Summary
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy asserted that no world leader has the right to negotiate with Russian President Vladimir Putin on behalf of Ukraine.
Speaking to Le Parisien readers, Zelenskyy emphasized that Ukraine alone determines its future and any dialogue with Russia must follow a peace plan based on strength and international support.
He warned against negotiating without clear guarantees of security, highlighting the risks of Putin resuming aggression after a ceasefire.
Zelenskyy called for a strategy ensuring Ukraine’s long-term stability and security, beyond NATO or EU membership timelines.
I am so sad by how Ukraine has been handled.
The West should have been an overwhelming power against Russian imperialism. Ukraine should have been given everything from the beginning, no strings attached, with no self-imposed red lines.
They will swallow another democracy in 10-20 years and the cycle repeats.
Turns out neither the west or russia gives a shit about Ukraine.
they’ll give a shit once all other options have been exhausted, and people realize the next step is actual shooting war, with the bombs falling on Warsaw, Helsinki, Berlin, etc. When they realize they’re on their last legs before the big one, then they’ll take it seriously.
America is a write off, Regulatory captured by the Russian Federation / Russian Mob, Same thing At the very least until 2026 midterms. Europe is still in denial that its time to switch from butter, to guns. Literally
Maybe no civilian targets. But other than that totally agree. We should have put lend lease circa 1940s to shame
This is arguably the whole point of the war.
For Ukraine yes, but as far as Ukraine’s allies go? Only in principle. In reality we help Ukraine because it fucks up Russia, but we don’t give Ukraine the support it really needs or asks for because of [insert litany of excuses for years of delay on new weapons systems].
Proxy wars are nasty business, and Ukraine has precious little say in any of the macro decisions. Russia and Russia’s ennemies collectively hold all the negociation leverage.
Zelenskyy’s only hope is that domestic pressure will force the West to make a genuine effort at preserving as much of Ukraine’s sovereignty as possible, hence this media intervention.And he’s right to be worried, because the situation in Palestine shows, again, that most Western governments only stick to their stated principles when it’s politically convenient and shrug at literal genocide when it’s not. And the Russian propaganda machine is going to work overtime to make us think that any Russian concession to Ukraine would be against European interests.
And what is the western propaganda machine going to say?
I think it’s worse than that. I think the building red tape was intentional to drag out the war as long as possible so Russia as always will continue to dump resources into it until it bankrupts them both militarily and economically.
It’s fucking ridiculous he has to say it out loud
Of course no one can negotiate on behalf of Ukraine. Ukraine is holding on thanks to the support of several parties, and those parties do have the right to continue or end that support depending on the conditions they see. I hope this never happens, but If the US says they’re okay with letting Russia keep the territory its gained as long as hostilities end, then they are within their rights to withhold further arms aid on those conditions. Is that the US negotiating as if they are themselves Ukraine? No. Zelensky understands that he is existentially dependent on others. He’s just reminding them not to abuse that.
Tbh a lot of people in the states are under the impression that we CAN do precisely that, because we absolutely have done in the past. But this is also kind of a whole different ballgame, in a ton of pretty crucial ways.
No world leader = hey, you orange turd, you do NOT speak on our behalf.
But stated politically.
Not only that, but we’re giving fucking BILLIONS of money to Ukraine, we SHOULD have a say so in what happens…
this is why our teachers taught us the difference between can and may (one implies ability, the other permission) because all of south america is looking at this like “fucking right dude”
As an American, I have always found our conduct in South America in particular to be utterly reprehensible.
Central too. Dole & United Fruit, Panama Canal, School of the Americas, just to mention a few lasting atrocities
Thus the ridiculous nature of the statement
Yet, he expects the US to just keep cutting those checks, right?
It is, but that’s what Trump did with Afghanistan.
Unfortunately, Trump will do exactly that regardless.
and by proxy, the majority voters who support him.
America can tell Russia Ukraine formally surrenders, and that the moon is made of cheese, it isnt going to stop anyone from fighting to protect themselves.
The fact that even western countries seem to think that there can be negotiations about the fate of Ukraine and its people, without the Ukrainian voice present, is laughable and directley supports Putin and the Russian Mafia’s fantasy-narrative.
If America and NATO pull back support, Putin will just say “fuck it” and take all of Ukraine and then do whatever he wants. Putin wants every territory that used to be Russia.
even if Nato tucks its tails between its legs and runs away from a winnable confrontation, Russia isn’t taking the whole country, they don’t have the manpower to run an occupation on a territory the size of Texas, with one of the most heavily armed and battle hardened populations on earth.
Russia already signed away any hope of an occupation that didn’t fight them tooth and nail to the death, when they decided to massacre the villages of Bucha , Irpin, and Konotop. The world saw Russia for what it was then, That event “steeled” the resistance. I’m not trying to use hyperbole or sensationalism here, I’m stating that flat out, the Ukrainian people saw that the Russians will murder every single person who doesn’t submit, and they’ve only continued that savage barbarism ever since. Bombing and Murdering people into submission NEVER works. It only gives them a reason to fight.
they weren’t equipped to do an occupation in 2022. they sure as shit are less equipped to do so now. It would be one of the bloodiest insurgencies in history. The Taliban didn’t have Leopards, Javelins, and HIMARs rockets they could put into hiding.
They have no intention of occupation. They will raze every city to the ground to control the pipes and food. They just want the pipes and food, and people who don’t allow that are just going to be ground up like so much meat.
they dont have the resources for that, either.
Putin wants every territory that used to be Russia.
And then when he gets them all, he will want every territory that’s near Russia.
And people will be like “Oh no, why didn’t anyone DO something when we could?”
While I do agree that this is all kind of bullshit and contributes to that issue of supporting Putin and the Russian mafia fantasy, the reality is that the entire Ukrainian war effort is propped up by the resources provided from western countries, which means that they do in fact the ability to continue or end the war pretty unilaterally. We can chest pound all we want, as can Zelenskyy, but he knows this. This war cannot continue without armaments from the US and Western Europe
Western europe has no choice now, they have to arm up and possibly prepare for war with Russia, or resign, and accept Russian Dominion.
The US will do as it wills, they’re going to backslide into fighting with themselves, and evidently with Canada and Mexico at this current rate. Europe will have to take the torch, if for no other reason than that they have no choice. Russia and NATO have been de-facto at war with each other for a while.
I’ve even said that WW3 started years ago but people generally dont agree because they only associate the term WW3, with nuclear exchanges.
theres’ no turning back from this state though. the last chance we had at an “offramp” was in september 6 to 21 of 2022. at that point, the russian army had suffered a major defeat and been pushed out of over half the territory they had conquered. That was Putin and Kremlin’s opportunity to back off before this spiraled totally beyond control, instead, that door was slammed shut forever on the 21st when Russia announced a mobilization.
Now, its not going to stop until either Ukraine signs over part of its territory in exchange for NATO protection, Or the fight goes on until a government collapses. (either way just means more war, east or west) No ceasefire outside of of that deal I mentioned, will actually last, or truthfully stop the hostilities. Russian treaties are just an alternate spelling of Toilet paper
I don’t disagree with any of this, all I’m saying is that Ukraine only has a war so long as its friends are giving them the means with which to wage war.
I completely agree the US would be foolish to stop helping them. We should be ramping it up. Russia is a rogue state, it should be treated like one, with the relatively modest investment we put into it we have seen Russia take crippling blows that will take them easily decades to recover from. This is an opportunity to contain a major world threat and it is not lost on me that Trump and co are determined to squander the opportunity.
Trump, Orban, LePen, Fico, they’re all comlicit in the gang of mafia stooges that are different flavors of the same Mobster Kleptocrat Authoritarian that Putin is the ringmaster of.
Probably already has.
Given the Russian pushes since Trump won the election, I’m guessing the deal is “stop fighting (for a bit), but any land you’re currently on is yours to keep”.
This obviously will not apply to the bits of Russia currently under Ukrainian control.
Europe needs to up it’s munitions manufacture. Can’t rely on the US for that shit any more. They’ve gone mad.
Yep the Trump deal is currently no NATO and full handover of the two provinces plus anything Russia holds. It is absolutely ridiculous.
YES, please stop relying on us, it’s become a very sore spot for a lot of people.
I mean a lot of US folks seem way more smug than actually upset about it. Bringing it up to derail the conversation whenever anyone mentions US imperialism or the one-sidedness of NATO policy, as if the US would ever accept, let alone desire a position as equal among equals.
Just IMO (and a lot of other peoples) military spending is completely out of control and a small fraction of it could pay for healthcare and education for everyone. But I agree the ruling class and associated MIC lobbyists aren’t going to let that happen any time soon, as nice as it would be.
Oh absolutely. Gotta keep the plebs desperate and divided, while billions upon billions disappear into the most toxic and destructive industry there is right alongside fossil fuel corporations.
They managed to keep military spending at an unprecedented level after the fall of the Soviet Union and the end of the cold war, in an amazing feat of governmental capture and exploitation by arms industry lobbyists. But it wasn’t enough, because it never is. Line must go up. The US has been seeking new reasons to funnel even more money their way ever since.
probably already has an
instructionagreement to cease all support
Yet, all other countries are supposed to send unlimited amounts of money and weapons? This is the same bullshit with everyone else… you want all our money, and that’s it.
You’d think this would be a fairly cut and dry issue - the countries helping Ukraine wouldn’t like it either if another country started negotiating terms on their behalf (especially not with a monster like Putin).
Ukraine and its people should be the ones to decide their own fate.
I swear people who think otherwise must’ve read David vs. Goliath and sided with the Goliath.
Hey Goliath was clearly in the right. David brought a gun to a fist fight, bastard never should have been allowed to walk free after that level of cheating.
must’ve read David vs. Goliath and sided with the Goliath.
Bold of you to assume that they can read, or that they have read the Bible.
In my experience not even “devout Christians” do that last one.
easiest way to become an atheist is to read scripture.
Alright, that didn’t work. What’s next?
I dunno, if you believe in a global flood and the tower of babel I’m not sure I can help
Honestly I’m not qualified enough to make educated guesses what type of texts those are. As in, are they written in a form that insinuates to be literal stories. The teachings of those stories are pretty understandable, though.
Some say that the oldest stories are reverse prophecies. And we know how accurate prophecies are considered in general.
The Bible is not a science book, but one of relationship between God and man.
100%. Reading the Bible cover to cover + learning about the history of how Judaism was born out of the polytheistic Yahwism and the resulting merge between Yahweh and the chief Canaanite god El was the way I just kept pulling the thread until it all came apart. The inconsistencies between an omnibenevolent god (El) and violent massacring war god (Yahweh) make a lot more sense once you know they used to be two separate gods.
It has different messages if you hold it upside down.
What about the country sending the most aid to Ukraine, without which Ukraine could not continue the war, being the one at the negotiating table?
Ukraine can 100% continue fighting their invaders without the US. Also, Europe supplies more aid to Ukraine than the US.
https://www.euronews.com/2023/07/28/how-much-has-the-eu-given-to-ukraine-compared-to-the-us
Then why is Ukraine constantly upset US isn’t giving enough aid?
Also, Europe supplies more aid to Ukraine than the US.
You might not realize this, but you’re comparing a continent to a country. US is still “the country sending the most aid to Ukraine,” which I said in my previous comment.
Because the US could do a whole lot more?
Yeah, but according to the other commenter Ukraine “doesn’t need it” and he doesn’t want Ukraine to be reliant on the US.
So… they both do and don’t need aid from the US? Lol.
It’s not that hard. They don’t need aid to continue to fight, but they do need aid to be able to win.
I see what you’re trying to say and I agree but this isn’t the right echo chamber to be talking like that.
No, that country can fuck off back across the ocean, thanks.
And take their aid along with them?
What if this means Ukraine is no longer able to defend itself?
Then they can fuck off across the ocean with their aid. Ukraine isn’t the US’s puppet.
Alright well, I guess it can be Russia’s puppet then.
Uh huh, it would be less a russian puppet than the US negotiating another countries’ fate.
to paraphrase an old Polish quote, (on dealing with Russians) “The Rubble is preferable to Russian Dominion”
Maybe it’s just me, but life in Ukraine didn’t look all that different from life in Russia before the invasion.
Both nations are far behind the civilized world when it comes to social issues. Corruption was cited as a major reason for denying Ukraine entrance into NATO.
While what Zelenskyy says is absolutely true, no county is obligated to help. Is this a good strategy to lend into?
I disagree, unfortunately.
If Ukraine wasn’t so dependent on outside assistance, then he would have a point.
So what you are essentially saying is that in return for “outside assistance” Ukraine has lost it sovereignity.
EDIT: Turns out that the Europeans are dramatically ramping their aid to Ukraine (https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/). So the situation is not as bad as I thought, they may be ok without the US. Keeping the original comment below anyway.
Unfortunately yes in practice. Ukraine can’t sutain their defense from Russia without all the external support they are getting, in particular from the USA (and NATO in general). So in practice, the USA can absolutely negotiate with Russia and then force Ukraine to accept whatever they negotiate. And given that the Americans picked Trump as president this has a good chance of happening.
Not saying this is right or anything like that. It sucks for the Ukranians and of course I would like for this to be different, this should be up to the Ukranians. But this is the reality of the situation, turns out that puting a traitor in charge of the biggest super power in the world has world reaching consequences even if americans didn’t think about that when voting.
You obviously haven’t met anyone in central / eastern europe if you think that’s something that would happen, and that US would get any say in it. They’ll continue on fighting and the US will forever be branded a traitorous country that cannot be trusted for anything.
How can the US be considered a traitorous country when we have no formal treaty with Ukraine. Ukraine isn’t part of NATO and we have no defense pact with them. Aide is assistance and it can be withdrawn at any point for any reason. But let me ask you a question. Would you call the US a traitorous country if we withdrew support for Israel? Is it only traitorous if the US stop supporting the wars you want?
You do, it’s called the budapest memorandum. Read up on it, it’s as bulletproof as NATO is. The US already ignored it a couple of times actually.
I did read up on the Budapest Memorandum and what you stated is FALSE. That document states that Ukraine (along with Belarus and Kazakhstan) are now parties to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons. The US, UK, and Russia have agreed to:
- Respect the signatory’s independence and sovereignty in the existing borders
- Refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of the signatories to the memorandum, and undertake that none of their weapons will ever be used against these countries, except in cases of self-defense
- Refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine, the Republic of Belarus and Kazakhstan of the rights inherent in its sovereignty
- Seek immediate Security Council action to provide assistance to the signatory if they “should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used”
- Not to use nuclear weapons against any non–nuclear-weapon state party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, except in the case of an attack on themselves
- Consult with one another if questions arise regarding those commitments
There is nowhere in this Memorandum that states that the US is obligated to render aid or defend the Ukraine. So when you stated:
The US already ignored it a couple of times actually.
Explain. How did the US ignore the Memorandum (that is not a treaty)? What incidents were they and when did they occur?
No, I get that. And I really wish they make the Russian invaders suffer. The point I’m trying to make is that without the material support they have been receiving from the USA I don’t see a way for Ukraine to keep fighting toe to toe with Russia for long (I hope I’m proven wrong, I really do. But I don’t see how).
Of course this doesn’t mean that Ukranians are going to roll over and accept this without fighting. But if they decide to continue the resistance, the nature of the conflict will change dramatically. I just don’t see how Ukraine can maintain the current stalemate without the huge material support they are receiving today. But if they decide to keep fighting (which I hope they do), this will become an asymetrical conflict like Afghanistan or Vietnam.
Obviously I may be wrong, I hope I’m wrong. But it seems naive to assume nothing is going to change without USA support.
Which still doesn’t mean the US gets to dictate peace deals to Ukraine.
Again, in practice yes. The choice Ukranians will get is accept whatever the US negotiates or continue their resistance without US support. In the second case there is simply no. way they don’t get steam rolled, and then there is just no negotiation, just occupation.
They will fight without the US. Also you are overestimating how much the US provided, compared to Europe.
The defense of Ukraine is in the interest of Europe, not for Europe to take over Ukraine.
Yeah, I hope they can ramp their support to replace what the US will stop contributing. But I don’t see this happening sadly. They have had years to ramp up their support, and as you said, every incentive to do so. So I assume they are already giving close to what they can/want. But I’m a random dude jajajaja, I hope I’m wrong.
With respect, The USA even with its nuclear weapons, can’t Force Ukraine to do anything.
Ukraine is a sovereign nation, and if they want to keep fighting, there isn’t a thing anyone can do about it. Yeah, it will be a lot harder, but Underground resistance and a war of insurgency is something they were prepared for since the first day of the invasion.
the fighting stops when Ukraine says it stops, or when Russia completes a genocide. those are the outcomes.
Yeah. My point was that without US support their resistance radically changes from the stalemate they have now to an occupation and resistance from the Ukranians. And in case of an occupation the resistance groups don’t get a seat at the table so to speak.
But some other commenter has also shown me that the europeans are actually masively ramping up their aid to Ukraine which will more than cover the missing aid from the US. So, assuming they deliver (which I assume they will), the situation is not as bad as I thought. So I stand corrected.
That’s not what I’m saying and I don’t agree with you.
Ukraine could still refuse outside assistance and “maintain its sovereignty” until Russia achieves victory.
Ukraine “losing its sovereignty” would mean they couldn’t even do that.
You are saying that exactly. You are saying “Ukraine doesn’t get to make decisions about itself and the US gets to dictate a peace deal to them because they gave them some aid”.
No, that’s not what I’m saying.
You need to improve your reading comprehension before I can continue this conversation further.
Sorry, gonna ignore you now. Good luck.
“No world leader has a right to negotiate about Ukraine” “I disagree, they got aid, therefore aid giver can negotiate about Ukraine”.
This is exactly what you are saying, so stop gaslighting.
A lot of us were responsible for them handing back their nukes on the principal Russia couldn’t invade. So it’s not a they should fend for themselves we pulled their teeth
A wonderful point to bring up, but unfortunately one that has fallen by the wayside.
Zelensky should be saying this.
It’s terribly ironic to watch people who support US interventionism pretend that Ukraine gets to have any real say in their own destiny at this point. Hundreds of billions of US taxpayer dollars do not go into your coffers without strings.
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I agree. This is one of those times when reality does not align with popular sentiment on the forum.
Because this thread shows the reality of self-important selfish Americans.
I suppose they all just slept through Iraq and Afghanistan, but it’s common historical practice for the US to install puppets and meddle in the destinies of countries we’re supposedly helping.
Did people actually think we were attempting to help Iraq or Afghanistan? I mean I know that was the propaganda but invasion and forceful regime changes are hardly what I would consider aide.
Yes, they did.
Their preferred news networks assured them of that, just like they assure us that we’re helping Ukraine.
The three situations are obviously not the same. We provided weapons to Ukraine…we didn’t invade the country.
we didn’t invade the country
Not yet. I’m hoping Trump will prevent that step in the process.
I have no idea what’s wrong with your brain.
Zelenskyy emphasized that Ukraine alone determines its future and any dialogue with Russia must follow a peace plan based on strength and international support.
Support [outside of the racist countries’ unilateral support for Israel] will always be based on agreements. It doesn’t matter how much Ukraine supports Israel or sends its mercenaries to Gaza. How many countries will help out another for no return?
The fact that you think there is no return in their alliance and trade is mightyfoolish
That’s my point. I give you stuff for nearly free; this is what I want you to do with it.
We havent given anything. And they have given everything. Please tell me what you think that military spending was going to go towards if it wasn’t spent on contracts to U.S. based companies as it has been… Because it can’t, and would not ever be allowed to be used on anything domestic. The less than 90b we have dispersed would disappear into the more than $2.5T in military spending we have had since that time. It cannot be used for helping with food prices, house/rental prices, healthcare reform… anything locally. The fact that it has taken over 2.5+ years and we haven’t dispersed HALF of what the Republican majority congress alloted for it, is frankly ridiculous.
That military funding would have been spent by the military, not giving raises either… Nope. Just vanished into contracts under different names and no one would have given a shit about it because it wasn’t being called out by Russian appeasers on our U.S. news channels.
Never once did that Republican congress call to cut military spending. That’s the only way that money would have went anywhere else.
We havent given anything. And they have given everything.
Who is we and they in this case?
I can see that I took the wrong idea from the article. I thought Zelenskyy was asking for supplies from Germany, France, US, Italy, etc. and then telling them to keep quiet afterwards.
No, he’s saying they can’t speak on Ukraine’s behalf. Countries can withhold aid if they so choose, but they can’t say “Ukraine will surrender these grounds and forgive any reparations and allow you to build a demilitarized zone on their land if you stop where you are at” and expect Ukraine to just do so. It wasn’t a deep statement by him, it was a statement of if you want an agreement with Ukraine, you need to make it with Ukraine, stop trying to discuss deals behind their back and expecting them to honor them.
The right? Maybe not. The ability though? Certainly. Specifically the US absolutely has the power to negotiate an end to the war with Putin.
They could negotiate Russia’s end to the war using their own resources (ie. Mostly the embargos) but anything Ukraine forfeits would have to be negotiated by them. The US can’t just cede another nation’s land.
We effectively can if we threaten to pull all support and harass Ukraine instead…
Not that I want that, or have any say in that as a US citizen…
There’s no threat needed. Zalenskyy already knows he’s losing US support after January.
Unfortunately the US definitely can since it gave a lot of military aid to Ukraine. It can force Ukraine to cede land
The effect would be exactly that. Actually the US ending support for Ukraine would result in not just ceding current borders, but huge additional losses.
This is literally Zalenskyy saying we can’t negotiate for him while knowing that he’s losing US support in January.
He’s doing whatever he can, but ultimately him saying this doesn’t make it so-- no matter how much he (or you) wish it would. Ukraine has been losing ground even with US support and they will only lose more without it. To pretend otherwise is to live in a fantasy. In such a situation the US has at least as much control over how much Ukrainian territory ends up under Russian occupation, as does Ukraine.
You’re confusing losing land because you can’t hold it militarily with negotiating an end to the invasion by ceding land. He’s said that no one will negotiate for Ukraine but Ukraine and since the incoming US administration has already said they’ll be ending support we really don’t have any leverage to encourage them to accept any terms. We can’t threaten to remove support that we’ve already said we’re removing.
I’m saying that there isn’t much of a difference. I agree that Ukraine is fucked and that the time for negotiations is long gone. Why would Russia negotiate now when they expect a clear advantage on the horizon?
I think Zelensky is saying this to look tough and keep the support from Europe coming in at least.
“Mom says it’s my turn with the Donbas.”
In principle I agree, but he doesn’t really have a choice. Other world leaders are providing the funds to continue the war in the first place. If Zelensky does something they don’t like, they can just stop the funding and end the war on Russian terms.
Not sure why he’s downvoted. None of us want it, but he’s right, if Trump is as stupid as we think and actually pulls Ukraine funding, they may have no choice but to negotiate. That would be a bad outcome, but a likely outcome if the US, UK or EU dropped support.
If Ukraine loses we will have war with Russia (now able to use their resources and people) and we will have to send our soldiers.
Military analyst Anders Puck Nielsen, who was spot on with predictions when covering this war says that is we allow cease fire without security guarantees for Ukraine this ultimately will be victory for Russia.
It looks like the vast majority of people in the West don’t really understand what this war is about.
Not in 2014 and not now. I remember how no one understood in my circles what it meant when they booted out putins puppet.
I don’t see how any of this takes away from what I said. Ukraine can’t continue the war themselves, so they have no choice but to do what their benefactors wish.
So is Russia. Russia was unable to help Armenia, what we see in Syria, there are some signs of things breaking up in Libia, Georgia, we will see how Belarusian election will go in January, last time Putin needed to send his military to stop the protests.
The war economy cannot work forever and 2024 was estimated to be its peak for Russia.
The support the West is providing also is negotiable (compared to GDP) and if Russia will win in Ukraine we will have to spend 7 times more while being in actual war according to analysts.
I still don’t see how any of this takes away from my point. Are you just saying that other countries have a vested interest in the continued existence of Ukraine as we know it? Because I know that, that’s why they started funding the war in the first place.
Let’s say that when Trump takes office he negotiates new terms with Putin. Zelensky will agree to those terms because he knows things will only be worse for his country if he continues fighting without US support.
Are you just trying to say that the us or other countries would never threaten to pull support because it would be foolish? If so, then you don’t know how common fools are. What is it you think Trump means when he says he will end the war immediately after taking power?
You need to educate yourself on the geographical foothold that Ukraine is. It is a very important part of land with mobilisation consequences. Without it, at least for now, it leaves very drastic measures as the only option.
it also feeds a billion people
If Ukrainians want to they can make this another Afghanistan, or even worse given their much better infrastructure and manufacturing capacity. Their will to continue fighting is the only variable.
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