I dont necessarily disagree with any specific point, although I want to point out a key difference in perspective.
The seat belt analogy works for you but doesn’t for me, I think.
We can both agree driving is inherently dangerous, precautions need to be taken to increase safety for all even remotely likely scenarios.
Where we differ here is that, I believe you are saying that life, or at least being part of society, is inherently dangerous so we should make precautions to increase our own safety, which leads to self protection.
I dont have the same experience or perspective, to me life and society is inherently safe. Most of the crime and violence, in my opinion, is because unfortunately crime and violence actually work well when you have no other options. I’d rather focus on the reasons people have no other options.
When you said that I must live such a safe life to feel that way, I have to say that I do agreetpo an extent but most of the reason I feel this way is essentially faith based, that other people are generally good people across the board.
I haven’t had an easy life myself, but instead of it leading to what I call fear (you might call practical preparation) it led me to feel safer around people.
All of that said, I’m willing to throw out all 9f this calculus when it comes to women. I have no idea what thats like, and I imagine I would have a lot more fear and would likely be arguing much like yourself. I really dont know the answer for a woman who can’t feel safe no matter where she goes.
The seat belt analogy works for you but doesn’t for me, I think.
It isn’t perfect but it has its parallels to present the ideas in a relatable way.
We never get into car accidents, but being buckled up the many thousands of times you drive can save you the one time you DO, and it is likely not even your fault if you are a safe driver.
It even parallels the other side. A coworker said he doesn’t wear a seatbelt because he got into an accident and had to watch the guy he hit scream and burn to death because he couldn’t get near the car to save the guy, who’s seatbelt had jammed. Instead of having a ResqMe ziptied to his headrest post, or carrying a knife (gun control, psych eval, training) to solve the burning to death (gun being more harm than good to a safe, trained user) he doesn’t wear one at all (ban all guns) and is now more vulnerable to vehicular death…
We can both agree driving is inherently dangerous, precautions need to be taken to increase safety for all even remotely likely scenarios.
Where we differ here is that, I believe you are saying that life, or at least being part of society, is inherently dangerous so we should make precautions to increase our own safety, which leads to self protection.
I dont have the same experience or perspective, to me life and society is inherently safe. Most of the crime and violence, in my opinion, is because unfortunately crime and violence actually work well when you have no other options. I’d rather focus on the reasons people have no other options.
I think this is a huge difference! You live very safe, and let me be honest so do I now, but others don’t have that luxury. Guns in society are likely ONLY a source of potential danger for you. It makes your position reasonable. I look like I hurt people for a hobby and am as charismatic as a badger, outside of two+ guys with guns, I don’t think I am high on the “in danger” scale either…but I know so many that are…
Your last point there should be a huge part of the conversation. I despise seeing my side (pro-gun) say the BS line of “guns don’t kill people, people do”, then absolutely refusing to fund healthcare and mental health initiatives. Crime is most often a symptom and we seem to refuse to treat the disease. He needs more hospitals and safe care options, not more prisons. This line of argument is one that fuled my long journey away from conservativisim.
When you said that I must live such a safe life to feel that way, I have to say that I do agreetpo an extent but most of the reason I feel this way is essentially faith based, that other people are generally good people across the board.
I have seen that they aren’t. I am not one to “believe”, but I know it takes just one accident without that seatbelt to ruin a lot of lives. I am jaded for sure, and I know it sounds like fear mongering, but for the time being, there ARE monsters under the bed. The girl from before (21/22 at the time) had plenty of years left to be passed around as a sex slave overseas. Obtuse but not unheard of. However, from the investigation into her attack, the police are almost certain it was either the guy killing someone for a gang initiation (usually it is a group and against a rival gang, but I guess he was a new face they were watching in one of the locals), or it was just a spur of the moment murder or rape.
I haven’t had an easy life myself, but instead of it leading to what I call fear (you might call practical preparation) it led me to feel safer around people.
I know some folks like that. I don’t understand it, but you are definately not alone.
All of that said, I’m willing to throw out all 9f this calculus when it comes to women. I have no idea what thats like, and I imagine I would have a lot more fear and would likely be arguing much like yourself. I really dont know the answer for a woman who can’t feel safe no matter where she goes
Yeah. This one really sucks, and a gun with some training really is a solution. As someone that has trained with self-defense stuff, I won’t say to discard non-lethal, but if you put your life in the hands of them you must understand how very limited they are and how much they depend on your practice with them AND your ability to fight. I can’t even describe how much combat-stress messes with you motor skills and ability to think, it is ABSURD.
Just got pepper spray and tossed it on your keychain? Is it a mist? a jet? gel? What range? How does wind affect it, is there wind, what way is it blowing? What orientation indicators are on the container…does it have any? Are your keys in the bottom of your zipped up purse when someone jumps out from between cars while you were staring at your phone?
Ultimately, no guns with no crimes would be ideal. With crimes of passion in a world that needs a lot of fixing, regulated concealed carry handguns for people willing to train is a good seatbelt. I am against open carry of any kind, even tactically it is just stupid. I could justify carbines and shotguns for home defense and anti-wildlife use, but that isn’t a hill I would die on, if they get outlawed…whatever. I don’t think they should, but I won’t really defend them.
Both sides are so justifiable that there really has to be a happy medium that serves both causes even if neither side it super happy bout the outcome. I just wish we could focus our energies on other things at this point.
Yeah while I might say that your friend would be better of if the gang members had no access to guns, its not the reality: they do have guns right now.
I had not really considered concealed carry as more of a temporary solution to deal with how dangerous things currently can be, either situationally or if you become a target for whatever reason.
What would you think of some sort of requirement that someone prove they have exceptional risk to be able to have one for personal defense?
I’m not against the tool outright, power imbalances exist for sure and can be absurdly weighted.
We could probably go on and on with this, I think we both agree we want responsible well-trained use, and there has to be some way to either prove it or qualify for it.
Considering even police officers mess up gun safety from time to time, we should not just assume every average person is going to be able to figure it all out on their own.
I dont necessarily disagree with any specific point, although I want to point out a key difference in perspective.
The seat belt analogy works for you but doesn’t for me, I think.
We can both agree driving is inherently dangerous, precautions need to be taken to increase safety for all even remotely likely scenarios.
Where we differ here is that, I believe you are saying that life, or at least being part of society, is inherently dangerous so we should make precautions to increase our own safety, which leads to self protection.
I dont have the same experience or perspective, to me life and society is inherently safe. Most of the crime and violence, in my opinion, is because unfortunately crime and violence actually work well when you have no other options. I’d rather focus on the reasons people have no other options.
When you said that I must live such a safe life to feel that way, I have to say that I do agreetpo an extent but most of the reason I feel this way is essentially faith based, that other people are generally good people across the board.
I haven’t had an easy life myself, but instead of it leading to what I call fear (you might call practical preparation) it led me to feel safer around people.
All of that said, I’m willing to throw out all 9f this calculus when it comes to women. I have no idea what thats like, and I imagine I would have a lot more fear and would likely be arguing much like yourself. I really dont know the answer for a woman who can’t feel safe no matter where she goes.
It isn’t perfect but it has its parallels to present the ideas in a relatable way. We never get into car accidents, but being buckled up the many thousands of times you drive can save you the one time you DO, and it is likely not even your fault if you are a safe driver. It even parallels the other side. A coworker said he doesn’t wear a seatbelt because he got into an accident and had to watch the guy he hit scream and burn to death because he couldn’t get near the car to save the guy, who’s seatbelt had jammed. Instead of having a ResqMe ziptied to his headrest post, or carrying a knife (gun control, psych eval, training) to solve the burning to death (gun being more harm than good to a safe, trained user) he doesn’t wear one at all (ban all guns) and is now more vulnerable to vehicular death…
I think this is a huge difference! You live very safe, and let me be honest so do I now, but others don’t have that luxury. Guns in society are likely ONLY a source of potential danger for you. It makes your position reasonable. I look like I hurt people for a hobby and am as charismatic as a badger, outside of two+ guys with guns, I don’t think I am high on the “in danger” scale either…but I know so many that are… Your last point there should be a huge part of the conversation. I despise seeing my side (pro-gun) say the BS line of “guns don’t kill people, people do”, then absolutely refusing to fund healthcare and mental health initiatives. Crime is most often a symptom and we seem to refuse to treat the disease. He needs more hospitals and safe care options, not more prisons. This line of argument is one that fuled my long journey away from conservativisim.
I have seen that they aren’t. I am not one to “believe”, but I know it takes just one accident without that seatbelt to ruin a lot of lives. I am jaded for sure, and I know it sounds like fear mongering, but for the time being, there ARE monsters under the bed. The girl from before (21/22 at the time) had plenty of years left to be passed around as a sex slave overseas. Obtuse but not unheard of. However, from the investigation into her attack, the police are almost certain it was either the guy killing someone for a gang initiation (usually it is a group and against a rival gang, but I guess he was a new face they were watching in one of the locals), or it was just a spur of the moment murder or rape.
I know some folks like that. I don’t understand it, but you are definately not alone.
Yeah. This one really sucks, and a gun with some training really is a solution. As someone that has trained with self-defense stuff, I won’t say to discard non-lethal, but if you put your life in the hands of them you must understand how very limited they are and how much they depend on your practice with them AND your ability to fight. I can’t even describe how much combat-stress messes with you motor skills and ability to think, it is ABSURD. Just got pepper spray and tossed it on your keychain? Is it a mist? a jet? gel? What range? How does wind affect it, is there wind, what way is it blowing? What orientation indicators are on the container…does it have any? Are your keys in the bottom of your zipped up purse when someone jumps out from between cars while you were staring at your phone?
Ultimately, no guns with no crimes would be ideal. With crimes of passion in a world that needs a lot of fixing, regulated concealed carry handguns for people willing to train is a good seatbelt. I am against open carry of any kind, even tactically it is just stupid. I could justify carbines and shotguns for home defense and anti-wildlife use, but that isn’t a hill I would die on, if they get outlawed…whatever. I don’t think they should, but I won’t really defend them.
Both sides are so justifiable that there really has to be a happy medium that serves both causes even if neither side it super happy bout the outcome. I just wish we could focus our energies on other things at this point.
Yeah while I might say that your friend would be better of if the gang members had no access to guns, its not the reality: they do have guns right now.
I had not really considered concealed carry as more of a temporary solution to deal with how dangerous things currently can be, either situationally or if you become a target for whatever reason.
What would you think of some sort of requirement that someone prove they have exceptional risk to be able to have one for personal defense?
I’m not against the tool outright, power imbalances exist for sure and can be absurdly weighted.
We could probably go on and on with this, I think we both agree we want responsible well-trained use, and there has to be some way to either prove it or qualify for it.
Considering even police officers mess up gun safety from time to time, we should not just assume every average person is going to be able to figure it all out on their own.