• TheObviousSolution@lemm.ee
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    2 months ago

    I can see criminals easily exploiting this default behavior to stop the car and steal from those inside.

    Where’s a Johnny cab when you need it, it knows how to deal with criminals.

    • ✺roguetrick✺@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      I doubt choosing to stick up a vehicle covered in cameras with someone who likely isn’t even carrying cash is anyone’s idea of a good payoff.

      • Wildly_Utilize@infosec.pub
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        2 months ago

        idk i think plenty of people carry expensive stuff on them

        what a thief could actually get for them is another matter but clearly that doesnt stop them from trying

        • AA5B@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          This is where you carry a window spike and smash and grab. Why make it so much more complicated?

        • LifeInMultipleChoice@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          2 months ago

          The doors aren’t going to open from the outside, and authorities would be alerted immediately. Breaking the glass on a car window or holding people up at gun point… Yeah. Easier in the parking lot of any gas station, grocery store, neighborhood, Walmart, Mall, Jewelry store, movie theater. Wherever really. The people can get out of the car in an emergency just like any other car. Running someone down with a car is not the answer to many situations.

          • Rekorse@sh.itjust.works
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            2 months ago

            Affluent people taking a driverless car from the shopping district would absolutely be targets.

            Put yourself in a drug addicts shoes, or just a thief’s shoes. How would you make this work?

            It doesnt take much creativity, and the people who would do this type of thing are not known to be short on creativity.

    • intensely_human@lemm.ee
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      2 months ago

      My car isn’t driverless, but I as the driver have less control than ever before.

      It’s an EV, and it will not shift to drive or reverse if the charging cable is attached.

      Great for preventing me from destroying a charger. Terrible for getting away from someone trying to mug me.

      Far too much of the safety features these days assume an environment in which all harm is accidental. This comes at the cost of safety in environments where someone is trying to harm another person.

      • AA5B@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        This is the seatbelt argument all over again. The safety features protect people in the majority of scenarios. While there may be scenarios where it does more harm than good, they are rare. You’re much safer with the safety feature.

        • jacksilver@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          I don’t think there is a car where the seat belt is tied to anything besides a little notification beep. Seems like a different situation if the “safety” feature dictates how the car is used.

          • AA5B@lemmy.world
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            2 months ago

            Seatbelts are legally mandated. When that was going through, some people argued against that requirement on the grounds that there edge cases where it dies more harm than good.

            Just like the case here, those edge cases are vanishingly rare.

            Note: my car won’t move without a seatbelt, but it’s an EV so furthers the argument that EVs are taking control from the driver.

            • jacksilver@lemmy.world
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              2 months ago

              Fair point then about the arguement around safety. For me the bigger issue is control. Cars with kill switches and conditions to use is a slippery slope. Just look at what’s happened with software and media. Don’t want to have to pirate my car or load custom firmware so I can use it as I want.

      • Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        You don’t complain about having to open your door or start the engine when escaping a threat.

        Having to unplug a cable during a very specific, imagined threat seems like a niche problem.

        • jaemo@sh.itjust.works
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          2 months ago

          Additionally: if you’re at a gas station filling an ICE vehicle and you get mugged, and you panic and peel out, there’s gas going everywhere, plenty of potential ignition sources etc.

          The argument “I have more control and agency therefore I am quantifiably safer” can fuck alllllll the way off. Safety regulations are written in blood.

        • Anyolduser@lemmynsfw.com
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          2 months ago

          The difference being that not being able to start the motor with the door open is only a problem if the driver was being attacked in a parking lot.

          It’s not too big of a leap to imagine a world where a person could immobilize a car at a red light with the plug cut off from a public charger. Wall up to a stopped car, open the hatch (maybe it needs a pry bar) and put the dummy plug in. Now the car is immobilized. Smash the driver side window and they’re in business.

          Sure, there are some safeguards that can be added like requiring a current to immobilize the vehicle, but it’s far from the simplest or safest answer. Car manufacturers need to stop putting in hard limits and just use alarms instead. I bought a new Subaru that has collision detection standard. The hedge next to my driveway was overgrown, but I drove right through it. The car sounded an alarm and flashed a bunch of lights, but it didn’t engage the brakes, I was able to blast through an obstacle that I knew was minor even though the car thought it was a threat. If a manufacturer feels compelled to add a safety system, it’s possible to do so without taking control away from the driver.

          • nef@slrpnk.net
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            2 months ago

            It’s not too big of a leap

            I think it is. I’d like to see at least one documented case of this happening before people start demanding that cars be able to move while plugged in. Plus, in the very scenario you describe, the car would still be able to move, no? Attaching a charger does nothing unless you’re changing to parked at every red light.

            The only time you’d need to drive away while charging is if the attacker walks up while you’re sitting in your parked car, or kindly decides to let you get in before doing anything.

            I can’t find a single instance of someone being unable to escape because of their charger, so maybe let’s worry about it if it ever becomes a problem.

          • Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world
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            2 months ago

            It’s not too big of a leap to imagine a world where a person could immobilize a car at a red light with the plug cut off from a public charger. Wall up to a stopped car, open the hatch (maybe it needs a pry bar) and put the dummy plug in.

            Sounds like a lot of hassle. If they want to immoblise a self driving car they just stand in front of it.

            Why carry a plug cut off from a public charger when you can just stab the tyres?

            Use the pry bar to smash the window and open the door. Not open the charging port.

            • Anyolduser@lemmynsfw.com
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              2 months ago
              1. It’s about hitting electric cars, self driving or otherwise.

              2. Cars can still move with punctured tires, at least far enough that a would-be robber or carjacker could get dragged a good distance.

              3. You smash the window and open the door. Now the panicked driver is speeding away, leaving you high and dry or dragging you along.

              Being able to completely immobilize a vehicle while keeping it intact is a criminal’s wet dream. It’s incumbent on car manufacturers to consider that while implementing safety features.

          • AA5B@lemmy.world
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            2 months ago

            How would they open the charge port door? I can still imagine it because I have a good imagination but it’s just not going to happen.

            Is someone really going to go through the trouble of carrying a cut off cable and a piece of electronics to open the charge port, and have time to walk up to the car click to open, wait for the door to open and insert the cable? There are faster and easier ways to immobilize a car, why would anyone make it so complicated?

            And that assumes that safety feature is still engaged when you’re already driving

            • Anyolduser@lemmynsfw.com
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              2 months ago

              Pry bar to open the hatch, like I said.

              And yes, today people are walking around with angle grinders to chop off catalytic converters.

              • AA5B@lemmy.world
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                2 months ago

                Not at a stop light, nor as a way to immobilize you. While they can steal your catalytic converter surprisingly quickly, they’ll look for a minute or two of quiet time to slide under your car.

    • grandkaiser@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      Thank God for cars. Imagine riding public transport and getting felt up/robbed/harassed. Glad we can all agree on this Lemmy 👍

      Obviously this is the worst of both worlds, but it’s a weird flex to support cars.

      • Rekorse@sh.itjust.works
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        2 months ago

        In public the group of people watching and in close proximity prevents a lot of crime. Criminals feel shame too and at the very least want to prolong their ability to continue to make money how they do.

        A single person in a car is vulnerable simply because they are alone. They think the car protects them but its trivial to smash a window and pull someone out.

        • capital@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          That was in response to being robbed.

          I think the phrase you’re looking for is “defending yourself”.

          • CileTheSane@lemmy.ca
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            2 months ago

            I don’t live in a 3rd world country, so I guess I just don’t understand the concept of needing to arm myself before leaving my house because I’m likely to need a deadly weapon while I go about my business.

            • mojofrododojo@lemmy.world
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              2 months ago

              I don’t live in a 3rd world country

              lol the US has the highest death rate from gun violence - it’s literally the #1 killer of children.

              which is not to assert that adding more firearms will help the situation, but it’s got fuckall to do with living in a first world country or third world country.

              • Obi@sopuli.xyz
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                2 months ago

                In these kinds of discussions you can assume the third world country jab was a reference to the US.

              • CileTheSane@lemmy.ca
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                2 months ago

                As an aside: part of the definition of a First World Country includes being a “stable democracy”.

                If a poll was done of American citizens asking them “do you think fraud will play a part in the upcoming election?” I would be shocked if less than 80% said yes. That doesn’t sound like a stable democracy to me.

            • capital@lemmy.world
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              2 months ago

              What country do you live in? I’m curious which one has no theft or violent crime.

              • BigDanishGuy@sh.itjust.works
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                2 months ago

                Not OP check out my username for an idea of where I live. Besides a bit of gang on gang action in our capital, violent crimes are extremely rare. It’s maybe once a year that police have to shoot at a person, and even then police officers will assess the situation and if possible not go for center mass.

                Note how I left out theft. That’s because you can’t directly use violence to protect property.

                • capital@lemmy.world
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                  2 months ago

                  Note how I left out theft. That’s because you can’t directly use violence to protect property.

                  I remember hearing this when I lived in the UK for a few years and I was blown away. What are you expected to do if being robbed? Let it happen?

                  • T156@lemmy.world
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                    2 months ago

                    You do what the police do, and provide a proportionate response.

                    A gun is only to be used if you are in imminent danger of your life. A robbery is arguably not that, unless they’re trying to steal your organs or prostheses.

                    There’s a reason your average supermarket security guard doesn’t immediately whip out the Mini-Nuke the moment they see a shoplifter.

                    There’s also something to be said about the place you’re living in, where you’re to be terrified of stabbists and robberers the moment you step out-of-doors. Do you live in a hive of scum and villainy?

                  • BigDanishGuy@sh.itjust.works
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                    2 months ago

                    There is a solution, it’s called insurance. I know that you wouldn’t get your family heirlooms back, but neither would you being armed but not home.

                    I know the other guy wouldn’t say it, so I’ll go ahead and do it: you sound like you’re out for revenge, but you don’t know on whom to exact it. I fear that you could end up shooting a porch pirate in the back while claiming self defense.

                  • CileTheSane@lemmy.ca
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                    2 months ago

                    Call the police. Are you in physical danger? If not why are you putting yourself in physical danger?

              • CileTheSane@lemmy.ca
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                2 months ago

                There’s a difference between “violent crime exists” and “violent crime is so prevalent that regular citizens need to carry around an implement designed to kill people quickly while they go about their daily lives.”

                • capital@lemmy.world
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                  2 months ago

                  I’ve never been in a serious vehicle accident.

                  Still wear my seat belt though.

                  • CileTheSane@lemmy.ca
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                    2 months ago

                    “Wearing a seatbelt is the same as walking around with a device that can near instantly kill people.” Is something said by someone living in a dystopia.

                • intensely_human@lemm.ee
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                  2 months ago

                  There’s a difference between “violent crime exists” and “violent crime is so prevalent that regular citizens need to carry around an implement designed to kill people quickly while they go about their daily lives.”

                  Only if you haven’t yet experienced violent crime.

                  I carry a weapon because of one violent encounter I experienced in 2009.

                  I decided that I never want it to happen again, so I am content to carry a weapon for the 1/1000000 times that it happens.

                  I’ve had hundreds of thousands of encounters with strangers and only one of them involved the stranger trying to seriously hurt me. That one was enough to change my view on the nature of reality.

                  Crashes don’t have to be prevalent in one’s life in order to wear a seatbelt.

                  • CileTheSane@lemmy.ca
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                    2 months ago

                    I have sympathy for someone who’s actually been a victim of violent crime, and it’s a shame therapy isn’t a more viable option. However, there’s a big difference between
                    “I was a victim of violent crime and feel more comfortable having a means of protection on me” and
                    “This might lead to robberies.”
                    “That’s what guns are for.”

              • CileTheSane@lemmy.ca
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                2 months ago

                Reasonable Force

                Reasonable force refers to the amount of force that is necessary for a person to defend himself or his property, without going overboard. It is especially important to prove whether or not the force a person used was reasonable in order to determine his level of liability for the crime. Hence why reasonable force is also referred to as “legal force.” For instance, a father who gets into an argument with his son’s baseball coach, shoving him with his hands, has started the conflict. If the coach, in defending himself, picks up a baseball bat and slams it into the father’s head several times, it could not reasonably be considered self defense.

                If a person can prove that he used reasonable force to defend himself, he may be able to avoid being prosecuted for a crime.

                If a person uses more force than what would be considered necessary to protect himself from an aggressor, then this would be considered excessive or unreasonable force. Once excessive force has been proven, then the defendant’s self defense argument is considered forfeited. For instance, a defendant is justified in using force that is intended or likely to cause death or severe injury if someone violently enters his home, and he believes such force is necessary to prevent harm from coming to himself, or to another person in the home.

                https://legaldictionary.net/self-defense/

                • capital@lemmy.world
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                  2 months ago

                  And you understand that reasonable force varies by state, right? I’ve said it multiple times.

                  I will use the maximum allowed for the state I reside in. I have lived in states which allowed for deadly force to protect property.

                  • CileTheSane@lemmy.ca
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                    2 months ago

                    Yes, you’ve made it quite clear you are happy to murder “undesirables” on the flimsiest excuse you think you can get away with.

          • CileTheSane@lemmy.ca
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            2 months ago

            In civilized countries “self defense” means you might have to punch someone. “You should have an easy way to kill someone on you at all times, and keep it hidden so they don’t know” is not self defense, but clear signs of a dystopia.

            • T156@lemmy.world
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              2 months ago

              Especially when it causes law enforcement to become so paranoid of the citizens they’re ostensibly meant to protect, that a mere hailstone landing on the car roof immediately causes them to believe they’re being fired upon.

              That just sounds like a terrible time for everyone involved.

              At that point, you’re basically turning the constabulary into soldiers.

              • CileTheSane@lemmy.ca
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                2 months ago

                If citizens have a “Constitutional Right” to have a gun, why does exercising the right so often result in law enforcement killing them without a trial?

            • intensely_human@lemm.ee
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              2 months ago

              No, being limited in self defense to the power of your body is a pre-civilized state. Asking women to punch people to defend themselves is nature rules. That’s where whoever’s biggest gets to take advantage of people.

              • CileTheSane@lemmy.ca
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                2 months ago

                I have no problems with people carrying mace for self defense. There are highly effective less lethal options.

            • capital@lemmy.world
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              2 months ago

              In civilized countries “self defense” means you might have to punch someone.

              My back is fucked and have an 80% rating from the VA. I’m not getting into fist fights anymore.

              If someone gets blown away stealing shit, the world has become a better place, frankly.

              • CileTheSane@lemmy.ca
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                2 months ago

                “Property is more valuable than human lives.”
                A statement from a person in a developed country apparently…

                • capital@lemmy.world
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                  2 months ago

                  “The strong should be allowed to do whatever they want to the weak” A statement from a person in a developed country apparently…

                  • pooperNickel@lemm.ee
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                    2 months ago

                    You’re talking about things like it’s obvious they are just important as lives. Fucking disgusting

                • capital@lemmy.world
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                  2 months ago

                  Fascism is when you don’t let people steal your stuff.

                  The word has been devalued on Lemmy but this is a new low.

                  • kureta@lemmy.ml
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                    2 months ago

                    I was referring to summary execution of a thief being a good thing.

      • interdimensionalmeme@lemmy.ml
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        2 months ago

        Oops now everyone got guns and you get killed by some random. I’m sure judge dredd will save you. Try being more violent, violence solves all problem. It’s self defense that mean it’s right. Always remember, dead bodies tell no tales. Aim for the center of mass and always empty the mag to make sure there is only your side of the story left.

        • intensely_human@lemm.ee
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          2 months ago

          Actually increasing the level of possible violence (and also the uncertainty of violent outcomes) does lead to a reduction in aggression. You have to be willing to think it through though.

          • interdimensionalmeme@lemmy.ml
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            2 months ago

            “What if he has a gun”

            Thieves in your area are now packing, enjoy the upgrade on unpredictable violence

            Try faster violence escalation next for extra spicy neighborhoods

      • TheKMAP@lemmynsfw.com
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        2 months ago

        I prefer to reduce demand, instead. Everyday people who feel happy and safe don’t feel the need to be violent.

        • intensely_human@lemm.ee
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          2 months ago

          This is true of everyday people. But a small percentage of people are psychopaths, who are perfectly happy to be violent whenever they can get away with it.

          A seriously deprived scenario will make others violent, but there is always a subset that is violent even in comfortable situations.

      • Todd Bonzalez@lemm.ee
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        2 months ago

        Would you rather be reading a story about how this woman was arrested for murder? Just because these men were being pigs doesn’t mean you get to kill them…

        • intensely_human@lemm.ee
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          2 months ago

          Well not if you aren’t armed. If you are armed, you do get to kill people.

          An armed society is a polite society.

          • LifeInMultipleChoice@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            2 months ago

            Polite society my ass. I’ve owned guns for over 15 years and never has a gun de-escalated a situation. People who carry in public are way more likely to kill someone and to get themselves killed. Guns cause aggressiveness far more often.

            The woman was never in danger, if she pulled a gun, her, the harrassers, and all other bystanders would have been in danger.

          • immutable@lemm.ee
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            2 months ago

            I suppose you might get to kill people but that doesn’t mean that the law is going to be ok with that. Proportionality of force is a thing. Stand your ground states are doing their best to change that, but that’s a very mixed bag.

            If you shoot and kill someone for blocking your waymo and being a creep, in most places you are going to have to convince a district attorney and a jury that you were justified in ending their life. Even if you do that and escape criminal liability, you’ll then have to convince more people not to hold you liable in civil court.

            Sounds pretty cool to go “I got a shooty bang bang so if I feel threatened in any way I can come out blasting.” It is true in the moment, but if you place any value on your future liberty, money, and time you might want to consider the ramifications of killing another human being.

            Finally, even if society decides you shouldn’t face any criminal or civil penalty for killing someone, you will have to face yourself. Sitting behind a keyboard it sounds badass to shoot someone that’s pissing you off. In the moment you will probably feel justified. Many a young man sent to war or employed as a police officer didn’t think that taking a life would change them, only to find the reality of taking a life is not what the action movies promised. Self doubt, self loathing, ptsd, depression, these are all common reactions to reckoning with the fact that you are the cause of another persons death.

            It is hard to feel like a righteous badass as you watch a grieving widow mourn someone that may have even done something stupid or wrong, knowing that their child has no father now and their wife no partner. Are these people jerks and creeps, sure, is the punishment for being a jerk or creep death, rarely. It is a heavy burden to carry to end another.

        • GreyEyedGhost@lemmy.ca
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          2 months ago

          I once had someone get in my face and say, “Are you man enough to fight me?” I responded with “I’m man enough to find non-violent solutions to my problems.” Why should someone be proud of the problem-resolution method of choice for 3-year-olds?

          • intensely_human@lemm.ee
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            2 months ago

            Violence is for situations when one’s choice of other resolution methods is gone. Such situations do exist.

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              2 months ago

              Yes, and the vast majority of scenarios where that is the case is where one party made completely unreasonable demands or turned to violence as the first option.

          • dubious@lemmy.world
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            2 months ago

            there aren’t always non-violent solutions. i accept that reality. it’s nothing to be proud of, but i would be ashamed if i couldn’t deal with that truth.

            • GreyEyedGhost@lemmy.ca
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              2 months ago

              You’re correct, there aren’t always non-violent solutions, but those are often due to people who insist on engaging in violence, whether it be invading another country or taking offense at someone pulling into their driveway.

              • intensely_human@lemm.ee
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                2 months ago

                Yes. It only takes one party to initiate violence involving two parties.

                This is why it is necessary to be prepared for violence even if one never initiates violence.

                • GreyEyedGhost@lemmy.ca
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                  2 months ago

                  I’m not sure what your point is. It is completely orthogonal to mine. In the same vein, no, you aren’t responsible for other people’s choices, and yes, rabid dogs (or people who act like them) are unlikely to listen to reason. Neither of those are good reasons to start fights, and that statement neither says that all fights are avoidable or that one mustn’t defend oneself.