• 10A@kbin.social
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    1 year ago

    I usually donā€™t lol. Itā€™s very rare for me to get into a conversation as much of a tangled mess as this one.

    Iā€™m flattered. Thank you. I find the conversation enjoyable, though I agree itā€™s a tangled mess. Yet if youā€™d find it prudent to quickly wind it down, I wonā€™t be offended.

    Instigate? No. Enable? Absolutely.

    Well then weā€™re close to splitting hairs. My contention is governments should be too small to enable companies to grow huge. I get that we donā€™t completely see eye-to-eye on this, but Iā€™m not sure itā€™s worth our bickering over the details.

    The mega-corporations are the natural result of capitalism. You canā€™t have one without the other.

    I mentioned the importance of definitions recently. Among people who disagree over capitalism, I find we are often operating on different definitions. What if we just talk about free markets? Thereā€™s nothing about freedom that inherently gives rise to mega-corporations. They didnā€™t even exist until relatively modern times.

    There are also numerous lottery winner stories around. That doesnā€™t mean that everybody should buy lottery tickets as a means to success.

    No kidding. When you hold a race, thereā€™s one winner. You might give out medals for second and third place, but most competitors are losers. And thatā€™s great. Everyone goes home and tries again tomorrow. In the end, some people are never able to win at all, due to lack of drive, technique, or what-have-you, and thatā€™s fine. Life isnā€™t fair, and we wouldnā€™t want it to be. All that matters is that everyoneā€™s able to compete, fair and square.

    Nowadays people are too poor to reasonably afford a home, food, and the basic necessities. The retirement age keeps getting higher. The majority of americans are living paycheck to paycheck. It absolutely has been dead, and for a while.

    Okay, now I really wonder where you live. Is it a West Coast city? What you describe is absolutely not the America I know and love.

    Inheriting wealth is not a means for being successful for the overwhelming majority of americans.

    Yeah, it was a joke. I explicitly said I was joking.

    The success of a business is directly tied to the starting investment.

    No, not usually. Its rate of scale is directly tied to the starting investment. Itā€™s eventual success is only tied to that certain kinds of tech startups, where a ton of work is needed before thereā€™s anything to show for it. For most businesses, success is tied to vision and execution.

    If you donā€™t feel like you are free then what is the point?

    The point is always God. And God, incidentally, is the source of our freedom. People may feel a lack of freedom resulting from estrangement from God. Thatā€™s hardly the fault of corporations (although you could make a good case that any corporation propagating secular culture is indirectly at fault.)

    ā€œJust about any businessā€ does not equate to a livable wage, because just about all businesses have employees who are being paid below a livable wage. And like I said, horizontal mobility is not true mobility.

    Whatā€™s a livable wage? Thatā€™s a mighty subjective phrase. It wasnā€™t long ago that many of us lived in single-room log cabins that we built ourselves, hauled our own water without plumbing, used outhouses, lacked electricity, had a horse and cart instead of a truck, and grew most of our own food. And we were happy. Because we had God, and in the end thatā€™s all weā€™ve ever needed. If youā€™re defining a ā€œlivable wageā€ in terms of anything more than that standard, itā€™s unreasonable.

    • PizzaMan@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      Iā€™m flattered. Thank you. I find the conversation enjoyableā€¦

      I am enjoying it too, and itā€™s quite alright. Iā€™m (so far) able to keep up.

      Well then weā€™re close to splitting hairs.

      Iā€™ll move on then from this part.

      What if we just talk about free markets? Thereā€™s nothing aboutā€¦

      Even the term ā€œfree marketsā€ is incredibly vague. And depending on what you count as ā€œmodern timesā€, even capitalism itself hasnā€™t existed until modern times. So it would kind of not make sense to expect to see mega corps in an economic system that doesnā€™t permit the kind of corps we see today.

      And I hate to repeat myself, but core principle of capitalism is competition, but competitions inherently have winners. And therefore the freedom you speak of inherently gives rise to mega-corps. They buy each other up and kill off competitors until they become mega-corps.

      Any given loser of a competition under capitalism may not immediately die, but each loss forces a company closer and closer to dying.

      everyoneā€™s able to compete, fair and square.

      We unfortunately donā€™t have that though due to inheritance discrepancies, and the burden of entry that corporations put in place through their control of politicians, and through the inherent difficulty of starting a business in an economy as specialized as ours.

      For instance if somebody wanted to start up a new business to compete with google, at a minimum they would need several billion dollars to have a reasonable chance of success. Google has such a huge market share and is so well established that it would take decades for any new company to put an actual dent in googleā€™s market share.

      Is it a West Coast city? What you describe is absolutely not the Americaā€¦

      I actually live on the East coast, in a mid to large sized city, I think mine is 3rd in pop for my state. And as for your second bit here, I havenā€™t made anything up.

      Majority of citizens living paycheck to paycheck

      Housing is increasingly unaffordable with an 18% hike in prices I donā€™t know about you, but my wage has never increased anywhere close to be able to match that. Grocery prices are no different

      The retirement age is going up

      Yeah, it was a joke. I explicitly said I was joking.

      Sorry, I am a very argumentative person if you couldnā€™t tell already lol

      No, not usually. Its rate of scale is directly tied to the starting investment. Itā€™s eventual success is only tied to that certain kinds of tech startups, where a ton of work is needed before thereā€™s anything to show for it. For most businesses, success is tied to vision and execution.

      This is another one of the issues that I wish I had more data on, but unfortunately do not. The closest I was able to find was this:

      https://www.luisazhou.com/blog/startup-failure-statistics/

      And the most frequent cause of failure is lack of cash, which definitely ties into what Iā€™ve been saying.

      People may feel a lack of freedom resulting from estrangement from God.

      So this is similar to the drug addiction/true christian inverse correlation that Iā€™ve been talking about in one of the other threads. I know you donā€™t quite agree with the freedom index Iā€™ve been using, but freedom is not in any way correlated with christianity.

      Whatā€™s a livable wage? Thatā€™s a mighty subjective phrase

      Sure, itā€™s a subjective phrase, and I would personally like to see it added and defined within a new amendment to the constitution, though it probably would never happen

      As for an actual definition, a living wage should be defined as a wage that is sufficient to raise a family on, with adequate housing and food. A living wage should be a basic but decent wage for a family.

      I would also like to point out that you seem to have missed my point about the lack of freedom through vertical mobility.

      And we were happy. Because we had Godā€¦

      I donā€™t think that was the reason, I think the reason was because life was literally simpler and more connected to nature. Also you canā€™t be happy if you canā€™t afford food and shelter.

      anything more than that standard, itā€™s unreasonable

      Iā€™m not saying a livable wage is one in which you will be able to afford anything fancy. It should be a basic wage, but enough so that you can have a family without worry

      • 10A@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        core principle of capitalism is competition, but competitions inherently have winners.

        This is false. A broad class of competitions do not have winners. Only zero-sum games have winners. The economy is not a zero sum game. Every participant adds value.

        For instance if somebody wanted to start up a new business to compete with google, at a minimum they would need several billion dollars to have a reasonable chance of success. Google has such a huge market share and is so well established that it would take decades for any new company to put an actual dent in googleā€™s market share.

        Oh yeah? May I introduce you to Gabriel Weinberg, who started a Google competitor in his basement with a $0 investment, which now earns $25 million annually.

        And the most frequent cause of failure is lack of cash, which definitely ties into what Iā€™ve been saying.

        Itā€™s true, but most successful entrepreneurs learn from previous failures, so many of those failed companies generally result in eventual success.

        Sure, itā€™s a subjective phrase [ā€œlivable wageā€], and I would personally like to see it added and defined within a new amendment to the constitution, though it probably would never happen

        Iā€™ve occasionally thought it would be nice to have a website where anyone could post ā€œbillsā€ they wish were actual laws, and other users could vote on them. Itā€™d be fun. Not that I really think we need any more laws. I just wonder what people would come up with.

        As for an actual definition, a living wage should be defined as a wage that is sufficient to raise a family on, with adequate housing and food. A living wage should be a basic but decent wage for a family.

        Youā€™d struggle to transform that into a legally reliable definition. Does it include iPads for the kids? How about the cost of pet grooming? Vacations for the whole family to the Bahamas every couple of months? Where exactly do you draw the line? Again, it was commonplace for most people to grow their own food in the not too distant past, and we lived simple lives. Isnā€™t a living wage, then, $0?

        I would also like to point out that you seem to have missed my point about the lack of freedom through vertical mobility.

        I didnā€™t miss it. I just skipped the reply. Because I see plenty of evidence that vertical mobility is alive and well. You can deny it all youā€™d like, but there are so many rags-to-riches stories. Maybe you donā€™t hear about them much because theyā€™re mostly Republican.

        Also you canā€™t be happy if you canā€™t afford food and shelter.

        Jesus could.

        • PizzaMan@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          This is false. A broad class of competitions do not have winners. Only zero-sum games have winners. The economy is not a zero sum game. Every participant adds value.

          This varies wildly by industry. Some are zero-sum, some are positive sum. And the age of an industry is usually the defining factor for this, which means most industries turn into zero-sum. Take for instance nuclear fuel pellets. A company who takes part in such an industry is in a zero-sum one because of how limited the demand is for it. And the demand for nuclear fuel pellets doesnā€™t change much at all because of how long it takes to build new reactors, how much political force it takes to build one, etc. A company in such an industry canā€™t expand the total demand much at all, so there is no new value they can add.

          Oh yeah? May I introduce you to Gabriel Weinberg

          An MIT graduate with past business experience and their foot in the door a decade and a half ago isnā€™t really evidence that just anyone can start a new business today to compete with google.

          so many of those failed companies generally result in eventual success.

          Not everybody can afford to have a failed company on their hands.

          I just wonder what people would come up with.

          I think that is a fun idea and I would fully support it. I think youā€™d be surprised at the amount of ā€œsocialistā€ policies that are widely popular. It would be a difficult thing to pull off though given that most people donā€™t really know how to write in leagalise, and how many policies need to be rather complicated or need a high level of understanding to make sense.

          Does it include iPads for the kids? How about the cost of pet grooming? Vacations for the whole family to the Bahamas every couple of months? Where exactly do you draw the line?

          None of that crap.

          Food + Housing + Basic utilities + Transportation + Healthcare (if not already universalized) + Maybe a 5-10% on top for discretionary spending.

          However much each of these end up costing, calculated yearly, added up, should be a reasonable start.

          Again, it was commonplace for most people to grow their own food in the not too distant past, and we lived simple lives. Isnā€™t a living wage, then, $0?

          If everybody owned land, it would be much closer to $0. But you still need to buy/get/pay for fertilizer, water, heating, taxes etc. Those things arenā€™t free. I would love to own my own self-sufficient homestead and have been rather obsessed with videos about it. I wish everybody had the money/land for it, but thatā€™s not how things are.

          And additionally, everybody having their own homestead isnā€™t generally a good thing for efficiency, because economies of scale probably also applies to food production, and therefore it is more efficient to have industrial farming as the main food source.

          Because I see plenty of evidence that vertical mobility is alive and well.

          I canā€™t remember if I posted this link elsewhere, but Iā€™ll do it again just in case:

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index

          We are #27. We could be doing far better.

          Maybe you donā€™t hear about them much because theyā€™re mostly Republican.

          I donā€™t hear about them because I donā€™t really care for lottery winning stories, and avoid the news sources that show them. I want news with more substance than that.

          Jesus could.

          We arenā€™t all Jesus and are therefore subject to the negative effects of poverty.

          • 10A@kbin.social
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            1 year ago

            This varies wildly by industry. Some are zero-sum, some are positive sum. And the age of an industry is usually the defining factor for this, which means most industries turn into zero-sum. Take for instance nuclear fuel pellets. A company who takes part in such an industry is in a zero-sum one because of how limited the demand is for it. And the demand for nuclear fuel pellets doesnā€™t change much at all because of how long it takes to build new reactors, how much political force it takes to build one, etc. A company in such an industry canā€™t expand the total demand much at all, so there is no new value they can add.

            Iā€™m not formally trained in economics or game theory, but this doesnā€™t seem right to me. Anyone employed in the manufacture of nuclear fuel pellets adds value to the economy simply by virtue of showing up for work, and doing whatever it is they do.

            An MIT graduate with past business experience and their foot in the door a decade and a half ago isnā€™t really evidence that just anyone can start a new business today to compete with google.

            Again, entrepreneurs usually need to fail, and build upon those failures, before finding success. Itā€™s normal.

            The fact that heā€™s an MIT grad doesnā€™t mean much. Anyone can start a Google competitor, but the kind of people who do are the same kind of people likely to want to attend MIT.

            Not everybody can afford to have a failed company on their hands.

            Almost everyone can, though not everyone wants to. Itā€™s stressful and time-consuming, though also rewarding in a variety of ways. Even if it fails.

            I think that is a fun idea and I would fully support it. I think youā€™d be surprised at the amount of ā€œsocialistā€ policies that are widely popular. It would be a difficult thing to pull off though given that most people donā€™t really know how to write in leagalise, and how many policies need to be rather complicated or need a high level of understanding to make sense.

            Thanks! I wouldnā€™t be at all surprised by the popularity of socialist policies. Kids are naive. Thereā€™d be a ton of things like ā€œFree ice cream for everyone!ā€ As a serious policy proposal it would be objectionable, but as a playful idea itā€™s fun to imagine. As for legalese and complications, you could make suggestions to improve someone elseā€™s idea.

            Food + Housing + Basic utilities + Transportation + Healthcare (if not already universalized) + Maybe a 5-10% on top for discretionary spending.

            What kind of food? Caviar? What kind of housing? McMansions? What kind of basic utilities? All 800,000 TV channels? What kind of transportation? A Bugatti? What kind of healthcare? Cosmetic surgeries for pets? Itā€™s very hard to draw the line anywhere above $0, which is the technically correct number.

            If everybody owned land, it would be much closer to $0. But you still need to buy/get/pay for fertilizer, water, heating, taxes etc. Those things arenā€™t free. I would love to own my own self-sufficient homestead and have been rather obsessed with videos about it. I wish everybody had the money/land for it, but thatā€™s not how things are.

            You can make your own fertilizer with compost. You can haul your own water up from the stream. You can chop your own wood for heating. Property taxes are a racket. Yes, this presumes everyone owns property of suitable acreage, and with a stream, and thatā€™s unrealistic for everyone. But itā€™s entirely possible for some.

            I love those videos too. I try not to spend much time on YouTube, but on occasion I can easily lose an hour or two to My Self Reliance.

            But to your point about a ā€œliving wageā€, itā€™s going to vary from $0 for some people on up to ā€” I shudder to think what the upper bound of that range is.

            And additionally, everybody having their own homestead isnā€™t generally a good thing for efficiency, because economies of scale probably also applies to food production, and therefore it is more efficient to have industrial farming as the main food source.

            True, but as I mentioned I think economic efficiency is overrated.

            We arenā€™t all Jesus and are therefore subject to the negative effects of poverty.

            We can all strive to be more like Jesus. I know itā€™s not easy, but thereā€™s so much value in trying.

            • PizzaMan@kbin.social
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              1 year ago

              Anyone employed in the manufacture of nuclear fuel pellets adds value to the economy simply by virtue of showing up for work, and doing whatever it is they do.

              But when they do that it doesnā€™t change the demand for nuclear fuel pellets. The demand is largely static, so in order to sell X more pellets, X pellets from other producers must go unsold/not made. Somebody else has to lose, which makes it a zero sum game.

              The fact that heā€™s an MIT grad doesnā€™t mean much.

              It does. Not everybody is an MIT grad or has the skills to be one, and yet you say that just anybody can compete with google. That is a contradiction.

              Almost everyone can

              60% of the country cannot because they are living paycheck to paycheck and cannot afford it.

              I wouldnā€™t be at all surprised by the popularity of socialist policies. Kids are naive.

              Basically every other developed nation seems to think otherwise. For example, we are more or less the only one without universal healthcare, thatā€™s whatā€™s naive.

              What kind of food? Caviar? What kind of housing? McMansions? What kind of basic utilities? All 800,000 TV channels? What kind of transportation? A Bugatti? What kind of healthcare?

              Basic food, not caviar. Basic housing, not mcmansions. Utilities should include heating, cooling, water, electric, literally just the basic necessitites, not cable. Etc.

              Youā€™re splitting hairs at this point.

              Itā€™s very hard to draw the line anywhere above $0, which is the technically correct number.

              Nobody can survive on $0. You need to have food water and shelter.

              Yes, this presumes everyone owns property of suitable acreage, and with a stream, and thatā€™s unrealistic for everyone. But itā€™s entirely possible for some.

              If it is unrealistic for everyone then it isnā€™t a reasonable answer to what the minimum wage should be.

              itā€™s going to vary from $0 for some people on up to ā€” I shudder to think

              If housing in this country wasnā€™t so fucked, it would probably be around $40-50k a year. Nobody is buying caviar and a bugatti with that budget.

              We can all strive to be more like Jesus. I know itā€™s not easy, but thereā€™s so much value in trying.

              Blaming individuals for the failures of a system, and suggesting individuals change to deal with that defect in the system is irrational.

              • 10A@kbin.social
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                1 year ago

                But when they do that it doesnā€™t change the demand for nuclear fuel pellets. The demand is largely static, so in order to sell X more pellets, X pellets from other producers must go unsold/not made. Somebody else has to lose, which makes it a zero sum game.

                The production of anything means itā€™s not zero-sum. Demand can expand and contract over time in any market, but that doesnā€™t matter. If you grow an apple or produce a nuclear fuel pellet, you add value to the economy. Now if there are multiple sellers competing, then itā€™ll drive down the price. But weā€™re not discussing prices here.

                It does. Not everybody is an MIT grad or has the skills to be one, and yet you say that just anybody can compete with google. That is a contradiction.

                Itā€™s a matter of drive. Anyone can try to compete with Google. Someone must be adequately driven, and reasonably intelligent to succeed. But everyone who fails will gain the opportunities to build on those failures and start a more successful venture.

                60% of the country cannot because they are living paycheck to paycheck and cannot afford it.

                Again you can start a business for $0 or next to nothing.

                Basically every other developed nation seems to think otherwise. For example, we are more or less the only one without universal healthcare, thatā€™s whatā€™s naive.

                Why would we Americans care what other countries think? Weā€™re blessed by God to be the greatest country on Earth. People flock from around the world to live here, and they want to so badly that theyā€™re willing to become illegal just to live here. Itā€™s very rare that you can find a principle applicable to other countries which also happens to be applicable to the US. If some other country wants to give out ā€œfreeā€ ice cream to all of its citizens (in exchange, of course, for an obscenely high tax), they can have at it, for all we care.

                literally just the basic necessitites, not cable. Etc.

                My point was that itā€™s subjective what the ā€œnecessitiesā€ are. Some people like me will say it costs $0, while others may insist itā€™s a minimum of $250k. This is complicated by the fact that the dollar is worth dramatically different values in different parts of the country, a fact often ignored. Generally speaking itā€™s worth much less in urban areas.

                Nobody can survive on $0. You need to have food water and shelter.

                Again, grow your own food, haul your own water up from the stream, and build your own shelter out of logs you felled yourself. $0, just like our forefathers.

                If it is unrealistic for everyone then it isnā€™t a reasonable answer to what the minimum wage should be.

                Whoa, I thought we were discussing your notion of a ā€œlivable wageā€ as an abstract concept, but now youā€™re changing it to minimum wage. The concept of a minimum wage is evil for multiple reasons.

                First and foremost, itā€™s a free country, and so weā€™re all allowed to negotiate our own terms of business. If I want to hire someone for $1 a day, and that person agrees to the compensation, itā€™s nobody elseā€™s business. Not yours, not the governmentā€™s, nobodyā€™s.

                Secondly, minimum wages are absolutely disastrous for the economy, and that has been shown time and again. When you run a business, you have a certain budget to spend on compensation. Letā€™s say you want to hire two people to help you, and you can afford a maximum of $100 per day to hire them. That means you can pay them about $6 per hour maximum. Now some busybody steps in, and introduces an oppressive law that you have to pay more than $6. Well that sucks, doesnā€™t it. That means you canā€™t hire two people after all. You can still hire one person up to $12 per day, but youā€™ll have to overwork him to produce the results of two workers. Meanwhile somebody else will be jobless. Now letā€™s say the busybody comes back and says $12 is still too low! Well fine, that means you canā€™t hire anyone at all. So now we have two people who would have had jobs that are now jobless. And it also means youā€™ll need to find a robot thatā€™s cheaper than $100 per day, because if you canā€™t then the government just drove you out of business.

                The concept of minimum wage is un-American and downright evil.

                Blaming individuals for the failures of a system, and suggesting individuals change to deal with that defect in the system is irrational.

                What system? Weā€™re all individuals.

                • PizzaMan@kbin.social
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                  1 year ago

                  The production of anything means itā€™s not zero-sum. Demand can expand and contract over time in any market, but that doesnā€™t matter. If you grow an apple or produce a nuclear fuel pellet, you add value to the economy. Now if there are multiple sellers competing, then itā€™ll drive down the price. But weā€™re not discussing prices here.

                  Value to the economy isnā€™t the issue here though. The topic is about whether or not a company hurts another through competition, and economic value cannot explain or measure the of hurting other companies.

                  If 10,000 fuel pellets are needed for the year, then the market will create and sell roughly 10,000 pellets for the year. If company A sells extra pellets, going from 1k/yr to 2k/yr those sales need to come from somewhere within that 10,000 demand limit. As a result all other companies lose 1k/yr in sales. Maybe the majority of that loss goes to company B or C, or maybe it is spread out. It would only be a positive sum game if the 10,000 pellet demand was able to increase, but it canā€™t due to the restrictive amount of reactors. As a result of all of this, this industry is a zero sum game.

                  Itā€™s a matter of drive.

                  Thatā€™s a part of it, but not the whole.

                  Again you can start a business for $0 or next to nothing.

                  Even if that is true (which it is instead highly misleading), it has nothing to do with the impact of losing a business. One is the cost of startup the other is the cost of loss.

                  Why would we Americans care what other countries think?

                  I didnā€™t say that we should, but you said that kids are naive when it is instead developed nations that are implementing these policies.

                  Weā€™re blessed by God to be the greatest country on Earth.

                  Seems to me that having the highest number of school shootings should instantly disqualify us from such a title.

                  If some other country wants to give out ā€œfreeā€ ice cream to all of its citizens (in exchange, of course, for an obscenely high tax), they can have at it, for all we care.

                  Actually it doesnā€™t quite work out that way. Americans overall spend more on healthcare than most other nations because of how inefficient it is to have insurance companies leeching money away from the american people.

                  Overall countries spend less on healthcare with socialized medicine.

                  My point was that itā€™s subjective what the ā€œnecessitiesā€ are.

                  Only to a degree. We can objectively measure the amount of food and water you need, what kind of shelter is the mimimally viable product while still being healthy, etc.

                  Again, grow your own food, haul your own water up from the stream, and build your own shelter out of logs you felled yourself. $0, just like our forefathers.

                  There is no such thing as a free lunch.

                  Whoa, I thought we were discussing your notion of a ā€œlivable wageā€ as an abstract concept, but now youā€™re changing it to minimum wage.

                  The two are tied together. There should be a minimum wage, and it should be a livable one. Thatā€™s how it was started and it should have stayed.

                  The concept of a minimum wage is evil for multiple reasons.

                  No itā€™s not. Poverty wages are whatā€™s evil and the solution to them is a minimum, livable wage.

                  If I want to hire someone for $1 a day, and that person agrees to the compensation, itā€™s nobody elseā€™s business. Not yours, not the governmentā€™s, nobodyā€™s.

                  It is the business of the government to protect the people, and greedy corporations who pay poverty wages is one such thing that we need protection from.

                  Secondly, minimum wages are absolutely disastrous for the economy, and that has been shown time and again.

                  I disagree that it is disastrous, but even if it was I wouldnā€™t mind much since the economy is the main driving force for pollution.

                  Letā€™s say you want to hire two people to help you, and you can afford a maximum of $100 per day

                  Right there is your lie about it being $100 per day. These companies absolutely have the money to pay a living wage yet they only set the ā€œmaximumā€ they are willing to pay such that it is a poverty wage. These companies rake in billions upon billions of dollars a year in profits. The money is absolutely there they just like to pretend that it isnā€™t.

                  What system? Weā€™re all individuals.

                  The government/capitalism.