This is a different situation though, for a few reasons: first, I actually don’t agree, once you’ve promised the raises, people will reasonably make plans in anticipation of them, so I do think you have an obligation (maybe not a legal one, but that isn’t what we’re talking about) to give them once you’ve made those promises. I don’t recall the women involved in any of this 4b stuff promising a relationship to any man or group of men, it isn’t like they “were going to get it” already.
Second, and perhaps more importantly, the stakes for business and personal relationships are different. We don’t generally require continuing and revokable consent for giving someone money, the state can for example issue someone a monetary fine, and that’s considered an acceptable consequence for many things. If you promise to buy something, and they then come to deliver it and you decide “actually I’ve changed my mind, keep it, I’m not buying it from you anymore”, the other person can in a number of circumstances sue you for breaking your agreement.
However, if the state were to mandate that someone enter into a relationship, or have sex with someone, as a penalty for something, that would be considered a human rights abuse where the monetary fine would not, and if you were to tell someone that you found some type of flower super romantic, and then they came over with those flowers to give, but you then told them you weren’t feeling a connection, no reasonable person would take their side if they tried to sue you to force you into a romantic relationship with them.
To put it a simpler way, if you promise someone a raise, the default state once that promise is made is getting the raise, as in professional matters, honoring promises and agreements is fundamental, revoking it later is therefore taking something from them, because you’re changing that default state to something worse for them. Personal relations do not have the same dynamic. It is well known and understood that people sometimes change their minds on romantic and sexual relationships, or sometimes just aren’t in the mood anymore. Promises don’t carry the same weight, when there exists an absolute right to revoke consent at any point and have things not continue. As such, the default state is “not having a relationship/encounter with a particular person”, right up until it happens. If the person in question never decides to enter into that relationship, because they have decided that they don’t want to even deal with having one at all, they haven’t taken anything from whoever else might have been interested in them, because they haven’t changed that state. There was never a reason for a guy to expect one of these 4b women would date them in the first place, and no reason to expect that they wouldn’t one day leave again if they did.
I actually don’t agree, once you’ve promised the raises, people will reasonably make plans in anticipation of them, so I do think you have an obligation (maybe not a legal one, but that isn’t what we’re talking about) to give them once you’ve made those promises. I don’t recall the women involved in any of this 4b stuff promising a relationship to any man or group of men, it isn’t like they “were going to get it” already.
I was very careful with my words, and very intentionally avoided the word “promise” because I knew it would be spun this way, even though I would argue that even if one promises to do something, they still have the right to say no (i.e. Is a woman who promises to have sex with a man required to have sex with that man? Or does she still maintain the right to change her mind?)
So can we retry again without putting the word “promise” in my mouth? Am I punishing that person by deciding to not give them a raise as a retaliation of the person saying “fuck you” to me? Or is it because the raise was never theirs, it’s impossible for me to punish them by taking it away?
I am saying that if what is to be given and then not is money, then it is punishment, but if it is sex, it is not, because these things are fundamentally different in a way that makes it reasonable to take one back without justification but not the other
Honestly, unsure. I dont think that you have a particular obligation to have sex with any sort of person, and I do think that you have an obligation (not necessarily a legal obligation, but a “being a decent person” one) to not be racist. It isnt exactly unusual for a person to prefer their partner belong to a specific category (for example, a gay man is likely to refuse to consider being with a woman, but I dont think they would be a misogynist for that). That being said, there isnt a particular difference between all white women and any other sort of women that would make for much of a reason to do this beyond just hating white women in particular, whereas for a woman, there is a notable difference between a man and, for those who would be attracted to them as well, a woman, as far as partners goes, because with a man, there exists a possibility of pregnancy, which could be dangerous in the current state of the country.
But your whole point relied on the “promise” aspect of it. If there was no promise of it, only the likelihood of it happening, then it falls under the same thing that there is no crime by withholding it. I agree that sex and money are different, as they are legally held to different standards. But that’s a distinction without a meaning in the context of the current discussion.
Let me try it this way.
I suggest that I’m going to have sex with someone. Then, as a form of retaliation, I tell them I’m not going to have sex with them. By your logic, this is not punishment.
I suggest that I’m going to give someone money. Then, as a form of retaliation, I tell them I’m not going to give them that money. By your logic, this is punishment.
This seems blatantly contradictory, even if we maintain that withholding sex is less a punishment. It’s still the same thing - withholding something that would likely have been given had there been no reason to retaliate - the only difference is that the state can’t do anything about the punishment when it comes to sex.
I suggest that I’m going to have sex with someone. Then, as a form of retaliation, I tell them I’m not going to have sex with them. By your logic, this is not punishment.
I think I see the problem with your logic here. This whole 4B movement is about women taking back control over their bodies, especially in an upcoming era that’s allowing misogynistic men to be more vocal and accepted in society.
It has nothing to do with punishment. Claiming that women are “retaliating against” or “punishing” men is making the topic about men instead of what it’s really about - women’s rights.
No women is required to date a man, or sleep with a man, or even associate with men. Period. 4B is just a way for women to protect themselves from the incoming onslaught of openly misogynistic men that Trump’s presidency is justifying.
Will women dump their current partners and/or spouses to join this movement? Doubtful, unless there are already some red flags there that they’re just now picking up. But that’s inconsequential because again, this movement isn’t about men.
As men, it’s so easy for us live our lives without fear. Almost no one tries to rape and/or murder us because they thought we were hot. We hardly ever have stalkers. So we don’t realize just how prevalent that scenario is in a woman’s life. Even my own wife, who I always felt was tougher than me, is still terrified to go out by herself at night because she’s already been victim to sexual harassment and assault, multiple times. That’s not something I’ve ever had to deal with in my own life.
And the crazy things is, women really don’t know who they’re getting involved with until it’s too late. Sure, to us men it seems like most men are fine and harmless. But that’s because we’re not the sexual target of most men. A dude who seems like a fine gentleman might have some fucked-up desires or views on women’s autonomy behind closed doors, and they can be really good at pretending to be a decent human being in public. It’s only once a woman is alone behind those closed doors that they might truly learn the awful plans a guy has for her, and at that point, it might be too late to get out without danger to life or limb. Or worse, surviving a situation like that and then having no one believe you in court, so you can’t prevent that person from stalking you.
Preventing that scenario in the first place is the whole point of 4B. Women always live in fear of dating men because it’s always a gamble. Truly kind and respectful men who understand boundaries and never push them are extremely rare. Even “decent” men still think with their dicks from time to time and push boundaries, hoping they can convince their partner to cave and give them what they want. With the surge of misogynists coming out of the woodwork and being openly threatening to women, it risks spreading acceptance of the mindset that women don’t get bodily autonomy around men. So abstaining from men entirely is the safest thing they can do right now. It’s too risky trying to figure out if someone is truly a gentleman or if they’re just putting on a mask to get laid.
Basically, women are saying they’re trying to protect their lives and you’re trying to turn the discussion toward men’s rights instead. The topic isn’t about men. And treating a women’s decision to retain bodily autonomy like it’s a reward or punishment for guys is honestly super misogynistic in itself. No man is entitled to a women’s body; it is not punishment for a woman to decide not to associate with a man.
It has nothing to do with punishment. Claiming that women are “retaliating against” or “punishing” men is making the topic about men instead of what it’s really about - women’s rights.
The article makes it clear that this is retaliation against all men for voting against their rights. Even though there were plenty of men that voted with them, and plenty of women who voted against them. Trump won the majority of white women. They are making it about men, yet I’m not allowed to point out making it about all men doesn’t make sense and is misandry?
If they didnt want it to be a topic about men, they shouldn’t have made it about all when not all men are guilty, and plenty of women are.
I dont really see it as a contradiction, tbh, as I dont really see sex as the same category of “thing” as something like money, and I think the difference between them is so fundamental as to be meaningful here. I’ll admit, I dont really have personal experience with how this stuff goes down, as I said before, Im asexual myself, but it was my understanding that it wasnt that unusual for a person who was interested in sex to change their mind if something resulted in a change in their mood that killed the vibe, and disagreeable actions by the other person could easily enough be the thing to do that. I’d bring up again though, that these 4b people havent, as far as I can see, said that they would have sex with any man in particular before, just that they for sure dont want to now, so regardless of your feeling on if this is contradictory, the “I suggest that I’m going to have sex with someone” is missing anyway.
FYI, I’ve seen another article where a woman claimed to be dumping her boyfriend. But, it’s important to note, that she was saying that because he is a republican. So that makes more sense to punish a guilty party.
But, either way, good discussion. I feel like I’m repeating myself, and I bet you feel the same way. Appreciate it staying civil and I apologize if I came off as an asshole at anytime. Totally uncalled for with someone who has entertained this discussion as kindly as you have.
honestly, you dont really come off as one to me, so I wouldnt worry, you come off more as someone who might have slightly different definitions or ideas regarding ethics, which can be mutually frustrating to argue around, but not the same as being malicious
This is a different situation though, for a few reasons: first, I actually don’t agree, once you’ve promised the raises, people will reasonably make plans in anticipation of them, so I do think you have an obligation (maybe not a legal one, but that isn’t what we’re talking about) to give them once you’ve made those promises. I don’t recall the women involved in any of this 4b stuff promising a relationship to any man or group of men, it isn’t like they “were going to get it” already.
Second, and perhaps more importantly, the stakes for business and personal relationships are different. We don’t generally require continuing and revokable consent for giving someone money, the state can for example issue someone a monetary fine, and that’s considered an acceptable consequence for many things. If you promise to buy something, and they then come to deliver it and you decide “actually I’ve changed my mind, keep it, I’m not buying it from you anymore”, the other person can in a number of circumstances sue you for breaking your agreement.
However, if the state were to mandate that someone enter into a relationship, or have sex with someone, as a penalty for something, that would be considered a human rights abuse where the monetary fine would not, and if you were to tell someone that you found some type of flower super romantic, and then they came over with those flowers to give, but you then told them you weren’t feeling a connection, no reasonable person would take their side if they tried to sue you to force you into a romantic relationship with them.
To put it a simpler way, if you promise someone a raise, the default state once that promise is made is getting the raise, as in professional matters, honoring promises and agreements is fundamental, revoking it later is therefore taking something from them, because you’re changing that default state to something worse for them. Personal relations do not have the same dynamic. It is well known and understood that people sometimes change their minds on romantic and sexual relationships, or sometimes just aren’t in the mood anymore. Promises don’t carry the same weight, when there exists an absolute right to revoke consent at any point and have things not continue. As such, the default state is “not having a relationship/encounter with a particular person”, right up until it happens. If the person in question never decides to enter into that relationship, because they have decided that they don’t want to even deal with having one at all, they haven’t taken anything from whoever else might have been interested in them, because they haven’t changed that state. There was never a reason for a guy to expect one of these 4b women would date them in the first place, and no reason to expect that they wouldn’t one day leave again if they did.
I was very careful with my words, and very intentionally avoided the word “promise” because I knew it would be spun this way, even though I would argue that even if one promises to do something, they still have the right to say no (i.e. Is a woman who promises to have sex with a man required to have sex with that man? Or does she still maintain the right to change her mind?)
So can we retry again without putting the word “promise” in my mouth? Am I punishing that person by deciding to not give them a raise as a retaliation of the person saying “fuck you” to me? Or is it because the raise was never theirs, it’s impossible for me to punish them by taking it away?
I am saying that if what is to be given and then not is money, then it is punishment, but if it is sex, it is not, because these things are fundamentally different in a way that makes it reasonable to take one back without justification but not the other
I actually just saw this elsewhere in the thread, and it made me think of a good point here that might get you to see my position:
White women voted in favor of Trump. What if I said “That’s it, I’m not having sex with white women at all anymore.” Racist or no?
Honestly, unsure. I dont think that you have a particular obligation to have sex with any sort of person, and I do think that you have an obligation (not necessarily a legal obligation, but a “being a decent person” one) to not be racist. It isnt exactly unusual for a person to prefer their partner belong to a specific category (for example, a gay man is likely to refuse to consider being with a woman, but I dont think they would be a misogynist for that). That being said, there isnt a particular difference between all white women and any other sort of women that would make for much of a reason to do this beyond just hating white women in particular, whereas for a woman, there is a notable difference between a man and, for those who would be attracted to them as well, a woman, as far as partners goes, because with a man, there exists a possibility of pregnancy, which could be dangerous in the current state of the country.
But your whole point relied on the “promise” aspect of it. If there was no promise of it, only the likelihood of it happening, then it falls under the same thing that there is no crime by withholding it. I agree that sex and money are different, as they are legally held to different standards. But that’s a distinction without a meaning in the context of the current discussion.
Let me try it this way.
I suggest that I’m going to have sex with someone. Then, as a form of retaliation, I tell them I’m not going to have sex with them. By your logic, this is not punishment.
I suggest that I’m going to give someone money. Then, as a form of retaliation, I tell them I’m not going to give them that money. By your logic, this is punishment.
This seems blatantly contradictory, even if we maintain that withholding sex is less a punishment. It’s still the same thing - withholding something that would likely have been given had there been no reason to retaliate - the only difference is that the state can’t do anything about the punishment when it comes to sex.
I think I see the problem with your logic here. This whole 4B movement is about women taking back control over their bodies, especially in an upcoming era that’s allowing misogynistic men to be more vocal and accepted in society.
It has nothing to do with punishment. Claiming that women are “retaliating against” or “punishing” men is making the topic about men instead of what it’s really about - women’s rights.
No women is required to date a man, or sleep with a man, or even associate with men. Period. 4B is just a way for women to protect themselves from the incoming onslaught of openly misogynistic men that Trump’s presidency is justifying.
Will women dump their current partners and/or spouses to join this movement? Doubtful, unless there are already some red flags there that they’re just now picking up. But that’s inconsequential because again, this movement isn’t about men.
As men, it’s so easy for us live our lives without fear. Almost no one tries to rape and/or murder us because they thought we were hot. We hardly ever have stalkers. So we don’t realize just how prevalent that scenario is in a woman’s life. Even my own wife, who I always felt was tougher than me, is still terrified to go out by herself at night because she’s already been victim to sexual harassment and assault, multiple times. That’s not something I’ve ever had to deal with in my own life.
And the crazy things is, women really don’t know who they’re getting involved with until it’s too late. Sure, to us men it seems like most men are fine and harmless. But that’s because we’re not the sexual target of most men. A dude who seems like a fine gentleman might have some fucked-up desires or views on women’s autonomy behind closed doors, and they can be really good at pretending to be a decent human being in public. It’s only once a woman is alone behind those closed doors that they might truly learn the awful plans a guy has for her, and at that point, it might be too late to get out without danger to life or limb. Or worse, surviving a situation like that and then having no one believe you in court, so you can’t prevent that person from stalking you.
Preventing that scenario in the first place is the whole point of 4B. Women always live in fear of dating men because it’s always a gamble. Truly kind and respectful men who understand boundaries and never push them are extremely rare. Even “decent” men still think with their dicks from time to time and push boundaries, hoping they can convince their partner to cave and give them what they want. With the surge of misogynists coming out of the woodwork and being openly threatening to women, it risks spreading acceptance of the mindset that women don’t get bodily autonomy around men. So abstaining from men entirely is the safest thing they can do right now. It’s too risky trying to figure out if someone is truly a gentleman or if they’re just putting on a mask to get laid.
Basically, women are saying they’re trying to protect their lives and you’re trying to turn the discussion toward men’s rights instead. The topic isn’t about men. And treating a women’s decision to retain bodily autonomy like it’s a reward or punishment for guys is honestly super misogynistic in itself. No man is entitled to a women’s body; it is not punishment for a woman to decide not to associate with a man.
The article makes it clear that this is retaliation against all men for voting against their rights. Even though there were plenty of men that voted with them, and plenty of women who voted against them. Trump won the majority of white women. They are making it about men, yet I’m not allowed to point out making it about all men doesn’t make sense and is misandry?
If they didnt want it to be a topic about men, they shouldn’t have made it about all when not all men are guilty, and plenty of women are.
I dont really see it as a contradiction, tbh, as I dont really see sex as the same category of “thing” as something like money, and I think the difference between them is so fundamental as to be meaningful here. I’ll admit, I dont really have personal experience with how this stuff goes down, as I said before, Im asexual myself, but it was my understanding that it wasnt that unusual for a person who was interested in sex to change their mind if something resulted in a change in their mood that killed the vibe, and disagreeable actions by the other person could easily enough be the thing to do that. I’d bring up again though, that these 4b people havent, as far as I can see, said that they would have sex with any man in particular before, just that they for sure dont want to now, so regardless of your feeling on if this is contradictory, the “I suggest that I’m going to have sex with someone” is missing anyway.
FYI, I’ve seen another article where a woman claimed to be dumping her boyfriend. But, it’s important to note, that she was saying that because he is a republican. So that makes more sense to punish a guilty party.
But, either way, good discussion. I feel like I’m repeating myself, and I bet you feel the same way. Appreciate it staying civil and I apologize if I came off as an asshole at anytime. Totally uncalled for with someone who has entertained this discussion as kindly as you have.
honestly, you dont really come off as one to me, so I wouldnt worry, you come off more as someone who might have slightly different definitions or ideas regarding ethics, which can be mutually frustrating to argue around, but not the same as being malicious