I’d quibble slightly and argue that there’s a strong case that gender is also performative so if society generally deems you a woman, you’re also a woman.
External perception should not be a qualifier of gender. Passing shouldn’t be required for a trans person to be a member of their gender, much as a feminine presenting man is still a man and a masculine presenting woman is still a woman, unless they say otherwise. Because it’s all made up anyways, we can allow the definition to be as flexible as gender itself is.
But yes, gender is often performative, but rather than defining that in the terms of the audience, define it in terms of the cast.
As a trans person this strikes me as not really understanding what transness fully is? Like I know there are non-binary folk who more or less feel that they are beyond gender and feel like they have no internal gender compass - but I can’t help but wonder if that is actually part of the cis experience as the more I talk to cis people the more I think the majority of cis people actually don’t have a an internal gender. To them it is very much performative as they don’t really have any internal reward system.
Gender to a lot of cis people seems a nebulous thing that they may feel attached to the same way they might be a sort of arbitrary team. They might feel praised for performing it “correctly” but that has almost nothing in common with actual gender euphoria. Ask what they think it would be like swapping bodies with a member of the opposite sex and they are usually more concerned with practically or on whether or not they are attractive in their new form. Most binary trans people are less concerned with being attractive as they are with seemlessly passing. It would be better to be an ugly but undeniable flawlessly recognizable member of their gender than the most attractive specimen of their birth sex. Sometimes that is because it is a matter of safety and security because passing means avoiding harassment but moreover it is because we do not care to appease our casual external viewer. The exact comfort is ours to benefit when we are alone because our drives were never externally driven.
Speaking as one who experiences it gender euphoria makes literary no logical sense. It operates entirely outside of logic and is entirely internal. It often comes mixed with guilt because a lot of the time the social conditioning that we should not like the things we do is at war with the truth that we have zero control about how we actually feel. The theory of gender performativity is incomplete and describes a fluidity - an almost liquid nature of internal gender. But gender can also be entirely and mandatorily rigid, enforced by internal triggers which slap and stroke by turns entirely independent of society. It is this rigidity rather than it’s liquidity that most cis people seem to have a hard time grasping. Some definitely recognize it and have that same rigidity but it seems comparatively rare.
Being trans I recognize that my euphorias and dysphorias are not based out of performance. Performance is something I utilize as a tool to communicate people to not bring attention to the things that pain me and to make me feel comfortable. The company of people do supply a sort of reflective quality but that is just one way to be conscious of my physical body. If you call me by a pronoun set that references the physical things I hate about my physical experience of living it brings my attention onto those things. I could be naked and alone on a deserted island and the way I feel about my body would be the same. The things which make me feel generally bad are things like the way the weight of my body is distributed and my muscular structures which I can be aware of every time I need to move in a way more physically demanding than sitting or walking. I can hear my own voice and feel it insufficient and ghastly. I can see in any reflection the features of my face or shillohette. These things don’t go away when I am alone, in fact oftentimes being alone with them offers less distraction from them.
Abolishing gender often is counter to a lot of the desires of trans people because it holds a language we can adapt to and profit from. Removing the limitations of toxic forms of masculinity and feminity is a universally good thing but removing the distinction entirely undercuts the actual joy to be revelled in embracing and speaking that cultural language.
To me the abolition of gender would be amazingly freeing.
It wouldn’t matter if I chose to wear a dress to work or a suit.
It wouldn’t matter if I chose the pink shirt over the blue shirt.
It wouldn’t matter if I wore makeup and nail polish and be a construction worker.
Yes, I could do all of those things right now, nothing stops me rather than the feeling of being judged by others, hence the ‘external validation’ of gender.
None of those things above are inherently feminine or masculine but a lot of us are taught that they are and judge others on those ‘rules’.
For me, it is hard to fathom how someone who experiences so much suffering from gender dysphoria can then reenforce that same gender expression in society. To me, I’d just rather kids growing up who wear whatever clothes and behave how ever they want to (within reason).
If all people didn’t perceive certain clothes, behaviours and ideas as feminine or masculine then people would just be people.
I won’t hope to imagine your own internal thoughts but I am curious, if you weren’t taught what a ‘woman’ is and what a ‘man’ is do you still think you would have experienced gender dysmorphia?
Also, as far as I know body dysmorphia is different to gender dysmorphia. I.e. I can identify as a man but still want to keep my vagina.
I’m also not claiming you wouldn’t have still had body dysmorphia even if gender was abolished.
In a philosophical sense of the strict definition, you’re correct. I see no good reason to use our language like that though, as it would inevitably hurt trans people. I choose to instead use gender as an identifier assigned by each individual, as it’s our colloquial definition and less harmful to trans people. In my opinion, if someone identifies as a woman, she is a woman, regardless of external perception.
And yes, I also agree that gender would be better abolished and relegated to a vibes-based, self-identified label for people that want it.
I’d quibble slightly and argue that there’s a strong case that gender is also performative so if society generally deems you a woman, you’re also a woman.
External perception should not be a qualifier of gender. Passing shouldn’t be required for a trans person to be a member of their gender, much as a feminine presenting man is still a man and a masculine presenting woman is still a woman, unless they say otherwise. Because it’s all made up anyways, we can allow the definition to be as flexible as gender itself is.
But yes, gender is often performative, but rather than defining that in the terms of the audience, define it in terms of the cast.
Without external validation I’m not sure we can have gender.
Don’t get me wrong here btw, I’m not conservative on this issue, I’m a gender abolitionist.
As a trans person this strikes me as not really understanding what transness fully is? Like I know there are non-binary folk who more or less feel that they are beyond gender and feel like they have no internal gender compass - but I can’t help but wonder if that is actually part of the cis experience as the more I talk to cis people the more I think the majority of cis people actually don’t have a an internal gender. To them it is very much performative as they don’t really have any internal reward system.
Gender to a lot of cis people seems a nebulous thing that they may feel attached to the same way they might be a sort of arbitrary team. They might feel praised for performing it “correctly” but that has almost nothing in common with actual gender euphoria. Ask what they think it would be like swapping bodies with a member of the opposite sex and they are usually more concerned with practically or on whether or not they are attractive in their new form. Most binary trans people are less concerned with being attractive as they are with seemlessly passing. It would be better to be an ugly but undeniable flawlessly recognizable member of their gender than the most attractive specimen of their birth sex. Sometimes that is because it is a matter of safety and security because passing means avoiding harassment but moreover it is because we do not care to appease our casual external viewer. The exact comfort is ours to benefit when we are alone because our drives were never externally driven.
Speaking as one who experiences it gender euphoria makes literary no logical sense. It operates entirely outside of logic and is entirely internal. It often comes mixed with guilt because a lot of the time the social conditioning that we should not like the things we do is at war with the truth that we have zero control about how we actually feel. The theory of gender performativity is incomplete and describes a fluidity - an almost liquid nature of internal gender. But gender can also be entirely and mandatorily rigid, enforced by internal triggers which slap and stroke by turns entirely independent of society. It is this rigidity rather than it’s liquidity that most cis people seem to have a hard time grasping. Some definitely recognize it and have that same rigidity but it seems comparatively rare.
Being trans I recognize that my euphorias and dysphorias are not based out of performance. Performance is something I utilize as a tool to communicate people to not bring attention to the things that pain me and to make me feel comfortable. The company of people do supply a sort of reflective quality but that is just one way to be conscious of my physical body. If you call me by a pronoun set that references the physical things I hate about my physical experience of living it brings my attention onto those things. I could be naked and alone on a deserted island and the way I feel about my body would be the same. The things which make me feel generally bad are things like the way the weight of my body is distributed and my muscular structures which I can be aware of every time I need to move in a way more physically demanding than sitting or walking. I can hear my own voice and feel it insufficient and ghastly. I can see in any reflection the features of my face or shillohette. These things don’t go away when I am alone, in fact oftentimes being alone with them offers less distraction from them.
Abolishing gender often is counter to a lot of the desires of trans people because it holds a language we can adapt to and profit from. Removing the limitations of toxic forms of masculinity and feminity is a universally good thing but removing the distinction entirely undercuts the actual joy to be revelled in embracing and speaking that cultural language.
I respectfully disagree.
To me the abolition of gender would be amazingly freeing.
It wouldn’t matter if I chose to wear a dress to work or a suit.
It wouldn’t matter if I chose the pink shirt over the blue shirt.
It wouldn’t matter if I wore makeup and nail polish and be a construction worker.
Yes, I could do all of those things right now, nothing stops me rather than the feeling of being judged by others, hence the ‘external validation’ of gender.
None of those things above are inherently feminine or masculine but a lot of us are taught that they are and judge others on those ‘rules’.
For me, it is hard to fathom how someone who experiences so much suffering from gender dysphoria can then reenforce that same gender expression in society. To me, I’d just rather kids growing up who wear whatever clothes and behave how ever they want to (within reason).
If all people didn’t perceive certain clothes, behaviours and ideas as feminine or masculine then people would just be people.
I won’t hope to imagine your own internal thoughts but I am curious, if you weren’t taught what a ‘woman’ is and what a ‘man’ is do you still think you would have experienced gender dysmorphia?
Also, as far as I know body dysmorphia is different to gender dysmorphia. I.e. I can identify as a man but still want to keep my vagina.
I’m also not claiming you wouldn’t have still had body dysmorphia even if gender was abolished.
In a philosophical sense of the strict definition, you’re correct. I see no good reason to use our language like that though, as it would inevitably hurt trans people. I choose to instead use gender as an identifier assigned by each individual, as it’s our colloquial definition and less harmful to trans people. In my opinion, if someone identifies as a woman, she is a woman, regardless of external perception.
And yes, I also agree that gender would be better abolished and relegated to a vibes-based, self-identified label for people that want it.