if it takes you 20 shots to neutralize a threat at point-blank, I don’t think you should be allowed to own a gun
Fun thing in Australia, you don’t need to be able to hit a target to get a gun licence. Licences tests are more focused on firearm safety.
I mean, that’s how it should be. Just like getting drivers license requires you to demonstrate you can drive safely, so should a firearms license.
Drive safely and not hit things even.
So, like the gun test.
In my country we’re required to set an acceptable lap time around the local racetrack.
Local race track, formerly air field, future housing project.
Netherlands?
Finland?
Laughs in Texan
Here you just buy the pistol, and a holster you like, and that’s it.
I’d say being able to hit an intended target and not just praying and spraying is part of firearm safety. Errant bullets can cause a lot of damage. It’s been over a decade since I’ve owned a firearm but it wasn’t for nothing that one of the four fundamental rules of firearm safety I was taught is “be sure of your target and what’s behind it”.
in the firearm safety course, you learn not to shoot if there’s anything behind the target you do not intend to destroy. Even if you hit the target, the bullet can pass through it. So it really makes no difference for gun safety whether you hit.
I’ve been taught “treat, never, keep, keep” as the four rules. How do yours go?
5.7 is known to be pretty terrible for its “stopping power” for lack of a better term. Its a handgun round design to penetrate body armor. In doing so it had to make sacrifices in bullet dimensions and weight. It performs similarly to a .22 magnum round which is a frankly wimpy cartridge meant for small game like rabbits.
So 20 rounds to stop a human isn’t stretching the truth too much.
Sounds like the wrong gun to carry for personal defense
designed to penetrate body armor
wrong gun to carry for personal defense
Depends on what you’re defending against! Only people wearing kevlar body armor are cops, militants, and ice hockey goalies. I don’t know much about guns, but from the description you’re replying to this sounds like the right one for personal defense against wannabe fascist militias and overfunded/overarmed police forces. I agree it’s the wrong gun to defend against the defenseless, but shooting the defenseless is not what I think of when someone says “personal defense”.
The post literally talks about a mugger, if you really have armed militas just attacking people you might want to get out of the congo
Its a good gun to carry if you are worried about a spike of mall shooters in your area. Many of the incel mall shooter types commit their shootings in some sort of basic body armor. The 5.7 round would be better in that one case.
Still, just about everyone would be better off just getting a good reliable 9mm pistol of some sort.
The best self defense firearm is a small, dependable 9mm that you won’t be sad about losing forever, should you ever need to use it.
But 20? Like if you get shot once, hell, more than once, wouldn’t you just more or less drop from the pain?
In high stress situations people frequently don’t even realize they got shot until after the adrenaline wears off. In my EMR course they trained us that we need to physically check for bullet wounds ourselves if a shooting was suspected because you can’t rely on the victim knowing that they’ve been shot.
That’s why mag dumping is more or less standard practice in survival situations. Sure, 1 bullet may kill the person, but it probably won’t do so for several minutes and until then you’ve only pissed them off. So you shoot and keep shooting until they actually drop. Which, when you’re talking about a particularly wimpy round like the one above, can take far more bullets that most people expect.
Kind of like how I unload an entire can of bug spray at the wasp that came into my house.
As a European this is my only frame of reference.Sounds fair, makes sense. I’ll keep this in mind in the (hopefully unlikely) scenario where I need to defend myself with a firearm.
This is one of the most American comments I’ve ever read.
Where one would actually need to use the gun, perhaps adrenaline would come into play?
I’m currently shooting myself periodically with 5.7 in order to boost my immunity to lethal rounds like 10mm.
Make sure you switch to hollow points occasionally. It helps with the lead immunity as well.
I did not know that (I probably should have figured it out though based on the physics and the tiny little bullet) when I professed my love for the PS90…I just thought it was fun at a range… And now I learned I might as well been shooting a money gun.
5.7 is certainly a fun one to shoot and it feels great.
But once you try knocking down steel targets with a 5.7 and you start to realize its limitations
I think is just more of a fear response
Kind of like how people have a hard time taking off airplane seatbelts while panicking
Me, an old west cowboy exiting a salon: “Would be a shame if I had to draw this here hip-iron.”
Varment Buscadero Up to No Good pointing his own pistol right at my chest: “Draw, you yellow-bellied sarsaparilla swillin’ son of a gun. Imma gonna plug you good and proper, 'for ah take that there horse.”
As the fastest gun in the west, I smoothly withdraw my six-shooter and plant all six rounds perfectly through his chest before he can even twitch his trigger finger.
“Gosh darnit. Them ammo rounds worth more than mah old sway-back, Trixie. Gonna have to visit the old general store and spend mah last plugged nickel, fore ah mosey on outta this here pig swallow.”
“Exiting a salon”
You can skimp on ammo, but not on looks.
I had just got my hair did and it bein’ high noon and all figure I’d get me some ta eat.
20 rounds of 5.7x28 are like what, 10 to 30 bucks when bought in bulk? I don’t know how that contrasts with carrying a $700 gun around.
Uh because the gun isn’t consumable and the ammo is???
Look at this guy, carrying around a used gun.
5.7 has gone down in price with more guns coming out it in. Buying 20 rounds of defensive ammo in 5.7 in 2019 would have easily been much more than $30. Still less than $700 but probably more than just handing over all your cash
I want to say 5.7 went up 2019/2020 something crazy, there are old forum threads referencing pricing on Ammoseek from around that time, about $1.8 per round is the most expensive I could find.
But yeah, I didn’t even check the date on the original post.
You get +AC from defensive rounds or something?
No you get to roll a large # die.
Defensive rounds like hollow points typically are more efficacious at stopping a threat instantly but they tend to cost more so people typically use cheap ammunition like FMJ for training or recreational use.
Just checked online: $0.40 to $1.50 per round. $8 to $30 for the 20 rounds.
This all could have been avoided with a Discworld-style Thieves Guild
Now go and pick them up like you did with nerf rounds as a kid
https://youtu.be/VZrFVtmRXrw?si=Rq0PqF_n7LLMyUED
“They put $50,000 worth of bullets in his ass!”
beat me to it
Who touched sasha?
Who touched my gun!
Haha I love the idea of a PS90 …it’s fun when used safely at a range not as a cosplay element for the gravy seals. But the cost of the ammo has kept me from impulse buying one…I don’t any any cool weapons currently but I also don’t need them.
Because my trebuchet is full of threats.
This is the same reason I don’t own a Five-seveN
Chiappa rhinos and 357 magnum aren’t insanely expensive tho. It’s tons of fun to shoot too
What would you recommend for a personal weapon? Assuming the proper training happens too
While much depends on how a weapon fits and feels while using it, an honest appraisal of your abilities and your commitment to practice and where you think you will use that firearm for defense.
While the .357 magnum is still considered the best “one shot man stopper” round even yet today, the bulk and weight of a revolver chambered in .357 coupled with the heavier recoil makes it less appealing to most shooters. Plus it is a lot more expensive to practice with. The current standard handgun thinking is 9mm is the correct choice. It’s popular with militarizes around the world because it’s cheaper to make and it’s easier to train raw recruits in a reasonable amount if time to be at least adequate in it’s use. That also tend to hold true for civilians.
A “nightstand gun” vs “carry guns” is another issue. A home defense gun that doesn’t get carried can be larger and heavier than one you might want to regularly carry. Carrying a pistol can be a pain in the ass after a long day.
Think about where you might need to use that gun. A home defense gun in an urban area or inside an apartment, over penetration is a serious issue. A lot of rounds can easily go through walls and kill someone sleeping on the other side. The .357 is one of them and 9mm is not a lot better either. Oddly enough, the 5.56 rifle round, when tested, tends to penetrate walls less often than many self-defense handgun rounds - YMMV. An AR15 could be the safest choice for many.
My personal choice for a self-defense handgun is a 9mm SIG P365XL, (no safety version). It fits my XXL hand very well, points naturally when acquiring the target, and I like the flat trigger and sights. My wife prefers the S&W 9mm EZ, (manual safety plus grip safety). She likes the fit and the slightly less muzzle flip between shots.
Oddly enough, the 5.56 rifle round, when tested, tends to penetrate walls less often than many self-defense handgun rounds - YMMV.*
*With proper rounds, frangible or hollow point. Steel cores zip through and even straight ball isn’t the best.
Important note.
You are of course correct. I just didn’t want to get too far off on a tangent. So I left that for you to teach. ;)
Thank you very much for that nice well thought out summary…I will say despite the 357s stopping power I’ve see enough crime shows with cops facing a guy with an automatic weapon while they struggle to reload a sex shooter to know I need a semi automatic, because in my head I am a hero…but my logic knows I’m not…yet.
Time for me to get some lessons
they struggle to reload a sex shooter
They make a pill for that!
Goddamn autocorrect I’m leaving it
If you look at the shooting records complied by the FBI, for civilian self-defense where shots are fired, in the majority of encounters 4 or less shots are fired. At that point, everyone is running away like they got somewhere else to be or they are down and bleeding out. Because, as it turns out, no one wants to get shot. So a 6 shot revolver is still actually pretty viable for self-defense. Hell, a brace of flintlock pistols might be enough…
In any case, no matter what gun you choose, you are correct - get training, practice, practice, practice. And always remember that if it ever actually comes down to it -You only have one job. Survive the encounter to get away. That’s it.
I understand this logic and can find no fault in it.
It’s not about the money
Yeah, it’s logistically much easier to buy more ammo than to have to replace IDs, credit cards, family photos, etc.
Y’all carry wallets still? 2 or 3 cards should be enough, that shit fits in your phone case.
Y’all use phone cases? Not dropping your phone should be enough, that shit fits in your hand.
Yeah its meant to challenge someone’s current position by causing people to defend it out loud. I understand its actual nonsense to say noone should need a wallet, just as its nonsense to say that noone needs a phone case, or even that everyone needs a phone case.
Yeah its meant to challenge someone’s current position by causing people to defend it out loud.
I thought it was to protect your phone, but yeah, ok. Must be an Apple thing.
If you use it right, it can protect your mind too!
No, it doesn’t. I would have to get one of those annoying wallet phone cases for that.
I prefer to keep my phone separate from everything else.
The phone cases made for a few cards are the same size as regular ones nearly, and for me I’m far more likely to lose a wallet than a phone.
I also dont leave my phone out in public places to be snatched.
Oh good so if my phone gets lost, I don’t just lose that I also lose my ID and cards too! Great plan.
If you are more likely to lose your phone than your wallet, sure. Thats not my case so it males sense for me. It also prevents me from carrying stuff I dont need. Replacing a picture ID and canceling a few cards is trivial.
Yeah let me just call my bank and- Ah, oh yeah, phone gone. DMV at least is all online now.
Btw, not all of us have only such trivial cards. If they get my wallet they also have access to some shit they shouldn’t through an RFID badge and another nondescript card I have to pay $100 and visit the sherriff’s office to replace, and a sentimental item or two that are irreplaceable, think family photos. I even have a decoy wallet lol, (rather a money clip with the “here, take it” cash and no cards) so they can steal that and if they get my phone too, fine but at least I’m not fucked with one move.
Yeah its really a perspective and lifestyle thing, although I’m at the point where I might actually turn something down if it meant I was required to carry around any more than I do now unless it was worth it, like for a job.
I won’t even do small chain rewards cards or any of that nonsense, and none of their apps work with a degoogled phone anyways, so I just pay extra to not have to deal with it.
I also carry a decoy phone
To throw at the snail as a last ditch defense.
Good idea
Well I figure in the event I’m being robbed, I’d lose both a wallet and a phone. Probably my keys too.
I could be convinced that I’m increasing my risk somehow but I would need someone to walk me through how.
I’ve never met one of these wallet-hating guys that wasn’t super effeminate/gay. It’s weird, but it’s consistent. Also they always wear one weird black ring for some reason. What’s up with y’all?
Your money or your life!
Life please. Make sure and line it up properly though, I don’t want to end up a vegetable.
Save the brass! Time to take up reloading in case you get mugged a lot.
I’d have to guess it’d cost like $40 to do that. Yeah.
While I don’t condone deadly force a mugger asking for your wallet first is probably not going to stop there and so it may be better not to cooperate at all. Magdumping seems a little harsh though.
a mugger asking for your wallet first is probably not going to stop there
Source? That seems extremely counterintuitive
Common sense. Someone who threatens you and tries to mug you probably isn’t keen on not breaking the law. People who are not keen on not breaking the law might just be liars. I’m not saying all muggers will cut your throat after taking your wallet, phone and jewlery, but a good amount of them might just.
Common sense is that people who want to steal the cash in your pocket don’t want a murder charge, and the percentage who would get violent when it isn’t even profitable is vanishingly small
The idea that robbery and “slitting your throat” are the same kind of crime is absolutely insane, what’s next, if you jaywalk you’re probably a murderer too?
I mean, that’s logical, practical, reasonable thinking there…but I don’t want to have to hope and trust that someone who was able to think themselves into mugging me can be counted upon to think themselves out of doing anything else.
This isn’t common sense.
Maybe if jail sentences were based on a binary “did they crime?” legal test you’d have the beginnings of a point with respect to deterrence, but we’d also have to throw aside any innate morality the person has.
If you’re also of the opinion there’s no such thing as a crime of need.
In fact it’s just a really dumb point.
Really? I don’t live in a country with guns. If I did, I would expect to get shot at if I attempted robbery. How could you possibly be surprised if you got shot?
Dumping a mag on a criminal alright. Reloading and dumping another one might be a little too much.
Mugger still deserved it.
You have to take in account though everyone you saved from being mugged
Yes but this round is meant for targets with body armor, and will kill people behind unarmored soft targets
If there are any which it sounds like there weren’t
The fucks wrong with a 9mm
Just shoot them in their knee, murder isn’t always justified plus you use only one bullet.
