- cross-posted to:
- linux@programming.dev
- cross-posted to:
- linux@programming.dev
geteilt von: https://discuss.tchncs.de/post/19377025
[…] I announce that our move off of wlroots is now complete and MR 6608 is now merged.
geteilt von: https://discuss.tchncs.de/post/19377025
[…] I announce that our move off of wlroots is now complete and MR 6608 is now merged.
Fuck Hyprland, its developers, and its asshole community. Context: https://drewdevault.com/2024/04/09/2024-04-09-FDO-conduct-enforcement.html
The bread and butter for anyone wanting a TLDR:
Oh wow. That community is just hateful
And now in the r/linux thread about these news people are defending Vaxry, misrepresenting what the ban was about, and hating FDO.
Indicatively, this blatantly wrong comment chain is upvoted:
But this is downvoted and has replies telling them they’re wrong:
I whole-heartedly agree with this one and I am genuinely not surprised about the behaviour of Vaxry.
To give some context around this, ThatOneCalculator (aka Kainoa, the person behind Firefish) and I maintained the AUR package for hyprland-git back in 2022. When I initially made the AUR package file, it wasn’t great (and there were a lot of points to improve these packages) but it worked mostly. Of course there were edge cases where building broke, especially this was my first bigger AUR package to maintain. With it being a -git package in the AUR, breakage is to be expected.
Fast forward about a month, a month and a half. Hyprland rolled out some big changes which caused some build errors. But because my personal life got in the way, Kainoa got sick (IIRC) and I had troubles getting the build scripts working again, so it took a few days to get this resolved.
Vaxry came complaining to comment section of the AUR package “when are you gonna get of your lazy ass and fix this shit” (or something similar to that meaning, I can’t find the original comment anymore). After that, I promptly disowned the package and let Vaxry handle it himself.
Because fuck that shit, as package maintainer, I refused to be treated like this. If you think it takes too long, sure, fine, ask if I need help, offer support, anything. But just don’t be an asshole towards people, that offer your software to a wider audience.
Removed by mod
Yeah I think so… I couldn’t find myself as well because I wanted to get the wording correct for my post.
Removed by mod
To be completely fair, without the “receipts” (ie, screenshots or something else point towards proof) my comments shouldn’t be considered anything more than hearsay.
Personally, this experience is something that’s sticking out like a sore thumb. Most people I interact with online, even people I haven’t interacted with before, I start out with the assumption that they come from a place with good intentions. And then there is a person, that immediately goes against that, especially on a platform where I didn’t expect it.
Edit: grammar
Vaxry (head honcho of hyprland) responds here to Drew’s referenced shoutout. Sharing for completeness sake. https://blog.vaxry.net/articles/2023-hyprlandsCommunity
And his response to the FreeDesktop stuff. https://blog.vaxry.net/articles/2024-fdo-and-redhat
It seems like the guy is being genuine here. Or was that pure PR?
He is some sort of a sociopath. I remember having the same feelings reading his Blogposts. But after rethinking and checking the facts it came to me how awful his own reaction was.
If you use an infrastructure as the project did, the host is allowed to define rules. In his reaction everything was framed like she as a woman would just fire against his project because of she likes to have power. The mailing list told a totally different story. After I realised his framing was again hateful and misleading, I stepped away from the project and till now all news about that.
The development of a dedicated backend is most probably because of technical reasons since wlroots caused some problems, though.
Damn, had no idea about this.
Well I was going to try Hyprland this weekend, but I think instead I will very much not do that.
I hope someone forks it from a good commit just before they replaced wlroots. I don’t know the specifics of compositor code at all, but I bet It’s going to cost them quite a bit of velocity to maintain their replacement.
I’d say, read Hyprland’s responses linked elsewhere in this thread before making any hasty decisions.
It seems (but I’m not sure, to be clear), that it was a situation that got solved, and people are still hung up on it.
It’s like that “but you fuck one sheep” joke.
what joke?
You’ll find many variations of it if you search for that phrase on the internet.
But at this point, eh, it’s not as fitting as I thought it would be.
Then you might as well not use linux cause if you don’t know, you will be in a shock
I’d recommend river to anyone looking for an alternative wayland dynamic tiling wm.
I’m SO excited for river 0.4.0 as it will bring a massive architectural change which will basically allow people to build their own Window Manager on top of River. Currently, River is a Wayland Compositor with an extensible Layout Generator Process support via a custom protocol. This change will essentially make River into a hyper-extensible Window manager building system which will make it immensely powerful.
While I use river as daily driver and am very happy with it, I feel people who like Hyprland will find river to be rather limited and barren in terms of looks and availability of plugins.
I’d be happy to find an alternative to Hyprland, but it was the first tiling manager that really clicked for me and (before the community issues came to light) I spent quite some time getting it set to the way I like it. I’d love for a competent fork or similar but it is well beyond my skill level to do that.
Any recommendations for a Hyprland refugee? Thinking of trying out niri…
After this news I switched to using KDE with Karousel, an animation plugin, and a rounded corners plugin (kwin scripts).
I also use a command runner plasmoid to somewhat replicate waybar from shell scripts.
I’ve been eyeing https://codeberg.org/river/river
river is great. It’s far more stable than any other wayland compositor I’ve used.
That looks awesome! Having used fvwm, I’m a fan of the scrollable desktop
I’ve been using swayfx, a fork of Sway with a little more eye candy.
River: https://codeberg.org/river/river
I can only recommend niri!
None of the suggestions are even close to how good hyprland is. Like not even a little close.
river
Hyprland has special workspaces, plugins which became part of my worksapace. I don’t think river can replace it. i3 has features like these but i couldn’t find anything similar in river.
I like niri, but I’ll be damned if I can get any kind of stability out of it. I’ll have myself a flawless time at home testing, but as soon as my laptop enters University Grounds it stops launching apps, or crashes, or whatever else.
Right now I’m using Gnome/PaperWM since Infinite horizontal has changed my workflow so dramatically, and Gnome is more stable for me.
I’m a fan of qtile. Used it when it was x11 only and use it on Wayland now.
This was a Discord dumpster fire that was thankfully put out months ago.
Hyprland is incredible and hopefully there won’t be any more trouble like this
Because Vaxry didn’t like the public backlash, not because he had any moral problems with the conduct. In fact, he doesn’t mind genocide:
I think he was trying to have a philosophical point here but took the headass approach to it.
20 years ish old, living in Poland, and perma online does things to a man. Weird though to have a take like that when Polish people in particular were significant victims in Auschwitz
To his point: if not “discuss”, what is the correct approach against fascism? war and murder? dismiss it, try to “cancel it” without giving any arguments so it can continue to fester on its own and keep growing in opposition?
To me, fascism is a stupid position that doesn’t make much sense, to the point that it falls on itself the moment you “discuss” it.
I would have expected that it would be the fascists the ones unable/unwilling to discuss their position, since it’s the least rational one. So it’s certainly very jarring whenever I hear people jumping to defend against fascism while at the same time stopping in their tracks when it comes to discussing it. Even if those unable to reason might not be convinced by our arguments, anyone with reason would. Rejecting discussion does a disservice, because it does put off those willing to listen and strengthens those who didn’t really want an argument anyway.
Like flat-earthers, they should be challenged with reason, with discussion. Not dismissed as if it were true that there’s a huge conspiracy against them. Whether they listen or not to that reason, dehumanizing them and rejecting civil and rational discourse would play in favor of their movement.
Stating “genocide is bad” should NOT be a statement of faith. Faith is the shakiest of the grounds, if we are unable to articulate the specific reasons that make genocide be bad, then we are condemned to see it repeat itself. So, I’d argue it’s for the sake of the victims in Auschwitz that antifascism should not be turned into a religion, but into a solid and rational position that’s not distorted nor used willy-nilly.
Aw, man. I think Vaxry’s got entrapped here.
He is saying that if nothing can sway you from an opinion, then it is a belief, including being 100% opposed to genocide.
(Please note: I don’t side with genocide!!! But I understand his point. Read on.)
I think he’s the positions armchair arguing type, not necessarily the evil type.
I can totally see him say “If a group of people’s solely reason to exist is to exterminate the rest of the human race, if that’s all they think about, if all they do is to accomplish that - induce terror, kill babies, spew propaganda, castrate humans of all races; then it’s safe to say that that group of people should not exist and it should be exterminated.”
That’s an extremely wild scenario, of course! But I think that’s what this guy is saying. We may find genocide in general heinous, but he won’t say that all genocides are bad because of thought examples like the above one.
Then the other party takes that personally, and extrapolates that Vaxry is in favor of exterminating all trans people - something he didn’t say or mean.
My two cents.
That discussion didn’t come out of the blue, though. It was in the aftermath of behavior on his Discord where his position was “I didn’t say the things and I can’t moderate”. Also, as a person of Polish descent who follows Polish politics probably a bit closer than the average person, I see a pattern of PiS party ideology / common behavior by PiS supporters of being at the far right and the claiming ignorance when their behavior leads to bad press.
Right, but the original mail from FDO basically said “we know about these examples of bad behavior, we want to notify you that they are definitely unacceptable and we expect to never see something like it again”. And Vaxry had a meltdown over that. Among other things, he doesn’t get why he should be held accountable for behaviors outside FDO. He has also rejected and commented negatively on the idea of any code of conduct at all for his project. Vaxry is making it as clear as possible that he will make zero commitment to oppose toxicity in his community and people took his word for it. The idea that he was punished solely for a couple of comments that happened years ago and are definitely “fixed” is Vaxry’s own misleading interpretation.
I don’t know, man. I read Vaxry’s response and I think that he has a point. There was an incident, and it was dealt with.
Then someone from redhat (because they e-mailed him with from RedHat address) told him “hey we saw improvements on you moderating your community. Great! But if you break our CoC again, we’ll ban you!” To which he replied “Uh, we don’t have a CoC, we don’t belong to your organization, what’s is this about?” And the person replied “This is not a RedHat position. And again, we’ll ban you!”
He explained this in a blogpost and posted the full e-mail conversation.
He also said that the misrepresentation got to such point that a another transgender coder made a contribution to Vaxry’s project, expecting that it would be rejected, and got surprised that her PR got merged.
I’ve also read Vaxry’s response and it’s complete nonsense. It’s even apparent in your condensed version.
Exactly. This is more than “an incident” as you put it. It’s a long-lasting pattern of Vaxry refusing to commit to any standards of behavior. He explicitly calls “upholding any value” nothing but an inconvenience. His only reaction to his community ridiculing the concept of a CoC is to say “nice one”.
What’s funny is that the person who opened the issue said “Instead of attacking the post, could you provide some evidence against it? (e.g. say “Trans rights are human rights”)” and it was completely ignored. See, the CoC is not about the text itself. It’s about taking an open stance against bigotry. Vaxry can cry all day about how this one incident is misrepresented and how moderation has become more strict now, but nowhere in this discussion or the FDO emails or his own blog about the issue have I seen him take an actual moral stance on the issue.
What does this have to do with anything? FDO, a space that aims to be LGBTQ+ friendly, banned a bigoted person from participating, as they should. It’s such a stupid childish argument to say “but I didn’t out myself as a bigot in a commit message I submitted to you, checkmate!”. No-one cares. You can’t leave your “fuck trans people, lol” sign at the door and walk in, mate. You’re still a toxic asshole and you’re still a threat to the LBGTQ+ people we want to participate in our community.
This is just so funny to hear from Vaxry himself. After people have repeatedly tried to explain to him that not enforcing any code of conduct on a toxic community is going to make it an unsafe space for LGBTQ+ people, Vaxry is shocked to find that LGBTQ+ people are afraid of being discriminated against!
Oh, but no, you see it’s because of the “misrepresentation”! Vaxry’s had made it so clear through his words and actions that trans rights are human rights and that bigotry is unacceptable, so it can’t possibly be on him. Even as he’s posting pictures this conversation where he’s accused of being a transphobe, and a trans person is expecting to get rejected, does he point out how he’s not a transphobe and how he respects all human rights? Nope, he only says that he only cares about the code.
But that’s just me picking apart his comments in a few specific discussions. What if he has in fact taken a moral stance, but just not in these particular discussions where’s he’s felt attacked and pressured into making a statement?
He did post this in one of his blog posts:
Hey, that’s not bad. There’s mention of equality here and he seems against discrimination! Now let’s read the rest of this Inclusive community activists are harming FOSS blog post and see what it’s really about! Oh no, the above statement was only to set the stage for accusing SJWs of not understanding that not everyone agrees with them and how they shouldn’t “cancel” us for “saying bad words”. So he does think to talk about equality and discrimination, just not in any of the above discussions. But he’ll do it here to defense people acting like assholes on the internet!
And then he says this:
So there you have it. Vaxry will literally accept Hilter into his community, just casually interacting with Jewish people (presumably he doesn’t ban them from participating). It’s all fine, just as long as the gassing happens outside his own platform. Gosh, I wonder why people are feeling unwelcome in his community. Surely it is the misrepresentation of his views.
Here’s an archive link for the above article just in case: https://web.archive.org/web/20240511145845/https://blog.vaxry.net/articles/2023-inclusiveActivists
I think you’re attributing malice to something else. Bear with me while I point out these two things:
First, The tomatoes quote is a consequence of something he mentioned later:
And second, he goes on to write this:
Here’s what I think: The dude is dogmatically dense. Not a literal nazi or transphobe. His response about moderation is part of that. “Ugh, I just want to code, not to babysit. If no one is spewing hate in my turf, they are welcome.” And even though I don’t agree with his stance, I still think he has a point: extremes are bad. And if the far-right is bad (“you’re either with us or against us; death to you!”), the far-left is bad too (“you’re either with us or against us; cancelled!”)
I’ve been there. Even after explaining that I was a transgender rights ally and supporter, and asked a question about sports - a question, as in I was trying to get myself informed, this one mod lashed out at me as if I was the devil, simply because my views didn’t perfectly align with hers before getting answers. It really caught me off guard. And she wouldn’t budge. It’s either her view or “pure unadulterated transphobia,” which I found ridiculous. That’s extreme.
But I’m capable of trying to reach to a middleground, whereas Vaxry stays firm - and that’s fine. Don’t like it? Don’t participate in his community! But don’t demonize him for some imaginary intentions you’re placing on him.
There are only so many ways “I don’t care if Hitler is active in my community as long as he doesn’t talk about the gassing in my discord” can be interpreted and “I just want to code” is not one of them. For starters, the practical issues of moderation and whether he wants to do it are never relevant to his argument throughout the blog post. He’s saying that “we should not care about people’s political views on a community unrelated to politics, as long as they do not use it to spread their agenda”. The words “we”, “should”, and “care” are pretty clear. This is a moral statement.
There are many more quotes that make it clear he is not talking about moderating his own community. His point about Hitler is clearly used to demonstrate his thoughts on how communities in general should be run, and why FOSS communities are getting it wrong.
Bonus points for explicitly listing LGBT issues as a topic one might disagree with.
It’s all unambiguous. Vaxry is at no point talking about the practicalities of keeping Hitler out of his community. He is explaining why he thinks Hitler should be welcome into his community and the FOSS community in general, just as long as he doesn’t use these communities to further his goal of gassing people. If there was ever any confusion over whether Vaxry doesn’t care about the toxicity or just can’t deal with it, this blog post definitely clears it up. He doesn’t care. He’s welcoming evil and harmful people in his community and in all communities and he takes a stance against the people who have an issue with this.
Your interpretation doesn’t work unless you ignore all the words he uses, the logic of his arguments, and even the fucking title. Not to mention all the other times he’s talked about these issues. In so many blog posts about how his community is unfairly represented and how his ban was unwarranted, Vaxry has not once just simply stated in any terms that he is not okay with evil and harmful people in his community, or that he even acknowledges trans rights. The only thing I’ve seen him say on the incident of harassing a trans person by editing their profile to change their pronouns is that it was “unprofessional”. No mention of ethics or possible harm done.
Ah yes, seeking people to harm because of their race and innate characteristics and banning people from your platform because of their morals and behavior. Equally bad things. I see the rights and wrongs of both sides now.
That’s exactly what he is saying. I don’t agree with it, but if you read his stuff, you can tell that it’s pedantry rather than hate what makes him say that.
That’s your opinion, and we’re going in circles.
But they are, though.
Moral or pragmatic, sure, whatever you say. But the base is not standing on hate. Just… Apathetic practicality? Laziness?
We don’t disagree here. But so what? You could also say “fascist shouldn’t exist,” and someone somewhere will say that you’re condoning genocide.
You’re not saying anything we haven’t discussed already - we’ve the term transphobia several times already.
Exactly. We’re going in circles here. You’re attributing malice to this sentence. You’re saying that he is secretly saying “hurr hurr I am a nazi and this is how I get away with it.” He isn’t. I don’t like it, I fucking hate nazis. But I don’t think he is one. He’s probably autistic before being a nazi.
Correct. More of the same.
It does work.
Because it was unprofessional from his point of view. He’s not secretly and deliberately condoning transphobia.
Again, we don’t disagree. I should have that phrase stored somewhere, ready to be pasted when discussing with you.
Look, show me a picture of him doing the nazi salute or protesting a pride parade, and we’ll talk.
Otherwise, I stand by what I said. The dude is a dense moron. Not evil.
What are you on about? Nothing you say has any relevance to what I said or to what Vaxry said. Go back and read my comments. I said this:
And then I quoted Vaxry’s own posts showing exactly that. I didn’t claim that he is a nazi and I don’t have to prove to you that he is. No one cares. Welcoming nazis into his community and advocating that we should all be doing the same is the problem. Whether he is a nazi or a “dense idiot” is a question only you posed. By his stance alone he is creating exactly the type of unsafe and toxic community other people want nothing to do with. That’s all that needs to be said. Your statement that this was only a “Discord dumpster fire that was thankfully put out months ago” is plain false. My comment was a statement of fact. Nazi salutes and proof of malice are irrelevant to any of this.
Seriously, what even is this level of strawmaning?
You need to work on yourself if this is how you react to people online simply saying a fact that annoys you.
Also, don’t bother writing another long meaningless comment. I don’t care to convince you. It’s clearly impossible, anyway. My previous comments were to bring Vaxry’s actual quotes and political stance into this thread because I knew people would either lie or genuinely not know about it. And now this one was to point out the dishonest debate tactics that most pro-Vaxry comments use, where they try to “win” the argument by moving the goal posts, misrepresenting the facts (deliberately or not), and twisting other people’s arguments. Now that all of this is in the open (in this thread at least), there’s nothing to talk about.
I also frequent the discord server often for help with configuring, I have not seen/experienced any of this hatred talked about so much. The worst I’ve seen is bluntness in delivering a solution or just being ignored because I someone didn’t RTFM.
Hyprland is a wonderful piece of technology and I hope it continues to persist.
All of these people are just reaching lol. I also don’t understand how any of this would do benefit. Most of the people here cheering have not contributed 1℅ of what varxy did.
That drewvault guy lectures all day instead of maintaining his own projects. Why are we acting as if we are in abundance of open source devs/maintainers.
Damn. I only discovered this project a few weeks ago and just started building a config.
Time to
yay -Rcs hyprland.Damn why does all the software I want to use end up being developed by bigoted assholes. First nix now this.
My opinion: let’s separate the software and the people making it. If it’s great tool and FOSS why not use it? You use software, not people.
EDIT: I know that FOSS heavily relies on community but also that’s the point. I don’t see how toxic comminity can progress further while more open minded and kind fork will be a better choice of the same software base.
What if you need to file a bug? What if you have a question on the config that’s not easily answered by the docs? If you never, ever find bugs and never, ever have questions, then sure, separate the two. There are genuinely people like that, but they’re not common. If you’re one of them, then I’m genuinely glad for you.
My opinion is this: You use software. You don’t use people, but you sure as hell rely on them.
Yeah that’s a better opinion than mine.
Which is why you should only care about the personal opinion of those people when it actually relates to that reliability.
I don’t care whether Linus Torvalds likes disrespecting whichever company or people he might want to give the middle finger to, or throw rants in the mailing list or mastodon to attack any particular individual, so long as he continues doing a good job maintaining the kernel and accepting contributions from those same people when they provide quality code, regardless of whatever feelings he might have about whatever opinions they might hold.
You rely on the performance of the software, the clarity of the docs, the efficiency of their bug tracking… but the opinions of the people running those things don’t matter so long as they keep being reliable.
Just do them how you would do with any other project. You really acting like it’s some alt right group. It’s just a edgy chronically online 20 yr old dude lol. The community is pretty normal. Only weird things you would see is edgy messages in announcements channel.
Since this change is entirely a result of the bad behavior of the maintainer and would not have happened otherwise, this a perfect example of why we fundamentally cannot separate the work from the people who make it.
Even if you do not agree with the social backlash this person is getting, that backlash has real effects on the work.
I, for one, no longer trust that hyprland will remain a well-maintained piece of software given that the maintainer would rather increase their maintenance burden and diverge from using common tools instead of cooperating with the community.
Yeah the “organisation” stuff behind… To be honest anything can show negative or positive effects on the end product. I see it in my job, college and even the Unity or CrowdStrike can make such examples.
Please note that many users of FOSS are also developers or contributors. Who wants to report a bug or send a patch if the community is worse?
“Let’s remove the social element of our social movement”
Great so what’s left at that point, the free value FOSS provides to corporations?
Having a tool that can be used greatly without restrictions without any additional bullshit. For me that’s FOSS but I know that when comes to maturity and development community is the main component of great end product.
I didn’t write about its user base, I wrote about its community – the cesspool that engages among each other. That said, the moment someone opens a bug report, there’s a real chance that person gets harassed.
That’s absolutely sucks I agree…
The thing about Foss is that it’s typically community oriented. You are not only able to contribute and participate, but you’re invited to do so.
And if you’re an asshole and your community is toxic then who cares if your code is good? There are other projects I’d rather participate in. Cuz you’re not that good.
I have contributed to other projects without really needing to get involved in their community in any personal/parasocial level, though.
I just make a pull request and when the code was good it was accepted, when not it got rejected. Sometimes I’ve had to make changes before it getting merged, but I had no need to engage in discussions on discord or anything like that. I’ve been in some mailing lists to keep track on some projects, but never really engaged deeply, specially if it goes off-topic.
If I find that a good code contribution is rejected for whatever toxic reason, then the consequence of that is the code would stop being as good as it could have (because of the contributions being rejected/slowed down), so it’s then that forking might be in order. Of course the code matters.
That’s correct, but sometimes in that sense you don’t engage with anyone and just read the docs. Also there are some cases when main contributors were toxic or unhelpful in a long run that community decided to create independent fork that’s more FOSS driven, not by elitism driven.
Would be great, but some people are really strange. Especially bad if you have to let go of the work of some people, because you cant do it on your own.
Yeah true
People should learn to separate technically impressive projects from the people running them. I’m not going to contribute or financially support the project, but I’m not going to stop using Hyprland because of its creator’s views and conduct. With that said, this stuff certainly doesn’t spark enthusiasm…
I wrote community, not user base.
I wasn’t criticising your comment, sorry if that’s what it looked like. It was just what came to mind reading a bunch of comments saying they’re abandoning Hyprland because of the controversies. Probably should have just replied to the post itself instead of your comment…
No, I was merely clarifying.
Sure, no worries :3
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Being a good dev doesn’t justify being a bad person either.
This wm is dead to me.
Imagine letting yourself get emotional about ghe “asshole community” of a “tiling compositor”.
Anything can get to you if that can.