Israel is a state actor that has not signed on to the ICC, just like the US. Hamas is a non-state actor over which the ICC claims jurisdiction, just like the Taliban and any number of other terrorist groups. The US is really afraid of setting a precedent here that might impact it in the future.
How specifically are US interests served by a genocide of Palestinians? They aren’t. The US doesn’t care about Palestine at all, but it would be better off if Israel weren’t doing the indefensible. The US just wants Israel as an ally to assist in projecting power in the Middle East.
I sympathize with the desire to end what Israel is doing, but the first step is understanding the national interests at play. It’s not an excuse for anything, but it’s necessary to understand the dynamics at play in order to try and change those dynamics.
The thing is, there are tons of US bases in the Middle East other than the ones in Israel. Qatar (who has their own moral issues, but is not actively commiting genocide), for example, has some of the largest US bases in the area. So, the question should be asked: do we really need to keep a country doing a genocide as our ally to maintain power projection in the Middle East? I think the US could get by just fine.
I think the US could get by just fine with no presence in the Middle East at all. But if we are going to be in the Middle East, Israel is a far more capable ally than Qatar. And what do we do if Qatar does something horrific tomorrow? Pack up and move to Saudi Arabia? Is there really anyplace in the world we can form serious alliances without unsavoury partners? Could we even ally with ourselves?
I think the US could be a lot more honest about what Israel is doing, and we could put a whole lot more pressure on them to stop doing it. We should be doing more of both, but our alliance is exactly what gives us the leverage to do that. That is, unless we want to get involved militarily. But if we are going to do that, there are plenty of other places in the world that are just as worthy.
Israel is doing something horrific (genocide) today, that’s the difference. As stated, those countries do have their own issues. But none are currently participating in a genocide of this scale.
And yes, I would prefer if we did pull out of being allied to countries that do genocide. We can also do other things, like not supporting them by giving them the weapons they need, without fully falling out. There’s a lot of options that we just aren’t doing, many more options than just military action. Israel will continue at least as long as the US is supplying weapons.
But the US can’t/won’t pick up and move it’s military bases every time the winds shift and someone else is committing atrocities.
I personally agree that I wish we were more selective with whom we form alliances. It’s not like Israel just started abusing Palestine last year anyways. That’s just not how foreign policy works today. There are other models that could be used, but the US isn’t likely to do so unilaterally. Right now, every country in the world makes foreign policy decisions based almost exclusively on their own interests and to maximize their power and influence.
Yes, I also agree the US can and should be doing more to pressure Netanyaho. Even in the current foreign policy landscape it’s pretty obvious that this genocide does not serve US interests. Biden is unfortunately a relic of the 80s/90s and is honestly not the president we should have elected. He’s miles better than Trump (who’s policies helped ignite this “war”), but that’s a low bar
The problem with this argument is that it requires people to want to understand. To them, and rightfully so, Genocide = Bad. The reality is the situation is complex on a worldwide scale, with many powers at play in the background. BUT that still doesn’t change that bad is happening. It only provides a reason for it, not justification.
There is also an excellent chance that there is information we are not privy to, and a much smaller chance that some greater good is being done by taking these stances. I just really doubt that’s the case. Either way, voters and large parts of the World are stuck. Here is the U.S. most of us know what we have to do and that leaves a bad taste in everyone’s mouth because many of us innately understand what is the morally right choice.
Still gonna vote for Biden. He HAS done some good and the alternative is a very obvious hard no. However, I am also seriously considering supporting his removal after he is voted in for a second term unless some significant and correct action is taken, or fundamentally groundbreaking information is released. That said, the literal long term best course of action those of us in the U.S. can take is the come together and for the next four years collectively lean on the voting booths and our representatives, and against corporations and large for-profit organizations.
Is your assertion that the US and Israel will no longer be allies if the US doesn’t support Netanyahu’s actions? Isn’t Israel’s government made up of a lot more than a single man’s actions, and doesn’t Israel have a lot more to lose by losing us as an ally than we do by losing them? I say we call their bluff and let this murderer go to jail. The Israeli government will clean up the mess he made and still be our ally.
The US and Israel are still allies even though the US hasn’t supported Netanyaho’s actions, so no. The fact that the US is still being an ally is the very evidence people are using to say the US supports Netanyaho.
Unfortunately, it’s not just Netanyaho as a bad apple. Netanyaho is massively unpopular, but the genocide is not. Israel’s actions in Gaza have broad support among citizens of Israel.
US interests have been served because of genocide. US interests are military defense contracts, testing and aligning police standards, and commercial development of settlements in Israel. Plus having military installations in the region, as you said. All of this is predicated on the apartheid and genocide of the Palestinian people. The dynamics are understood.
Exactly what percent of the US weapons industry output do you think has been dropped on Gaza? It’s almost nothing. The money is in stock piling high tech weaponry to counter major militaries. The sales that matter have nothing to do with Gaza.
We had military presence in Israel before the genocide. The apartheid is irrelevant to that presence. Why would the US care about “testing and aligning police standards”? You think Gaza serves as a model for something we want to do in the future? No, it’s a repeat of ineffective strategies and tactics we used in the past. We know how to do urban warfare, and we’re pretty damn good at knocking down buildings.
The US has counciled restraint on Israel since day one, and that is genuine. We have simply declined to force restraint through anything but the most meager of pressure campaigns. We ignore the injustices because doing otherwise is inconvenient. My purpose in saying so isn’t to exonerate the US, because I don’t think it does. I just think that understanding national motivations is important to trying to impact future policy.
I just want to put this general information out there to counter any potential misinformation pushers here or anywhere on this topic.
The ICC recognizes the Palestinian Authority and the State of Palestine as a state actor, not Hamas. And the PA ratified the Rome Statute in 2015, submitting their instrument of accession. Other partially recognized states are also free to join the Rome Statute if they choose, such as Taiwan, Kosovo, and more. The former is actually considering to do so as of last year in order to have more protections against China.
So, yes, Palestine is fully allowed recognition and jurisdiction by the ICC. This was helped by the UN making the State of Palestine an official non-member observer state in 2012.
we’re going to attack those investigating war crimes
Do they think this is a winning strategy while also admitting Israel is causing a famine?
Israel is a state actor that has not signed on to the ICC, just like the US. Hamas is a non-state actor over which the ICC claims jurisdiction, just like the Taliban and any number of other terrorist groups. The US is really afraid of setting a precedent here that might impact it in the future.
Long way of saying it is supporting and aiding genocide that it desperately wants the world to go back to ignoring like the last seven decades.
How specifically are US interests served by a genocide of Palestinians? They aren’t. The US doesn’t care about Palestine at all, but it would be better off if Israel weren’t doing the indefensible. The US just wants Israel as an ally to assist in projecting power in the Middle East.
I sympathize with the desire to end what Israel is doing, but the first step is understanding the national interests at play. It’s not an excuse for anything, but it’s necessary to understand the dynamics at play in order to try and change those dynamics.
The thing is, there are tons of US bases in the Middle East other than the ones in Israel. Qatar (who has their own moral issues, but is not actively commiting genocide), for example, has some of the largest US bases in the area. So, the question should be asked: do we really need to keep a country doing a genocide as our ally to maintain power projection in the Middle East? I think the US could get by just fine.
I think the US could get by just fine with no presence in the Middle East at all. But if we are going to be in the Middle East, Israel is a far more capable ally than Qatar. And what do we do if Qatar does something horrific tomorrow? Pack up and move to Saudi Arabia? Is there really anyplace in the world we can form serious alliances without unsavoury partners? Could we even ally with ourselves?
I think the US could be a lot more honest about what Israel is doing, and we could put a whole lot more pressure on them to stop doing it. We should be doing more of both, but our alliance is exactly what gives us the leverage to do that. That is, unless we want to get involved militarily. But if we are going to do that, there are plenty of other places in the world that are just as worthy.
Israel is doing something horrific (genocide) today, that’s the difference. As stated, those countries do have their own issues. But none are currently participating in a genocide of this scale.
And yes, I would prefer if we did pull out of being allied to countries that do genocide. We can also do other things, like not supporting them by giving them the weapons they need, without fully falling out. There’s a lot of options that we just aren’t doing, many more options than just military action. Israel will continue at least as long as the US is supplying weapons.
But the US can’t/won’t pick up and move it’s military bases every time the winds shift and someone else is committing atrocities.
I personally agree that I wish we were more selective with whom we form alliances. It’s not like Israel just started abusing Palestine last year anyways. That’s just not how foreign policy works today. There are other models that could be used, but the US isn’t likely to do so unilaterally. Right now, every country in the world makes foreign policy decisions based almost exclusively on their own interests and to maximize their power and influence.
Yes, I also agree the US can and should be doing more to pressure Netanyaho. Even in the current foreign policy landscape it’s pretty obvious that this genocide does not serve US interests. Biden is unfortunately a relic of the 80s/90s and is honestly not the president we should have elected. He’s miles better than Trump (who’s policies helped ignite this “war”), but that’s a low bar
The problem with this argument is that it requires people to want to understand. To them, and rightfully so, Genocide = Bad. The reality is the situation is complex on a worldwide scale, with many powers at play in the background. BUT that still doesn’t change that bad is happening. It only provides a reason for it, not justification.
There is also an excellent chance that there is information we are not privy to, and a much smaller chance that some greater good is being done by taking these stances. I just really doubt that’s the case. Either way, voters and large parts of the World are stuck. Here is the U.S. most of us know what we have to do and that leaves a bad taste in everyone’s mouth because many of us innately understand what is the morally right choice.
Still gonna vote for Biden. He HAS done some good and the alternative is a very obvious hard no. However, I am also seriously considering supporting his removal after he is voted in for a second term unless some significant and correct action is taken, or fundamentally groundbreaking information is released. That said, the literal long term best course of action those of us in the U.S. can take is the come together and for the next four years collectively lean on the voting booths and our representatives, and against corporations and large for-profit organizations.
Is your assertion that the US and Israel will no longer be allies if the US doesn’t support Netanyahu’s actions? Isn’t Israel’s government made up of a lot more than a single man’s actions, and doesn’t Israel have a lot more to lose by losing us as an ally than we do by losing them? I say we call their bluff and let this murderer go to jail. The Israeli government will clean up the mess he made and still be our ally.
The US and Israel are still allies even though the US hasn’t supported Netanyaho’s actions, so no. The fact that the US is still being an ally is the very evidence people are using to say the US supports Netanyaho.
Unfortunately, it’s not just Netanyaho as a bad apple. Netanyaho is massively unpopular, but the genocide is not. Israel’s actions in Gaza have broad support among citizens of Israel.
US interests have been served because of genocide. US interests are military defense contracts, testing and aligning police standards, and commercial development of settlements in Israel. Plus having military installations in the region, as you said. All of this is predicated on the apartheid and genocide of the Palestinian people. The dynamics are understood.
Exactly what percent of the US weapons industry output do you think has been dropped on Gaza? It’s almost nothing. The money is in stock piling high tech weaponry to counter major militaries. The sales that matter have nothing to do with Gaza.
We had military presence in Israel before the genocide. The apartheid is irrelevant to that presence. Why would the US care about “testing and aligning police standards”? You think Gaza serves as a model for something we want to do in the future? No, it’s a repeat of ineffective strategies and tactics we used in the past. We know how to do urban warfare, and we’re pretty damn good at knocking down buildings.
The US has counciled restraint on Israel since day one, and that is genuine. We have simply declined to force restraint through anything but the most meager of pressure campaigns. We ignore the injustices because doing otherwise is inconvenient. My purpose in saying so isn’t to exonerate the US, because I don’t think it does. I just think that understanding national motivations is important to trying to impact future policy.
Very well said.
I just want to put this general information out there to counter any potential misinformation pushers here or anywhere on this topic.
The ICC recognizes the Palestinian Authority and the State of Palestine as a state actor, not Hamas. And the PA ratified the Rome Statute in 2015, submitting their instrument of accession. Other partially recognized states are also free to join the Rome Statute if they choose, such as Taiwan, Kosovo, and more. The former is actually considering to do so as of last year in order to have more protections against China.
So, yes, Palestine is fully allowed recognition and jurisdiction by the ICC. This was helped by the UN making the State of Palestine an official non-member observer state in 2012.