You’re a single-issue voter. That’s fine. But some of us aren’t.
Yeah, some of us are fine with letting genocide slide. There are other things to worry about, you know.
Your bad faith argument will not deter me. You are right, there are other things to worry about. I fear for the women in my life that may no longer have access to the reproductive health care they deserve. I fear for my LGBT friends who may no longer have the rights they deserve. I’ll easily turn a blind eye to something happening a half a world away so the people nearest and dearest to me can continue to exist. I hope for the safety of Palestinians - but I will not cut off my nose to spite my face.
So you can’t even accept that there are real people who genuinely care about the Gazans.
That says a lot about you and the company you keep. (And, to be fair, the entire white supremacist culture of the United States.)
I would bet dollars to dimes that your tune would be different if it were a white country being genocided.
You would never be this unconcerned about Ukraine.
The people near you are not in any of danger of being deliberately wiped out by American bombs. The people in Gaza are.
(But they’re brown people, so I understand why it’s hard for you to feel concerned.)
Yikes. I’m disengaging now. You’ve baselessly called me a white supremacist, insulted the company in which I keep, put words in my mouth, and downplayed very real threats because the threat isn’t a bomb. It’s clear you can’t be communicated with. See you in another life!
deleted by creator
I’m saying you think it’s normal to be unconcerned about brown people being genocided because you’ve grown up in a white supremacist culture which continues to portray non-Western cultures as primitive savages who ought to be subordinated by white people, with force if necessary.
Do you listen to yourself?
If genocide isn’t someone’s red line, they’re in no position to be voting.
In the short term, yes, but when the next Gaza occurs—and if history is any guide, there will probably be another Gaza—the Democrats will think twice.
Besides, in 2020 if 1 million Californians who voted for Biden instead voted for Trump, the 55 EVs would still go to Biden. Presumably if any self-identified “political progressive” in California votes for Harris, wt:thon will probably be voting out of ignorance. Ditto, say, one in a very red state.