Fuck her. She had her chance to support a fellow Progressive twice in a row and she chose to help the centrists both times rather than let someone else with the values she claimed to hold win. She’s either a liar or so unbelievably bad at strategic thinking that she belongs nowhere near politics.
Why did she run in 2020 though? Why didn’t she run in 2016 when Bernie and many of her supporters, myself included at the time, overwhelming supported her and begged her to run against Clinton (because we knew she was a terrible candidate that would cost us so much).
Why did she choose to run against Bernie when the policies they support are so similar.
Better question: what policies did she support that she didn’t think Bernie would enact that made her feel she needed to run against him? It was obvious he had a better chance than her that point, so why run against him?
I can’t speak for Elizabeth, or for many other supporters, but I can tell you why I supported her and not Bernie.
While I agree with so much of Bernies platform, I just wasn’t convinced he was a pragmatic candidate. When asked how he would handle Mitch McConnell, his response was essentially “Our revolution will take care of that- voters will listen to my message and I won’t have to deal with him”. That wasn’t really the question, and I just didn’t see that as a good answer. It solidified my thoughts that he was an idealist who was pushing for great things and was very much needed, but when it came to the cold realities of getting things done, he wasn’t someone who I thought could negotiate with republicans.
I also was very wary of populists. Bernie was very much a left wing Trump only in that he built a very deep cult of personality. Everyone who I talked to, every poll I saw, every post I read cemented the idea that it was Bernie or bust. Especially now as I am terrified of a Civil War 2 breaking out, the stance of non-negotiation is not only ineffective, but dangerous.
Idealists play a very important role in any movement. They create the energy needed to push things forward. However in the position of Commander in Chief, the virtue needed is restraint. I wanted to find a balance between progressive policy and pragmatic restraint, and so I saw Warren as the better of the two options. 4 years later I’m not as excited about her as I was then, and much of the details are fuzzy, but I know this is broadly what I thought.
I know in this thread there will be a lot of mud slinging and calling those who disagree with Bernie of 2020 or their supporters as stupid and/or evil, but that stance is exactly what I saw as divisive and dangerous in a time we need to avoid division and violence. Not all of it was Bernie’s fault, but I also know Idealists can push other idealists further to extremes. We are in a prisoners dilemma, where if we choose the path of getting everything, we will get nothing.
Edit Just to clarify, most of my friends supported Bernie, and they are not stupid. There are a million reasons why he was the best candidate, and many times he worked with republicans. At the time, I saw Warren as more of a 70/30 progressive and Bernie more 80/20.
I’ve read that explanation many times from many people, at this point. I’m honestly not yet compassionate enough to forgive y’all for what I believe to be willfull ignorance (no offense, srsly). That said, I totally respect your opinions and actions as a free fellow citizen.
My only question is, didn’t you care that she was obviously going to lose? Did really not that matter to you? (These are rhetorical, I guess, since if you could’ve you would’ve.)
It seems the real issue is a failure to understand how politics works in general, how it works in the US, and how it works in a two-party system. The answers to those questions should help you understand why so many people recognized that if Bernie didn’t win, we’d be in this exact position. No one can tell the future, but plenty of people have predicted exactly what has happened (from trump being president to the DNC propping up a corpse despite the will and wishes of voters and donors).
Finally, imo, if Warren was sincere (and wasn’t purposefully trying to hurt the chances of policies she supposedly supports being enacted) then she’s unbelievably incompetent, which I absolutely do not believe she is. That leaves only one alternative: she refused to run against Clinton because she knew she would have a good chance at beating her and didn’t want to run against here; instead, she preferred the certainty of a cabinet position (or less likely, support in her own presidential run 2-3 terms later - an insane bet, imo, given no party keeps the presidency a 3rd term in this country) and then she ran in 2020 to help Biden based on the same motives (support the DNC and they’ll support you). She sold out plain and simple.
I’m truly blown away that people don’t recognize that many progressives clearly said it would be a Bernie vs establishment DNC (i.e. Biden) rematch and it was. How do people not feel absolutely duped after all the BS 20+ candidates that were obvious distractions that then all joined to support Biden like fuckin clockwork. Fuck conspiracy theories, we literally watched this stuff happen and people still seem beyond confused. It’s so wild to me
Sorry for the rant in return. I wish I had friends I could talk to about this stuff, but my friends are mostly dumb as shit. They’re a fun crowd tho ;P
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. If Bernie actually got the presidency, his base would have abandoned him within 2 years.
Bernie would not have been able to implement his idealist utopia. Every step of the way, both Dems and Reps would have forced compromise. Whatever reached his desk to sign would have been so watered down that his fanatic progressive following would have thrown him under the bus like every other progressive hero to date.
I liked Bernie well enough, and would have preferred him to Hillary, because I thought he was a bit more electable. But he wasn’t the homerun that people made him out to be, and I suspect he would have been largely ineffective if elected. Because in the end, it takes a lot more than strong principles and good intentions to make things happen in DC.
I very much remember Liz was the last hold out on endorsing Biden. I was on her campaign.
Edit to add evidence:
Bernie Endorsed Biden Monday, April 13th 2020
Elizabeth followed 2 days later on Wednesday, April 15th 2020
Fuck her. She had her chance to support a fellow Progressive twice in a row and she chose to help the centrists both times rather than let someone else with the values she claimed to hold win. She’s either a liar or so unbelievably bad at strategic thinking that she belongs nowhere near politics.
Liz was splitting the left vote with Bernie, on purpose.
Liz is a traitor.
🐍🐍🐍🐍
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Why did she run in 2020 though? Why didn’t she run in 2016 when Bernie and many of her supporters, myself included at the time, overwhelming supported her and begged her to run against Clinton (because we knew she was a terrible candidate that would cost us so much).
Why did she choose to run against Bernie when the policies they support are so similar.
Better question: what policies did she support that she didn’t think Bernie would enact that made her feel she needed to run against him? It was obvious he had a better chance than her that point, so why run against him?
I can’t speak for Elizabeth, or for many other supporters, but I can tell you why I supported her and not Bernie.
While I agree with so much of Bernies platform, I just wasn’t convinced he was a pragmatic candidate. When asked how he would handle Mitch McConnell, his response was essentially “Our revolution will take care of that- voters will listen to my message and I won’t have to deal with him”. That wasn’t really the question, and I just didn’t see that as a good answer. It solidified my thoughts that he was an idealist who was pushing for great things and was very much needed, but when it came to the cold realities of getting things done, he wasn’t someone who I thought could negotiate with republicans.
I also was very wary of populists. Bernie was very much a left wing Trump only in that he built a very deep cult of personality. Everyone who I talked to, every poll I saw, every post I read cemented the idea that it was Bernie or bust. Especially now as I am terrified of a Civil War 2 breaking out, the stance of non-negotiation is not only ineffective, but dangerous.
Idealists play a very important role in any movement. They create the energy needed to push things forward. However in the position of Commander in Chief, the virtue needed is restraint. I wanted to find a balance between progressive policy and pragmatic restraint, and so I saw Warren as the better of the two options. 4 years later I’m not as excited about her as I was then, and much of the details are fuzzy, but I know this is broadly what I thought.
I know in this thread there will be a lot of mud slinging and calling those who disagree with Bernie of 2020 or their supporters as stupid and/or evil, but that stance is exactly what I saw as divisive and dangerous in a time we need to avoid division and violence. Not all of it was Bernie’s fault, but I also know Idealists can push other idealists further to extremes. We are in a prisoners dilemma, where if we choose the path of getting everything, we will get nothing.
Edit Just to clarify, most of my friends supported Bernie, and they are not stupid. There are a million reasons why he was the best candidate, and many times he worked with republicans. At the time, I saw Warren as more of a 70/30 progressive and Bernie more 80/20.
I’ve read that explanation many times from many people, at this point. I’m honestly not yet compassionate enough to forgive y’all for what I believe to be willfull ignorance (no offense, srsly). That said, I totally respect your opinions and actions as a free fellow citizen.
My only question is, didn’t you care that she was obviously going to lose? Did really not that matter to you? (These are rhetorical, I guess, since if you could’ve you would’ve.)
It seems the real issue is a failure to understand how politics works in general, how it works in the US, and how it works in a two-party system. The answers to those questions should help you understand why so many people recognized that if Bernie didn’t win, we’d be in this exact position. No one can tell the future, but plenty of people have predicted exactly what has happened (from trump being president to the DNC propping up a corpse despite the will and wishes of voters and donors).
Finally, imo, if Warren was sincere (and wasn’t purposefully trying to hurt the chances of policies she supposedly supports being enacted) then she’s unbelievably incompetent, which I absolutely do not believe she is. That leaves only one alternative: she refused to run against Clinton because she knew she would have a good chance at beating her and didn’t want to run against here; instead, she preferred the certainty of a cabinet position (or less likely, support in her own presidential run 2-3 terms later - an insane bet, imo, given no party keeps the presidency a 3rd term in this country) and then she ran in 2020 to help Biden based on the same motives (support the DNC and they’ll support you). She sold out plain and simple.
I’m truly blown away that people don’t recognize that many progressives clearly said it would be a Bernie vs establishment DNC (i.e. Biden) rematch and it was. How do people not feel absolutely duped after all the BS 20+ candidates that were obvious distractions that then all joined to support Biden like fuckin clockwork. Fuck conspiracy theories, we literally watched this stuff happen and people still seem beyond confused. It’s so wild to me
Sorry for the rant in return. I wish I had friends I could talk to about this stuff, but my friends are mostly dumb as shit. They’re a fun crowd tho ;P
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. If Bernie actually got the presidency, his base would have abandoned him within 2 years.
Bernie would not have been able to implement his idealist utopia. Every step of the way, both Dems and Reps would have forced compromise. Whatever reached his desk to sign would have been so watered down that his fanatic progressive following would have thrown him under the bus like every other progressive hero to date.
I liked Bernie well enough, and would have preferred him to Hillary, because I thought he was a bit more electable. But he wasn’t the homerun that people made him out to be, and I suspect he would have been largely ineffective if elected. Because in the end, it takes a lot more than strong principles and good intentions to make things happen in DC.