As title, if you have post or link any useful resource you have
So, veteran here. I’ve tried to talk people out of joining the military or at least trying to avoid jobs with high probability of seeing combat. Usually the result is they just start prying about what combat is like and make statements about how much they want to experience it.
Another tack I haven’t tried but it might be more effective, is to describe how miserable it is to have the stench of a burn pit wafting over you, always wondering if the distant gunfire will move in your direction, being stuck manning a 24/7 watch where if even one person who can do that job dies or is otherwise incapacitated you will be stuck doing 12hr shifts instead of 8. Then you get back home and have to fight tooth and nail for benefits from the country that fucked your life up in the first place.
War is hell, coming home is hell, forcing that on someone can only be justified if they are literally at home fighting off an invading force.
forcing that on someone can only be justified if they are literally at home fighting off an invading force.
Empire propaganda must be real good if this commenter has to say this out loud
It’s not the propaganda that’s good, SunZu.
It’s the poverty. Tens of millions of young people in this country have no other way out of debt or to move upward economically.
It IS the propaganda that makes people decide that the military is a way out of poverty and not just another trap OF poverty. If there weren’t recruiters in every poor neighbourhood’s school, people might decide that joining a mission or Greenpeace or digging wells in Africa for a charity is their “only way” out of poverty.
I have to disagree a little bit, as, at least in the US, there are some really great perks associated with miltary service. GI bill and VA home loans are some of the bigger perks, but theres plenty of smaller perks as well (if you know where to look).
Dont get me wrong, these benefits shouldn’t have to be “earned”, but one doesnt necessarily have to put themselves in harms way (or sacrifice their morals) to get those benefits. For example, I enlisted in the Coast Guard Reserve at 18 and picked IT as my “rate”. I often joke that i picked the “lowest form” of miltary service, but Bush’s illegal war in Afghanistan was in full swing at the time and I wanted nothing to do with it, so I justified my choice with, “I’d rather help save people, then help kill people.”
As i joined the reserves, i was able to skip the otherwise mandatory time in service requirements for IT school, and went right after bootcamp. After training, i got stationed with my permanent reserve unit in my home town. Less then a month later i secured an entry level IT job, and have been in the industry ever since. A few years after that, I bought my first house with a VA loan.
While i was in, my service obligation was ludicrously easy. One weekend a month I’d shave and cut my hair, throw on a uniform, and do the same job I’d been doing in my civilian life for the weekend (when there was work to do anyway, we fucked off A LOT). Further, working in both private sector and government IT gave me some really useful perspective that helped me accelerate both my civilian and government careers.
Last thing ill mention is that, presumably due to my ADD, I tend to excel in a job in the first couple years, but eventually get bored and start slackin. CG deployments (at least for IT folks), were very rarely mandatory, but there was usually enough going on that if you wanted to deploy, you just had to say so. Because of this, if i started to feel bored at my civilian role, I’d just throw my name in the hat for a set of orders (ranging from 2-12 months in duration), travel the country on the governmwnt dime, work on some cool shit, maybe learn something, then go back to my civilian job feeling rejuvinated and wanting to apply what i learned. In case you dont know, employers are federally required to keep your position available for when you return (for up to 5 years). Also, depending on the orders, you’d often make more money then active duty folks doing the same job because you’d receive BAH to pay your rent/mortgage at home, while also receiving per diem based on the location of your orders.
Anyway, not trying to sound like a recruiter, but you dont have to sell your soul to get those bennies.
Thank you for adding information to my reply.
Sunny top secret art of war zeroth rule: Don’t get in a war idiot.
forcing that on someone can only be justified if they are literally at home fighting off an invading force.
I believe abolish someone rights is never a good thing. If you are fighting against someone that wants to take these away you have even more reason to respect these rights and stand for them.
I see you’d rather die kneeling than standing.
It’s amazing the shit rich old people can convince poor young people to die saying
edit: meant to say ‘rich young people on computers thousands of miles away cheering on other people’s deaths’
I invite all of you chickenhawk nazi lovers to go die charging a trench in the place of someone who doesn’t support your cause and doesn’t want to die.
What do you mean by nazi? And wtf is a chickenhawk?
I proudly went through conscription in Finland, because we know what Russia was capable of.
So who are these Nazis you speak of?
You’re from Finland and you have to ask where the nazis are?
I don’t, but apparently you do.
So who exactly are you calling nazis?
Literal nazis who wear nazi symbols on their persons and anyone who positively associates with them or supports them
I don’t, but apparently you do.
Your trash talk is incoherent. You don’t have to ask but I do? My dimwitted child, you are the one asking.
The issue, from what I can tell, is that the question you’ve asked here doesn’t match the argument you just had in comments of a post about about the Ukraine war. The argument you were trying to make is not “war bad”, but specifically that Ukraine’s counteroffensive is bad. You were additionally arguing that it is morally reprehensible for other countries to provide economic support to Ukraine rather than leaving them to “defend themselves”.
There’s a few important details that such an argument (intentionally) ignores.
- This invasion was not a choice between war or no war. It was simply a decision between locations that battles take place. It is entirely legitimate for Ukraine to pursue a counteroffensive strategy into russian territory if it believes it to be a more effective military strategy than defensive attritional warfare within their own borders.
- The fact that combat is taking place in Russian territory doesn’t change the fact that the war itself is a defensive war against an aggressor with overtly territorial/imperialist goals.
- As far as I am aware, the units involved in the counteroffensive are exclusively non-drafted volunteer units.
- Cessation of funding to Ukraine would lead to their imminent loss. The fact that they have been able to innovate cheaper strategies like domestic drone usage doesn’t change the fact that war is extremely expensive and technology dependent, and their economy is dwarfed by that of Russia’s.
The combination of your proposals that Ukraine should not proactively fight back, and that they should lose access to the resources that would allow them to continue to defend their territory end us meaning that Ukraine would not be able to effectively defend itself.
From reading your comments alongside this post, it seems that the title should actually be “how do you make someone understand that rolling over and dying is good”, to which the answer is “oh fuck off mate”
The question asked in the thread title is really simple and you should try to stay on topic.
The argument you were trying to make is not “war bad”, but specifically that Ukraine’s counteroffensive is bad.
You were additionally arguing that it is morally reprehensible for other countries to provide economic support to Ukraine
You are twisting what i’ve said. I encourage you to read other people post better because i never made such claim.
From reading your comments alongside this post, it seems that the title should actually be “how do you make someone understand that rolling over and dying is good”, to which the answer is “oh fuck off mate”
If you believe that not being drafted by force and ordered to invade another country is the equivalent of rolling over and dying you are probably victim of the propaganda. As other have suggested here i advise you to watch drones videos from this war where they roll over and die
Let’s go look at your comment history and check, shall we?
Defending yourself and launching invasions or orchestrating soldiers are two different things
It’s not defending yourself if you have an army! What a great take 👍
it sounds like the government is giving out plans and commanding the army. The government of ukraine and people from ukraine are two different things. When people ask what’s the alternative to send billions to the ukrainian government what they need to understand is that people can defend themself even without an authority on top of them playing war games with soldiers and possibly forcing conscript to go on missions
Oh, why did Ukraine never consider magically winning the war by sheer willpower instead of this “having an army” nonsense, smart!
I’m not twisting anything. Context matters, and the context of your post was you throwing a tantrum after around 10 different Lemmy users calling out your bad takes.
If you believe not being drafted blah blah blah
That’s not what I said at all, mere moments after you accused me of “twisting” what you said. What I said, louder for the people in the back is BEING UNABLE TO FIGHT BACK IN THE ENEMY’S TERRITORY, BEING DISALLOWED TO RECEIVE FOREIGN AID AND BEING DISALLOWED TO FORM AN ACTUAL ARMY is the equivalent of rolling over and dying.
The “invasion” of Russia isn’t an invasion though. They have no desire (and no capability) to actually take land.
It’s a war Russia started by invading Ukraine. Of fucking course it’s reasonable to expect Ukraine to counterattack.
You can’t simply hit someone unprovoked and then get mad when they hit back.
Or course drafting is controversial but it’s much less so when the purpose is to protect your country and home compared to what Russia is doing with their drafts where the only purpose is to kill and invade Ukraine.
If Russia surrendered with reasonable terms, Ukraine would obviously exit Russia. They have no desire to keep it.
The “invasion” of Russia isn’t an invasion though. They have no desire (and no capability) to actually take land.
Russia propaganda be saying the same thing, for them it’s a “special operation” and not an invasion. The conversation you are replying to makes reference to another thread in which “orders to invade russia” were mentioned.
Or course drafting is controversial but it’s much less so when the purpose is to protect your country and home compared to what Russia is doing with their drafts where the only purpose is to kill and invade Ukraine.
So let me ask you something: if you were born in russia and kazakistan declares war to russia would you be fine with you and your friends be drafted by force and sent to the front fighting under the command of putin and its mobsters? Perhaps not everyone is willing to die burned alive in a trench, be it for the russian or ukrainian government.
If Russia surrendered with reasonable terms, Ukraine would obviously exit Russia. They have no desire to keep it.
Ukrainian people perhaps no. Worldwide governments seem to have an interest in this war because they are doing everything to fuel it.
Worldwide governments seem to have an interest in this war because they are doing everything to fuel it.
Bingo. This nullifies your credibility. Either you’re a troll or an idiot.
Bingo. This nullifies your credibility. Either you’re a troll or an idiot.
That’s simply what is happening look around you. Rulers and politicians profits in war, the military industry is booming, the cash is flowing. You think the really same people aiding israel in its genocide gives a fuck about peasants dying in a war?
Companies mentioned in an article you linked aren’t getting the cash flow enough to warrant any improvement in related economies. I see Russian politicians profiting off various things during war but they were doing the same before.
So, short effects of the war on economies are not worth the long term effects of deaths of many consumers anywhere. Using the “war helps economy” argument while forgetting how the deaths and active aggression affect the world and lives, is a manipulation, which is also heavily used by those aggressors (Russia).
Telling Israel is doing a genocide without mentioning what hamas were doing to Israel is also a manipulation.
I would never be fine with fighting for a tyrannical country like Russia. I would absolutely fight Russia if they invaded my home and we somehow managed to counterattack on Russian territory.
Ukraine is a way better country than Russia, of course the majority of its people want to stay Ukrainian. And no I’m not saying Ukraine is perfect, it’s just better than Russia.
The government of ukraine and its politicians don’t seem too different from these or russia, germany, france, italy or usa. In all these countries climate activists gets beaten and civil protests get repressed. All these countries support israel in its genocide and sell weapons to saudi arabia. In a way or another they are all tyrannical and not worth die burned alive in a trench for.
Really? You really think that Russian politicians (aka Putin since Russia isn’t a democracy) are comparable to western nations?
Russia is one of the worst places to live in when it comes to rights such as freedom of speech and freedom of press. Western nations aren’t perfect but they aren’t Russia bad. Look at pretty much any metric except land area, and you will see that Russia fucking sucks to live in.
Really? You really think that Russian politicians (aka Putin since Russia isn’t a democracy) are comparable to western nations?
Yes don’t you?
former pm of italy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvio_Berlusconi
former pm of usa: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump
Russia is one of the worst places to live in when it comes to rights such as freedom of speech and freedom of press.
I would say saudi arabia it’s worst
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_United_States–Saudi_Arabia_arms_deal
Whether it’s a good thing or not depends entirely on your philosophical views. There is no objectively correct answer, and which arguments may convince someone very much depends on the values and perspectives of the person you are trying to convince.
How do you make someone realize that their philosophical views are bad then?
That’s not how it works. It isn’t your way or the highway
How could one convince you that your philosophical views are bad?
Sorry, I’m completely immovable on the stance that war is bad. Never once has mass human slaughter made the world a better place.
I understand that, like everything, there are those who disagree. Moral relativism aside, those people are wrong, in the sense that I have zero tolerance for supporting campaigns of mass death.
So if you have an immoveable stance against war, isn’t it just as likely someone out there believes they have a similarly immovable stance in favor of the draft?
Yeah, and that person, unlike me, is evil, because they are able to see human lives as pawns in a political game.
Uh, just to be clear, I’m not actually trying to sway you. Just pointing out to OP, and to you I guess since you’re engaging, that when someone holds an “immoveable stance” as they themselves say, and aren’t open to changing their views, it is highly unlikely one can convince them to change. Like, someone could up to you and say you’re wrong and evil for your views but that probably isn’t going to convince you, right?
Is every alternative preferable to war? For example, should Ukraine have agreed to become part of Russia to avoid war?
Quite a few nations capitulated against the Nazis within days or even without a fight to avoid war. It saved a lot of lives. Does that make it the right choice? Who is to say…
What’s for sure is that Boris shouldn’t have vetoed the peace agreement in 2022.
I didn’t think it saved lives, since it empowered the Nazis to kill more people. So I say no it wasn’t the right choice.
Look it’s hard to say if it saved lives in the overall ww2 tally, but surrender to save lives was the rationale of the Generals eg in The Netherlands. They looked at what the Luftwaffe had done to Rotterdam, looked at what weapons they had themselves, considered the prospect of what was going to happen to Utrecht next, and decided that further resistance was futile. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_in_World_War_II#German_occupation
Perhaps by bringing up resources that prove my philosophical views bad
What kind of resources are we talking about here? Clearly it doesn’t help to make you talk to 1 person that holds contrasting views, as that seems to be your starting point. A study of 1000? A study of 100000? An empirical research over 100 years? 500? A meta analysis? 5 people talking to you about it? 10? 100?
So have you tried that with the people who agree with the draft? Did you find it was convincing to them?
We don’t have a way to do this. I don’t think we ever will. Wish the answer was different.
The one thing I will say is that logical argument is extremely ineffective for changing people’s views. Personal, emotional stories are best. The issue is that war and the draft is already highly emotionally charged, so it’s gonna be hard to find something that will strike a nerve with someone who hasn’t already come around on it.
Classically, you’d discuss their views with them and find the logical conclusions. Then you’d talk though if those ideas contradict with other ideas they hold. That sort of discussion/dialogue is basically all of Plato.
You can’t force someone to believe something
First you set up a news agency. You tune into their fear of inadequacy. You craft stories and spin truths to Make sure that they’re good and scared of the future of them and their family. You keep slowly chipping away until they have no problem with suspension of disbelief. You make sure that day and their friends all have the right tools to indoctrinate each other. Then you get small and big business on board by offering them tons of money to help keep everybody good and scared. You craft laws and put people in the right places in police organizations to make sure that the people you’re trying to scare them with are seen as the Boogeyman. Sure, it’s not technically forcing but it’s forcing…
Just to throw my two cents in: This user isn’t a genuinely curious ponderer, rather they are a Russian troll trying to fish for arguments they could further use in bad faith to lick Putin’s boot.
Just read through their comment history and make your own mind. This is not genuine and most everyone is just feeding the troll.
The question itself is worth asking though. A lot of good points here, but they’d be better given in good faith for someone genuine.
Irrelevant. If we’re learning, good for us.
Sure. But it might be useful for someone to know this before dedicating time responding genuinely. If it’s still irrelevant, great. If it might change someone’s mind about spending their time, then also great.
Only giving context here. Might be relevant to some.
It was obvious. All good.
Just to throw my two cents in: This user isn’t a genuinely curious ponderer, rather they are a Russian troll trying to fish for arguments they could further use in bad faith to lick Putin’s boot.
You sound like a victim of propaganda. Arguments to convince people that a forced draft is bad does not benefit the russian government or any other. I encourage you to read other people posts better and to think with your own brain.
My reading comprehension is just fine, your lack of capability to understand context and tendency to deal in absolutes and binaries in a world made of wide spectrums, shades of gray and unpredictability, on the other hand, does not seem to pass the smell test.
Either you argue in bad faith, are intentionally a shifting contrarian or just not competent enough to either understand the world or at the very least discuss it with others in a way that makes sense.
Do you approve of Russias invasion of Ukraine?
No and i do not approve any other country invasion of another. What about you?
Are you trying to say Ukraine is wrong to go into Russia?
“Are you trying to say U̶k̶r̶a̶i̶n̶e̶ the government of ukraine who is drafting against their will disabled men with heart disease, spinal injuries, epilepsy, autism, and other illnesses and disorders is wrong in ordering its soldier to invade Russia?”
This doesn’t sound good to me, nodoby should do this or have the power to do it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobilization_in_Ukraine#2024
https://www.businessinsider.com/ukrainian-soldiers-thought-order-to-invade-russia-was-joke-2024-8
Going into Russia has been a huge tactical success for them, we will see if it’s a strategic success, but chances are looking good. Drafting people against their will is kinda the definition of a draft. I haven’t looked into the exceptions or lack thereof specifically though.
Do you have a problem with Ukraine invading Russia at all after Russia is trying to annihilate them as a country? Do you have a problem with their conscription policies? Or a problem with using conscripts in the attack into Russia? Or a combination of those three?
I don’t think being drafted by force and ordered to invade another country is a good thing regardless of who you are.
Russia’s invasion is totally unjustified.
I think starting a war is very rarely justified. The evil prevented by attacking would need to be much larger than the inherent evil of the war. That’s pretty close to Justinian just war theory, but I’d weight present known evils much more highly than theoretically reduced future evils to account for uncertainty. For example, I think an allied invasion into Nazi Europe was justified.
“Ukraine is wrong and they shouldn’t actually have any military at all btw, also I’m not a Russian troll”
— You
It’s like watching a middle-schooler pick a fight, lose, then go crying to an adult that he’s being bullied. You’re pathetic.
I’m Finnish and have done my conscription and it was one of the best years of my life. I wouldn’t want to go into war, but I would definitely go and fight Russia if they had invaded Finland.
Like Ukraine has done, defending their country from the Russian “#+special military operation.”
Go cry into your limited access to the global community, Ruski. Slava Ukraini.
“Ukraine is wrong and they shouldn’t actually have any military at all btw, also I’m not a Russian troll”
never said such thing, that’s actually you saying it
never said such thing
No, it’s what is implied. Perhaps you don’t know the word?
So you think Ukraine is wrong to defend itself from Russian military aggression. You’ve admitted that.
The only people who think Russia is in the right about this are propaganda trolls and brainwashed Russian iidjits.
Even though op’s post history clearly points to the angle they’re trying to get across, I’ll answer for ya.
You educate the Russians. They’re living in a closed room and are being force fed bullshit so Ukraine looks like the bad guys. Once they’re educated and realize what the hell is going on, there will be some uproar to them being drafted and forced to fight Ukraine who has done nothing wrong. Maybe then, they’ll stand up to Putin and take his fucking ass out and this shit can be over. At that point maybe Russia can turn it around and become a productive member of society.
@InternetUser2012 I am Russian. Believe me when I say: most of us perfectly know what’s going on.
We’re just scared. That’s it.
I would be too. Stay safe.
@drq @InternetUser2012 @index
Yes, we’re scared. Of foreign jerks toppling our government again even though they established it here originally. And doing it repeatedly. And they did it in other countries. I’m with Ukrainians. But only with those who fight against NATO and not with it.
OP, nobody in that thread yesterday was saying it was a good thing. When a country gets invaded, your responses are always going to be a matter of lesser evils. Apologies for Godwin’s-Law-ing this off the bat, but it wasn’t great that the Allies drafted hundreds of thousands of people and invaded Nazi Germany. It was still better than every other option.
Godwin’s law itself always confused me. Of course comparisons with nazi Germany are overused, but it’s literally only 80 years ago. The fact that it could happen such a short time ago means that many of the same dangers, same lessons learned are very likely still completely applicable today. The human behaviors that led to Nazi Germany are still there, in/outgroup thinking, fear of foreigners/others, etc etc etc
So yeah I don’t think “Godwin’s law” existing as a concept should stop valid comparisons.
It doesn’t! It’s just a comment on how overused the comparisons are on the internet. To quote Godwin himself:
Although deliberately framed as if it were a law of nature or of mathematics, its purpose has always been rhetorical and pedagogical: I wanted folks who glibly compared someone else to Hitler to think a bit harder about the Holocaust.
You can’t make a person understand anything. If the very simple explanation of “draft the unwilling and send them to die” doesn’t convince them, they don’t want to be convinced. I couldn’t name a single person who thinks that’s good, just maybe some folks who would say it’s sometimes a grim necessity. And I guess I’m in the latter camp, but shit would have to be dire.
Yeah like somebody else said, you’d have to challenge their philosophical believes that leads them to hold this opinion first.
And that in turn requires argueing them from a position not based on “I disagree, and my opinion is the correct one”, but on philosophical, logical and argumentative flaws in their believe system. Which is not easy to do. At all. It’s in fact very hard, made harder by the fact that our brains can see information, actively realize this information is correct and contradicts something we thought of earlier, and yet also discard said information and stick to the existing mental model instead. Meaning that even if you do everything correct, they might go “Yes, that’s true” and then nothing happens, out of no ill will.
I’ll take bad faith posts for $1000 Alex
You can’t make anyone understand anything.
You can however question their belief and motivate them to consider other options.
I know you’re looking for arguments specifically for your opinion, but you should really try to avoid using arguments at all. If you set an argument, they will attack the argument and use this to dig into their existing belief on whatever is the actual topic of disagreement instead of addressing the actual topic. If you “attack” them, they will “defend”. This does not change their opinion.
It’s better to question them, so they have to think about why they believe in what they do. By questioning, you also show that you do not understand or agree with their opinion.
It also keeps the discussion about something that exists on their side. As soon as you introduce an argument, the discussion turns to being about something that you introduced, and that’s not at all what you intended to discuss or change. Be careful with that. They will attempt to make you present arguments. Don’t let them do that. It’s about what they believe.
Lol. Where was this post when Russia drafted citizens to continue the invasion?
The Ukrainian “invasion” is to force Russia to withdraw from the war Russia started.
Back then the forced draft supporters where hiding behind their hypocrisy
Personally, I’ve come to the conclusion that anyone who has the capacity and wisdom to know why wars are waged in the first place would never voluntarily fight in one.
It’s reinforced my philosophical idea that wars are just a way for humanity to purge the worst of itself.
Eh. Overseas? Definitely not. If my home is invaded? You bet your ass I’m fighting the invaders.
Defending Your hoke is poorly the only way a human can cooe with horrors of war and not come out completely broken.
Being on the invading side is essentially signing for life time of ment issues since there is no good way to cope besides openly saying yeah I like going to other countries to kill people for money…
I don’t have anything specific, but generally speaking those who idolize war have never seen the horrors of war. Speaking with veterans who have actually seen real combat is a good place to start.
Hunter Thompson opined that the US draft was better than the alternative.
Under the draft everyone, rich and poor, was expected to serve. With a ‘volunteer army’ only the poor need to go.
Another drafted vet said that draftees are more likely to speak up if civilians are targeted because the soldiers know that they are eventually going home. Lifers will obey all orders.
Under the draft everyone, rich and poor, was expected to serve.
You can’t expect shit from the parasitic rich… In practice poors went anyway.
Bone spurs bitch
And when they went, they chilled at some air force base like Bush Jr
Good point on war crimes but if war crimes are part of the order, peasants will have to do it and that’s how these things happens mostly anyway IMHO ie it was the order, then once they are caught it is always the “intern’s” fault
Systemic racism in the US ment an inproportionate number of drafted service personnel were black as white draftees were able to get college deferments in higher numbers.
This boiled back down to the poorer economic situation of black peoples in the Civil rights era fighting for basic equality.
The draft also caused friction that increased fraggings as this racist treatment by educated white officers or NCOs were dealt with locally. Fragging was furthered by a disconnect between draftees who wanted to just survive and glory hounds who saw military service and War as some great adventure.
I’m not part of the typical group that gets drafted (presumably young men) but my argument has always been that my country doesn’t own me, I’m not its property. If I want to fight for/serve my country I will, but IMO it has no right to just use me at will like a resource.
This especially goes for times like these, when everything is unaffordable, nobody can get a house, you can barely see a doctor, the police don’t even bother solving most low-level crime and the rich are lining their pockets with our money. The system is not upholding its end of the social contract at all, so why should it expect any extraordinary measures from us?
The 13th amendment protects us from forced labor. No matter what the supreme court might bring up bullshit about how other countries do it.
Hey Dipshit’s, maybe needless wars wouldn’t start if it wasn’t fucking possible to force people to fight in them.
Being drafted (which is forced labour where you additionally have a high chance of being killed or wounded) is always not okay, not just when it is done to invade another country.
