Yellow road lines mean something different than white road lines. The hard drives I buy have black and red product names (one is faster than the other). Are these racist or just really convenient ways to differentiate ideas?
There are cultural traditions of using colors as symbols, many of which are harmless – red for anger, blue for sadness, green for envy. Whitelist and blacklist come from the very long-standing theme of using white to represent good and black to represent evil.
Regardless of how you feel about the origin of those themes, it makes sense to start moving away from them now. Whether intentional or not, they can be harmful and aren’t really necessary.
Let’s also start removing phrases with white, yellow and brown as those are used to refer to people’s skin colour as well.
The only reason I would even contemplate not using blacklist or white washing is if an actual person of that skin colour says that it is not okay for them, or there’s an actual consensus among people of that community that it isn’t acceptable.
I can tell you as a person with brown skin, with brownie or whatever used as a derogatory name, almost everyone I know isn’t even concerned with terms like brown out or brown note.
Online outrages or articles aren’t an accurate depiction of reality.
Even more dangerously, shit like this drives outrage and diverts attention from actual, real issues faced by people of different races. Like not having stuff to eat or indoor plumbing or mental health infrastructure or access to health care.
The only people being outraged are people like you when someone is using a different word.
I watched an ig reel that said people react to anything different to them either with fear or judgement. Get over yourself, have some empathy, and move on.
That’s your take reading a post talking explicitly about how a person won’t be outraged about something without actually taking into consideration how the people who the issues is about feel or act?
Maybe you should stop for a moment, think over what you’ve said and read, and consider that many of these discrimated groups can actually think for ourselves and doesn’t need to be told what to be outraged over?
not only that but whitelist-blacklist are just bad names.
even greenlist-redlist would be better (at least while we have light signals at intersections) as green means go red means stop are more universally understood.
but allowlist and blocklist are just plain better, they are self explanatory words. you don’t need to learn what they mean since it’s right there in the name.
whitelist-blacklist are names where you need to learn the meaning of them, sticking to them just because they were used in the past is not the best argument.
Words often work like unique signifiers “symbols”, often by using them you learn them and dont question it. Thats a neutral phenomenon. It has advantages and disadvantages. Mainly, redlist is as disconnected from meaning as much as blacklist is. Requiring the understanding of what a “car” is, and why they cant “wheel their way” thru a cross shaped road becuse of a colored light being there. (Mabe even “across” may make no sense anymore in the future) It sounds really stupid when put like that, but accessability is important.
it isn’t though. you don’t need cars to learn red means stop, we literally had miniature roads, crossing and signs at my pre-school (or whatever it’s called in English, the one you go at age 3 till 6, you start school at 6).
Stop sign is red, pedestrian crossing are just red - stop, green - go. you learn that from a very young age so the association is natural.
Also, just to be clear, I didn’t say redlist is good, just that it’s less stupid than blacklist.
How is blacklist stupid? Green and red aren’t natural, in fact black/white makes more sense because it represents a binary choice (true/false, off/on).
They came from voting in ancient Athens were people had a white ball and a black ball. You put one or the other into a jar, a black was a no vote, white was yes. It has never had anything to do with race. If it bothers you change the words for skin color instead then.
“whitelist-blacklist are names where you need to learn the meaning of them”
You could say this about every word. All language is based on past usage.
Never liked these debates as “making the words comfortable (to myself, others or both)” (from both sides) matters most.
I find that usimg that soundbyte results in people (including me) to not knowing the cultures your refering to and most without being informed assume that their irrelivant (Hence the original reactionary response). Since the debate has in bad faith on nobody’s intent became about “comfort”, ill give that perspective.
Personally, Allowlist and blocklist “just work” (no discomfort). Blacklist and Whitelist are natural feeling and I fully understood the soundbyte reason. For that I can respect depricating the word but banning it (if thats even the goal) is uncomfortable. Ill happly abandon my position if a good argument is given. For now I subconciosly use what word was already there.
Edit: boilerplate is way too harsh, dont like conforntational tone.
Honestly I haven’t heard much rhetoric around anyone banning these terms. But if moving away from them IS good, and the entire catalyst for this conversation is “YouTube chose to use newer, more preferable terms”, then isn’t that a good thing?
Thats what I wanted to communicate, deprication is a fairly normal part of software. Computer interfaces in all their forms are just contracts of expectation, social contracts are simmlar. Deprication is marking an expectation as a mistake or somhow unhelpful.
Where did you find that that is the origin of blacklist and whitelist? The first use of the term blacklist came from a 1630’s play called “The Unnatural Combat” where the people who executed the king were put on a so called “black list” to say that they were suspicious and would be punished, it later came to mean (through use in other plays and texts) people who were to be excluded or had wronged the person, which is why computing blacklisting uses it (i.e. this ip is suspicious or not to be trusted, so add it to the blacklist and don’t let it access anything). Whitelist came around in the 1840’s as an explicit opposite of the term blacklist
It’s not been cancelled.
I’m sure someone raised concerns over racist origins, or that they were uncomfortable with the terms. Or perhaps programmers did it themselves as a part of introspection that came around with GitHub changing from “master branch” to “main branch”.
Which likely lead people to realise that blacklist and whitelist aren’t really descriptive.
Blacklist came from the 1600s, regarding regicide. And the opposite of that is obviously whitelist.
But it doesn’t actually describe what it’s doing, and ultimately it is an idiom.
Removing idioms in coding is generally good practice.
And you can have other things like “FilterList” or “AdminList” or whatever.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen the word “allowlisted”. Did someone forget “whitelisted” is a thing, or is that term finally cancelled?
Whitelist and blacklist were indeed cancelled despite having no racial origin.
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What isn’t racist if even basic colors are racist?
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Yellow road lines mean something different than white road lines. The hard drives I buy have black and red product names (one is faster than the other). Are these racist or just really convenient ways to differentiate ideas?
The good/bad white/black trope has been basic symbolism for a long time.
Might have been a day/night thing but certainly gets racial in today’s 1D cultural filter.
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White = light, day, sun -> great for human daily activities, so it’s positive
Black = darkness, night -> spooky, dangerous and not great for human activities, so it’s negative
That can be universal, not tied to a specific culture.
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BUt wOke!!!
You’re as bad as the people shouting that.
Right because bOtH sIdEs
I mean, you’re certainly proving that there’s stupid people wherever one goes.
There are cultural traditions of using colors as symbols, many of which are harmless – red for anger, blue for sadness, green for envy. Whitelist and blacklist come from the very long-standing theme of using white to represent good and black to represent evil.
Regardless of how you feel about the origin of those themes, it makes sense to start moving away from them now. Whether intentional or not, they can be harmful and aren’t really necessary.
Let’s also start removing phrases with white, yellow and brown as those are used to refer to people’s skin colour as well.
The only reason I would even contemplate not using blacklist or white washing is if an actual person of that skin colour says that it is not okay for them, or there’s an actual consensus among people of that community that it isn’t acceptable.
I can tell you as a person with brown skin, with brownie or whatever used as a derogatory name, almost everyone I know isn’t even concerned with terms like brown out or brown note.
Online outrages or articles aren’t an accurate depiction of reality.
Even more dangerously, shit like this drives outrage and diverts attention from actual, real issues faced by people of different races. Like not having stuff to eat or indoor plumbing or mental health infrastructure or access to health care.
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The only people being outraged are people like you when someone is using a different word.
I watched an ig reel that said people react to anything different to them either with fear or judgement. Get over yourself, have some empathy, and move on.
Oh shit, well if you watched an Instagram reel then it’s probably true.
Note though how I’m here reacting to something different with neither fear nor judgement, just with sarcasm.
That’s your take reading a post talking explicitly about how a person won’t be outraged about something without actually taking into consideration how the people who the issues is about feel or act?
Maybe you should stop for a moment, think over what you’ve said and read, and consider that many of these discrimated groups can actually think for ourselves and doesn’t need to be told what to be outraged over?
Ironically you are being very judgemental
not only that but whitelist-blacklist are just bad names.
even greenlist-redlist would be better (at least while we have light signals at intersections) as green means go red means stop are more universally understood.
but allowlist and blocklist are just plain better, they are self explanatory words. you don’t need to learn what they mean since it’s right there in the name.
whitelist-blacklist are names where you need to learn the meaning of them, sticking to them just because they were used in the past is not the best argument.
I’m fairly certain the term “blacklist” came before traffic lights
Words often work like unique signifiers “symbols”, often by using them you learn them and dont question it. Thats a neutral phenomenon. It has advantages and disadvantages. Mainly, redlist is as disconnected from meaning as much as blacklist is. Requiring the understanding of what a “car” is, and why they cant “wheel their way” thru a cross shaped road becuse of a colored light being there. (Mabe even “across” may make no sense anymore in the future) It sounds really stupid when put like that, but accessability is important.
it isn’t though. you don’t need cars to learn red means stop, we literally had miniature roads, crossing and signs at my pre-school (or whatever it’s called in English, the one you go at age 3 till 6, you start school at 6).
Stop sign is red, pedestrian crossing are just red - stop, green - go. you learn that from a very young age so the association is natural.
Also, just to be clear, I didn’t say redlist is good, just that it’s less stupid than blacklist.
Fair, the idea of “going” will be there and hopefully, likely its symbols will stay relivant.
How is blacklist stupid? Green and red aren’t natural, in fact black/white makes more sense because it represents a binary choice (true/false, off/on).
They came from voting in ancient Athens were people had a white ball and a black ball. You put one or the other into a jar, a black was a no vote, white was yes. It has never had anything to do with race. If it bothers you change the words for skin color instead then.
“whitelist-blacklist are names where you need to learn the meaning of them”
You could say this about every word. All language is based on past usage.
Never liked these debates
as “making the words comfortable (to myself, others or both)” (from both sides) matters most.I find that usimg that soundbyte results in people (including me) to not knowing the cultures your refering to and most without being informed assume that their irrelivant (Hence the original reactionary response). Since the debate has in bad faith on nobody’s intent became about “comfort”, ill give that perspective.
Personally, Allowlist and blocklist “just work” (no discomfort). Blacklist and Whitelist are natural feeling and I fully understood the soundbyte reason. For that I can respect depricating the word but banning it (if thats even the goal) is uncomfortable. Ill happly abandon my position if a good argument is given. For now I subconciosly use what word was already there.
Edit: boilerplate is way too harsh, dont like conforntational tone.
Honestly I haven’t heard much rhetoric around anyone banning these terms. But if moving away from them IS good, and the entire catalyst for this conversation is “YouTube chose to use newer, more preferable terms”, then isn’t that a good thing?
Thats what I wanted to communicate, deprication is a fairly normal part of software. Computer interfaces in all their forms are just contracts of expectation, social contracts are simmlar. Deprication is marking an expectation as a mistake or somhow unhelpful.
They are sort of necessary because people understand what they mean. How about we change the words for skin color instead.
It’s common since quite a few years. And blocklist as counterpart
Blocklist and allowlist are much more intuitive, so if we ignore all the cultural baggage, these changes are rather sensical.
Cultural baggage? Neither term has any roots in racism, blacklist came from a play and whitelist came about as the opposite of blacklist
It comes from the act of voting using a black or white ball. Black was a no vote, white was yes. It goes back to ancient Greece.
Where did you find that that is the origin of blacklist and whitelist? The first use of the term blacklist came from a 1630’s play called “The Unnatural Combat” where the people who executed the king were put on a so called “black list” to say that they were suspicious and would be punished, it later came to mean (through use in other plays and texts) people who were to be excluded or had wronged the person, which is why computing blacklisting uses it (i.e. this ip is suspicious or not to be trusted, so add it to the blacklist and don’t let it access anything). Whitelist came around in the 1840’s as an explicit opposite of the term blacklist
What do you think the terms were based on? You think they pulled “blacklist” out of thin air?
As of the perception of words has no relevance
I’ve never heard it perceived as that
Your experience is the only one – fair
you snowflake
Not everything is related to skin color Jesus. The world isn’t so black and white.
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It’s not been cancelled.
I’m sure someone raised concerns over racist origins, or that they were uncomfortable with the terms. Or perhaps programmers did it themselves as a part of introspection that came around with GitHub changing from “master branch” to “main branch”.
Which likely lead people to realise that blacklist and whitelist aren’t really descriptive.
Blacklist came from the 1600s, regarding regicide. And the opposite of that is obviously whitelist.
But it doesn’t actually describe what it’s doing, and ultimately it is an idiom.
Removing idioms in coding is generally good practice.
And you can have other things like “FilterList” or “AdminList” or whatever.
You are predictably behind the curve