- cross-posted to:
- linux@lemmy.ml
- linux@programming.dev
- cross-posted to:
- linux@lemmy.ml
- linux@programming.dev
Hellwig is the maintainer of the DMA subsystem. Hellwig previously blocked rust bindings for DMA code, which in part resulted in Hector Martin from stepping down as a kernel maintainer and eventually Asahi Linux as a whole.
Don’t know about anyone else, but I’m very pleased to see Linus talking like this. I wish more of my relationships both professional and personal could operate with this level of straightforwardness.
Have… Had you not heard any Linus rant before this? This is pretty tame.
Precisely my point.
If anyone spoke to me like that at work, I would quit. Which is exactly what has happened.
Nobody in that thread quit because of the way Linus talked. If was because of the way they were talking to each other.
They quit because other people spoke to them that way under Linus’ absent leadership.
Fair
If you were being an asshole, and someone called you out on it, and you quit over that, I can’t imagine you’d be missed.
You don’t think anyone will miss one of the top Linux maintainers over the last 10 years? You don’t think anyone will miss the founder and primary developer of the only Linux distribution intended to work on silicon Macs? You don’t think anyone would miss the founder and primary maintainer of the Linux kernel?
Really? I feel the opposite. I thought Linus was very clear in calling out this maintainer’s bs, and I’d think it’s fair if I’m in the receiving end. I did something unprofessional: essentially tried sabotaging others while hiding behind a lie, that I “don’t care” about something while actually hating it.
Getting called out is not the end of a work relationship. We’re all flawed, and we might not notice our own problems and think we’re doing fine, and such callouts are good for our own development, both as a person and professionally.
But if you’re thin-skinned and think you’re better than others and so you won’t take criticisms from others, welp, can’t help ya there. I’d suggest therapy though.
Yes. A hostile work environment is its own prison, even if the hostility seems warranted by you. You are asking people to choose their own emotional/mental well-being or their livelihood. That is not a choice anyone should have to make.
Also bear in mind that “thin skin“ isn’t some objective metric. Some people probably would think you are thin skinned and wouldn’t make it in their “honest” workplace.
I feel like you’re building the argument in a way that’s convenient for yourself there.
A non-hostile work environment doesn’t mean you won’t get reprimanded, especially when you go out of your way to sabotage somebody. Someone has to step in to stop the madness, and if all they do is to say stop (which I heard Linus did earlier), that’s not actually going to stop the conflict because nobody understands or acknowledges where the root of the conflict comes from.
And Linus is not even hostile here imo. There’s a lot of “you” language, but none of it was personal, and he’s not doing his old thing where he tells others to go end themselves. He seemed analytical and dissected the root of the issue so that people understand where things are actually coming from.
And no, I am by no means asking people to make that choice. I am simply suggesting that if all you do is surround yourselves with people who will never get mad at you for doing the wrong things, and that you will never accept anyone reprimanding you, then you’ve made a bad choice in life.
And yeah, “thin skinned” is subjective, and I’m not saying that it’s wrong to be thin-skinned. Some people have less capacity to take criticisms for various reasons, and that’s fine. If your colleagues don’t know how to mince their words (and let’s assume the intentions are good here), and you don’t have the right mental capacity to slice through those words yourself, then you can’t work effectively together. If the people you have to work closely with are all such clumsy people (which isn’t necessarily a bad thing, just unrefined), then there’s a problem, and it’s probably best that you don’t work with them or there at all, cause it’d only lead to chaos. If this is where you think I’m asking people to make the choice between livelihood and mental well-being, first off, I think this is an exaggeration because there’s almost always someplace else you can work at, and if you can’t, then there’s a bigger problem, and two, well, I think you’re idealizing the workplace a little too much. Sure, in an ideal world where people can immediately assume a professional and cordial personality at work, then you shouldn’t have to make the choice between livelihood and mental well-being. But people are imperfect. There are hostile work environments. There are non-hostile work environments with some hostile people. You can enforce policies that dictate how people should conduct themselves, but you can’t stop it from happening, and you can’t stop them fast enough.
So people do have to make that choice, even if they don’t want to, and even if we think it shouldn’t be a choice and that people should just have both.
I could say the same thing. Several of the following quotes are complete strawmen/misrepresentations of my argument. In fact I’m struggling to figure out how you possibly extrapolated all of what I’m about to quote from what I wrote.
Never said that.
Never advocated for that or talked about it in any way.
I agree. Solve conflict at the root. Where did I say otherwise?
Ehhh that’s pretty unprofessional and heated. I agree with him, but it is.
No one, including me, said that.
Then what are we discussing here? That is exactly what I am saying.
If being “thin-skinned” means not allowing people to disrespect you unnecessarily based on a misunderstanding, then sure.