I don’t see a problem with it as long as no trafficking is involved.
I agree with this. I have found that most women do not however. It has been a great trouble for me, to talk about, when trying to find a new partner.
This is pretty surprising to me. In my experience (as a woman myself) women are much more likely than men to be vocally supportive of treating sex work like any other service and of breaking the taboo of offering or receiving those services.
I actually can’t think of any woman in my life who would judge someone negatively for seeing a sex worker (assuming full consent from all involved parties including partners). Most men I know would similarly have no issue with it, but a handful would read it as not being able to get laid and see that as something negative.
My social circle isn’t representative of the general population, but I’m still surprised to hear your experience is dramatically different. I wonder if the way the conversations are going make the issue more about consent, cheating, or other non-sex-work-specific ethical questions.
I have sometimes seen a phenomenon where people are very supportive of things until they are affected directly, and then they are supportive of those things in other people’s lives.
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Ok but also, I’ve dated sex workers and that’s why I’m a bit yeeshy around people who hire them until I know they’re cool. I’ve heard stories.
Like there’s absolutely nothing wrong with hiring a sex worker. There are plenty of good reasons to do so. There are things where it’s better to hire a sex worker than to ask for from a hookup. And despite all of that, it’s not a trait that leaves one in the best company. Honestly, the best comparison I can think of is being a lawyer.
People supporting sex work being legal and the non-acceptance of people using sex workers in illegal/non consensual situations are congruous positions.
I think more women would be understanding to men paying for sex than men would be to women paying for it.
Do you make use of the sex workers while in the relationship with the new partner?
Absolutely not
Then why speak of it?
I don’t talk about previous sexual partners with new ones.
For the purpose of disclosure. I just cant live with myself if I do not tell prospective partners when they ask. I know there is a difference between avoidance and lying, however, I value honesty. Not implying that you are not or should thinknas I do
Last year I shit myself while trying to open my door and get to the bathroom.
I dropped my keys while I was trying to unlock the door and ended up with shit in my shoes that I had to throw away.
I never bring that up on dates.
This story made my panties wet.
What an amecdote. Thank you for lightening my mind lol
That’s a third date story
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You have an over-sharing problem.
I can’t agree. I think people should have a friendship as strong as their romance.
Is it typical to give a whole run-down of your sexual history when dating? Like, I’ve mentioned previous encounters or exes when it comes up, but rarely near the beginning of the dating process. In my experience people tend to not have those discussions. Not because it’s bad but because it doesn’t matter. When I meet a new woman and start seeing them, I don’t need to hear about or care about their past relationships unless it’s something they feel they want to share for whatever reason.
It sounds like you don’t think sex work is immoral, so I wouldn’t bring it up unless it’s something that would actually affect your current relationship. If sex is casual enough to commodify then it’s not something that would be brought up when getting to know someone. Do you also give them a run-down of every meal you’ve ever bought at restaurants?
The fact that you need to “disclose” this makes it sound like you yourself see an issue with it
OP’s out there on first dates asking if they have a problem with him doing it…
I can’t imagine women are bringing it up
Not necessarily first dates. I just answer truthfully when the topic comes up. I don’t want to have it be a problem further down the line
I just answer truthfully when the topic comes up
It’s just really hard to believe a women asks if you’ve had sex with a sex worker…
Most people don’t ask for numbers, let alone details.
I think the issue is the portrayal of the types of men who use such services in media. They’re usually not good people.
What incredible acting, I felt like I was there
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/-2LUssy5lwA
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
They don’t want to date a man who is regularly going to sex workers?
@Driftking@lemmy.ml What have you been telling these women?
Yeah I’m not sure why or how this would be a topic of conversation when, yknow, dating women.
Then they are not worth your time
You should definitely bring this up as often as possible. Enjoying coerced intimacy is totally well adjusted behavior.
Why do you hate sex workers?
Yeah it should be legalized.
What people do with their bodies is their own choice.
So long as everyone involved consents sans coercion, I do not see why anyone else should care/be involved
This is pretty much my view on people’s sexuality generally.
I don’t care who’s doing what to who as long as everyone involved is a consenting adult.
Does getting paid still counts as “sans coercion” though ?
There’s a huge difference between picking up a streetwalker, going to a legal brothel, or answering a personal ad in places like Canada where it’s a grey area if it’s legal
Like, off the street there’s probably some coercion somewhere, legal brothel it’s less likely they’re forced to do it but it might still be trafficking but there’s likely at least some form of oversight, and personal ads are a total crapshoot. It might be someone who’s selective and just making some money, it might be someone that has to accept every offer.
When things arent 100% legal, some shady is statistically just going to happen. You can’t regulate an illegal business.
Tbh I know little about the topic and was under the (maybe wrong) impression than many sex workers are poor people that need to do it to survive. But then I guess the issue I was pointing is more about our capitalist society than about sex work
The thing is we can’t know because it’s illegal in most places.
There’s some who only take clients they’re attracted to anyways and manage to pull in a lot of money.
There’s some that if they dont make X amount of money a night, they’ll get beat.
Anyone that claims to know how much are in each group are pulling numbers out of their ass. And people that act like they’re all the same are usually using the services of people who are forced into it.
Not all sex work is equal ethically.
But generally speaking, the less legal it is, the worse they’re treated. Because they have no legal recourse if they’re mistreated
Also like, people work dangerous jobs where they DIE because they need to money to pay rent and buy food, so only caring about sex workers is kind of fucked up.
Sex work is the most dangerous job in the world. They have a higher number of victims of violence and PTSD than any other profession. For PTSD only war veterans have similar results.
Pretty sure truck driver is the most dangerous job in the world.
In Germany the majority (about 95 %) of sex workers are people from the poorest countries of EU. Because of the high demand and the amount of money you can make with brothels there is also an increase in trafficking from countries outside of the EU.
Regulated does not mean people weren’t pressured into it. Telling a young single mother from a poor country that most of her problems will vanish if she just works as a sex worker for a few years in Germany is legal and regulated. It’s not trafficking and not really coercion either. She will get a social security number, pay taxes, get health care, all that stuff she perhaps won’t get at home.
What do you think she will tell you if you ask her whether she is doing the job freely and if she wants to keep the job? Of course she will say yes.
But is it really just like any other job? The fact that sex workers in countries where it is regulated still suffer disproportionately from mental health problems, alcohol and drug abuse tells a different story.
Do you really feel like you’re coercing a waitress when you tip?
This is an interesting analogy. I do get the sense that many waitresses and waiters hate their job, and do it because of lack of other options. However I do feel that by using their services and paying them, I’m helping them. They’ve made this choice, under a certain amount of coercion from the circumstances and system (which most of us suffer from to some degree, working because we have to), but my helping them get paid is helping them. I do find it important to be nice to them and treat them as real people, even moreso than people with whom my interaction is on a more equal footing.
However there is nuance here in matters of degree. I think I can tell when a place treats their staff well or shittily–it tends to slow in their attitude. I prefer not to patronize a place when I get that shitty vibe.
It’s interesting to think about how this translates to sex work. If I used such services, I would want to feel like the person I paid somewhat enjoyed her job.
Does waiting tables and having sex with strangers feel similar to you? These jobs aren’t comparable from a psychological standpoint. I never heard that it’s common for waiters to be substance users or have PTSD.
Weirdly enough, restaurant workers are some of the highest substance users group. A Google search on this subject is quite surprising.
It’s not even close to sex workers which have the highest amount of substance abuse among all professions.
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I suppose it depends on how desperate someone is for money. I am in an industry where client relationships are important, but more money will not make my hard no a yes
Indeed, as I clarified under another comment
Tbh I know little about the topic and was under the (maybe wrong) impression than many sex workers are poor people that need to do it to survive. But then I guess the issue I was pointing is more about our capitalist society than about sex work
That I cannot say, and seeing as in the vast majority of the US it is illegal, all we have is supposition unfortunately
Labor as coerced selling of one’s body is an interesting view.
That’s literally all work in capitalism. You use your time and body to do things for other people in exchange for money. We’re all prostitutes, only a few of us have sex for it.
Negotiating a price is not itself coercion.
All work is exloitation, sexual work is sexual exploitation. Its not exactly consent if the other option is being homeless or starving.
That’s trie if any work, as you’re saying. But then why would it be more of a problem with sex work than with any other work?
Do you feel like any other work is the same as sex work? For example does flippping burgers the same to you as having to have sex with a stranger?
What it is to me is different from what it should be. Why should it be different? You sell your body ability to provide a service.
The difference lies in the intimacy associated with sex. But then how different is it from therapy? It is physical intimacy. It is the only difference.
There is no more strain on your body than with many physical work, less actually than construction or many other work. There is no more strain on psychology than care works like therapy or nurses. Quite less actually.
The actual problem of sex work is exploitation: people are forced into this work, and this is extremely bad. This breaks a fundamental contract of liberalism. But it wouldn’t be as bad if it was legal and monitored.
Thus, the problem is Christian puritanism. Sex is bad in itself in this philosophy.
Ask yourself this question : why is a woman earning money on onlyfan a bad thing, but a man earning money surveying a beach in swimsuit is perfectly fine? Actually a woman can do this too!
It’s not a matter of how much skin you show or even how intimate you can be, otherwise massage or therapy wouldn’t be good. It is a matter of sex and how to control it.
Religion/Bible thumper made it more of a problem.
I want to live in a world where no one feels they are struggling so much that they need to turn to selling their body for sex.
However, I don’t live in that world, so in the meantime I support sex workers, because sex work is work.
The men who use their services? That’s a tougher nut to crack.
My partners brother is heavily mentally disabled and pushing 40, he’s still very much like a child, but obviously does not have a child’s libido. This man has never had an intimate interaction with a woman. He might never get the chance, he struggles to talk to women, even women who have similar issues as himself. I think sex workers could be beneficial for him, in the right context, for giving him intimacy he may otherwise never experience. I don’t think he would ever think/know to pursue a sex worker, but I could be wrong. There’s also the issue of his emotions began to be involved, which leads me to…
I’d be more worried about him finding OnlyFans and blowing through all his disability money each month instead of realizing he’s not actually getting much out of such a “relationship.” He’s the kind of person who a parasocial relationship like that could really damage their already troubling mental health. The same thing could happen with a prostitute, but they are less likely to hang the relationships on fake social cues that say they care about you. He’s not quite advanced enough to understand that these women are being paid to pretend to care, I don’t think.
Also, there’s other types of men who use these services I’m sure aren’t a net positive. There are plenty of conservative men who already view a standard relationship as a sexual transaction (I take care of girl = she give me sex), so they’re not far from viewing everything women with transactional already. Secondly, not only do the already view it as transactional, many of these conservative men turn to prostitutes because average women simply don’t want to date them because of their horrible, outdated views on women’s bodily autonomy. They are already angsty and moody because of women not wanting to date them, and they often are willing to take out their frustrations on the woman they paid to serve them. I see these men as not respecting and hurting the women they turn to for sex work.
Anyway, just some quick thoughts on the subject.
I want to live in a world where no one feels they are struggling so much that they need to turn to selling their body for sex.
You see, that’s the problem. You are implicitly devaluing sex work compared to other professions. You’re not acknowledging that some people actually want to, and choose to do sex work. There’s nothing wrong whatsoever with someone choosing prostitution, stripping, escort, etc.
Could you say your same statement about being a lawyer? A teacher? An engineer?
“I want to live in a world where no one feels they are struggling so much that they need to turn to being an engineer.”
You see how weird that sounds? So why can you say it about sex work? Do you see how derisive you’re being toward it as a profession? Funny that you say you’re supportive while implying that what they’re doing is a last resort…🤦♂️
I get you point but I genuinely want to live in a world where people are not forced to turn to engineering.
I chose engineering, and when I started I loved it, but eventually I ended up working in places I didn’t like, on jobs that made me feel dirty, but now I don’t know any other way to maintain the lifestyle I’m accustomed to.
Have you thought about stripping?
Made you feel dirty physically or mentally?
Why not both?
I think the error is on your side. Nothing that OC said denies that some sex workers like and choose what they do. These exist.
But it’s doubtable that these are in majority, and nothing what you say acknowledges that many many sex workers don’t have much choice.
Check yourself dude. The mere fact that you say “it’s doubtable these are in the majority” shows EXACTLY what you think of sex work. Your attitude of “ugh that’s so pitiful, no one would do that willingly, they must be forced into it” is fucking offensive.
Millions of people feel stuck in their jobs and “don’t feel like they have much choice.” Walmart, coffee shops, data entry, whatever. But if it’s sex work, all of a sudden it’s something to be ashamed of?
Yeah, sure there’s trafficking out there, and that is horrible. But don’t conflate the two. Don’t just assume that someone doing sex work is being trafficked. Just like you don’t constantly assume someone doing any other job must also be a trafficked slave or something. Get it?
Pretty sure I currently have the Philippines and Thailand more in mind than you.
Written like a defensive john. Sorry she didnt enjoy fucking you bro
I wonder if there’s a third type too where a person has an extremely busy life and doesn’t have time or possibly doesn’t want an intimate relationship.
I don’t know if it’s “right” that this type of person pays for sex. I think it makes sense as long as they respect the person that they’re paying and understand this person does not ‘belong’ to them - but this last point appears to be a problem for people whenever they pay anyone for anything.
There’s plenty of other types, those were just the ones I had time to write about before I pop off to work for the day.
Your comment led me towards an amusing thought: in the Harry Potter universe, goblins sell things to wizards for the duration of the wizard’s life, but then they expect it to go back to the goblins because ownership works differently for them vs wizards. Wizards don’t always/usually understand or respect that. So… If I ever was in the position to open a brothel, perhaps I’d name it “The Goblin’s Den.” I… Don’t know what kind of clientele that would attract though.
Weird cross over but okay :D
I wonder if there’s a third type too where a person has an extremely busy life and doesn’t have time or possibly doesn’t want an intimate relationship.
That would be me. I work 60 hours a week most weeks. I just want regular, casual, no strings attached sex.
Unfortunately I can’t actually afford sex workers, but some day…
Thank you for putting what’s pretty much exactly my view on the topic into words.
I would like to add though that I expect of men using sex services to thoroughly check and make sure that the women whose service they use provide this service by their own choice, which means they are in no way forced, not by pimps but also not by financial hardship.
With this constraint I’m afraid that many if not most existing sex services are actually probably not ethical to use.
My opinion on them is the same as whatever opinion the sex workers have on them
If you support the sex workers, this is the main answer. If you like them but not their clients how is that supposed to work economically?
It’s pretty straight forward, really.
hexbear user being utterly predictable
Can’t make a proper argument- check
Must rely on memes and gifs to communicate- check
On the rare occasion they actually put their big boy pants on and write some text it’s super offensive/racist/bigoted- check
Hexbear user confirmed.
Yeah this. And until I find out, unfortunately my mind goes to the stories I’ve heard. I know that’s uncharitable in the same way that it’d be uncharitable to do the same thing but replace sex work with grocery work or any other mundane customer service job. But yeah that’s where my mind goes
If the sex worker is consenting without duress and is being treated well (I recognize that’s a big ‘if’) then I’m fine with it. I have no inherent objections to sex work itself so it would feel like a double standard to judge the people who use it.
Unfortunately the moral waters are muddied by the rampant trafficking, drug abuse, etc. within the industry.
And traffic and abuse is ramped up by moral muddiness. It’s a vicious cycle
We pay for everything else. A professional is a professional. Mechanic or prostitute. It’s a mutual transaction. Regulate it and make sure it’s safe. When ai porn blows up there going to be a lot more sex workers.
When ai porn blows up there going to be a lot more sex workers.
How?
I’m assuming more adults wanting the real thing
The only job left will be fucking each other, oh no what a dystopia.
I dont care
So long as they treat the women properly, and said women is not being forced to work as a sex worker.
I have very mixed feelings.
On the one hand, I don’t think that there’s anything inherently immoral about sex work.
On the other hand, a large amount of sex work is not voluntary and consensual.
There are a few sites where (legitimate) sex workers can advertise. Prices vary considerably, but you’ll typically see prices starting at $400+ for “full service”. They typically have specific limits laid out, what things they do and don’t do, and usually require some kind of screening for their own safety. If you go to sites where clients can review sex workers, you can find listings for $50-$100 for full-service sex work with “new girls”, frequently Asian. These women–most of the people exchanging sex for money are women—in those listings do not screen clients, do not have pre-stated limits, frequently do not require the use of barriers, and always work for an “agency”. It is clear to me that these are not women that are doing sex work consensually. People that frequent these sex workers are complicit in their abuse. (Willing sex workers can and do work through agencies; that makes their client screening less onerous for them. But they still have clear limits, and not rock-bottom prices.)
Given how many women, esp. at the lower end of the pricing spectrum, aren’t doing sex work consensually, I would not have a good opinion of a person that chooses to use them. I could not accept someone that knew that they were trafficked and didn’t care, or chose to ignore the probability that they were doing sex work involuntarily.
I would have no opinion either way about someone that chooses to use a professional domme; that, at least, is a segment of the market that’s unlikely to involved trafficked victims.
I don’t see why it’s any of my business. It’s like asking what I think of men who go to the gym, or like lettuce on their sandwiches. It’s just another normal thing people do in life.
Sex is a very normal everyday thing that many people need to feel fulfilled, and the sex industry is great to fill that need. People like to bone. It’s none of my business, and because I’m not a Catholic from the 1800s, I don’t think it’s deeply wrong or sinful.
The only issue is that it’s not regulated enough, there aren’t enough protections in place for the workers or the customers.
I find it weird that someone would want to have sex with someone who obviously does it only for money.
Now that you mention it, isn’t it odd that it feels weird? I wonder exactly where the line starts to come into focus between something as innocuous as paying for a meal and something as taboo as paying for sex? Obviously that’s a question of culture, but it’s entertaining to think about nonetheless…
Like, there’s definitely something kind of unusual about this specific taboo. Speaking from the perspective of modern western culture, I’d say that the following things which share some characteristics with prostitution are all individually qualified as being relatively socially acceptable:
- Paying for therapy (i.e.: buying the service of social comfort)
- Paying for a massage (i.e.: buying the service of physical comfort)
- Having a one night stand (i.e.: receiving the service of sexual comfort without buying it)
- Buying a sex toy (i.e.: buying sexual comfort without involving a service worker)
I posit that there’s something uniquely specific about the direct intersection of service, money, and sexual pleasure which makes prostitution uniquely uncomfortable for (modern western) people to think about. I might be overthinking it, though. Perhaps these three things are already uncomfortable topics to really think about so we naturally want to resist the idea of combining them?
Some people view sex as a means of expressing affection and connection, rather than as a means of having an orgasm. They would have no issue buying a sex toy to get their physical needs met, however hiring a person wouldn’t make sense to them because of the lack of emotional connection.
And some people don’t view sex that way. And sex work isn’t just about having an orgasm. That’s what masturbation is for. My understanding is that people who frequent sex workers do it for the human connection. That doesn’t mean an emotional connection, but human touch and physical intimacy are important for all human’s mental health. I’ve heard stories from sex workers where the customer doesn’t even end up wanting sex but to talk a bit and have someone hold them for a bit. Usually they prefer the respectful ones who just want sex with a human and leave though.
Yes, this is what I was getting at.
Rest assured, it is not necessary to explain the concept to me. I just like exploring the underlying why that leads to the how. My intention was to provide food for thought, not provoke the internet into explaining for me the joys of sharing romantic sex.
I think the reason is that for some people sex is not the same as any other activity you can do with your body and I think it’s not just culture but actually a neurobiological reaction.
It’s probably just odd because we know awfully little about how our brains, our hormones and whatever feelings are work. And sex is really one thing that taps into all three of these areas we don’t understand yet.
To give you another example, we can’t really explain why some types of torture are so devastating to us.
We value interactions differently because we intuitively want to be careful with things that could potentially influence us in major ways. Personally I believe buying sex feels so uncomfortable for some people because for them bonding and intimacy is connected with it. That clashes with buying it from a stranger. Also it seems kinda pointless or deranged then. Like buying a birthday party or a Christmas Eve with strangers.
Well sure, we can take it as a given that sex basically exists in its own special category. Biologically speaking, it’s an impulse older than almost any other. I think that’s self-evident enough without any need to tap into mysticism.
(Content warning: sexual violence in human history, abstract)
With that being said, it could also be argued that r-word is also deeply ingrained within human biology, particularly in the context of warfare. Even if we discount the (extensive) evidence within the anthropological record demonstrating this, there are clues baked into human physiology which seem to indicate that the human species itself is uniquely adapted to perpetrating r-word when compared amongst the other hominid species.
(Content warning concluded)
I apologize for bringing such a nasty subject up at all, but it’s useful to weigh such things when talking about the deep biological roots of sex and how it makes us think/feel. I personally believe that it’s too limiting to describe sex as an implicitly pure thing which only becomes wrong when certain impure people corrupt it. Please don’t take that as a doomer statement! I personally see it as a triumpth that, through culture, we can collectively transform an act as ambiguous as sex into an idealized and pure expression of interpersonal love. I nevertheless do still try to be mindful of the capacity for sex to exist outside of the box we’ve crafted for it, though.
Do you not have a concept of personal space? Having a person you don’t care for literally inside your body is rather different than serving them a meal. Do you think that forcing someone to give you a haircut is the same as forcing them to have sex?
Personally i don’t understand how anyone can enjoy having sex with someone who isn’t into it. The whole idea is repulsive and i think anyone who enjoys that must be very lacking in empathy.
I can tell I’ve struck a nerve here. I apologize for the harm that has caused. I am sorry.
And, yes. I do have a concept of personal space. I do think that forced sex is worse than a forced haircut. I understand the point you’re getting at, but I would appreciate it if you didn’t try to make it in such a forceful way next time. Thank you for responding.
I have considered it for exactly that reason. My family is healthy and happy except for that my wife completely lost her sex drive after childbirth and finds sex not just to be a chore but to be completely revolting.
I don’t want to tear my family apart just to get laid. I’m not interested in loving some other woman or having an affair, I love my wife and my daughter and I have no need for another relationship.
However it’s been years of celibacy and what I do need is sex, but without romance and with a professional who as they say “you don’t pay them for the sex, you pay them to leave afterwards”.
I’ve known sex workers who do it because they love sex, and if they’re gonna be out there having a lot of sex they might as well also get loads of money from it.
To be fair, about half of them then got into drugs and started doing it to keep up their drug habit…before the drugs they were very choosy about their clients and only picked the ones they liked, but afterwards they needed more money so they dropped standards.
But the other half were just getting paid to go on dates and have sex, which is what they’d be doing anyway.
I don’t hire sex workers because I don’t have the money for it lol. But if I did, I’d want one like that. I have no idea how rare it is.
Logically, if it’s two consenting adults, why not?
Personally, fucking ew.
Overall, if you are single, you do you! If you have someone waiting at home, go fuckin sort yourself, never be a cheater.
Let alone cheating, you don’t want to catch something and carry it home. So yeah, cheating sucks.
What is your opinion on women that make use of sex worker services?
Shouldn’t you start a new thread for this?
I’d probably be called a sexist pig tho.
I love my customers
I know you probably mean prostitutes or “escorts”, but aren’t porn actors also sex workers? I watch porn all the time, so do a lot of people. I feel sorry for the sad sacks who aren’t “allowed” to look at porn because their significant other is so goddamn insecure, the idea of their partner having their own private thoughts scares the shit out of them.
Safe. Sane. Consensual. Pretty simple. If money changes hands, whatever. Don’t be a dick and no means no. In fact, until there is a yes, you cannot assume there is consent. I digress…
