Men have a significant advantage over women when it comes to strenght and speed and in most (but not all) cases this applies to trans women as well.
Nothing about your comments indicates a willingness to change your mind. However, your statement above is the first concrete statement of the thread, so it seems like the onus would fall on you to support the claim, rather than /u/astro_city@fedio.io to refute it. If you make factual claims without evidence, nobody’s especially obligated to provide evidence to tell you that your made-up facts are wrong.
The results of female national elite athletes even indicate that the strength level attainable by extremely high training will rarely surpass the 50th percentile of untrained or not specifically trained men.
They called my claim that men have a significant advantage over women when it comes to strenght a made-up fact so I backed it up with evidence as requested.
They called my claim that men have a significant advantage over women when it comes to strenght a made-up fact so I backed it up with evidence as requested.
Hmm, on re-reading I can see that as being part of what was asked. However, you wrote this,
This isn’t about not wanting trans people in the sports and you know it. It’s about the unfair advantage they have over biological women.
Men have a significant advantage over women when it comes to strenght and speed and in most (but not all) cases this applies to trans women as well.
So I think the real ask is for evidence that post-transition trans women are stronger than cis women. To reiterate, I think the points now requiring evidence are these statements (edited by me for clarity):
It’s about the unfair advantage … trans people in the sports … have over biological women.
… trans women … have a significant advantage over … cis … women when it comes to strength and speed and in most (but not all) cases
I do note that you state that this is not true in all cases btw, so also interested in hearing what you think the exception is (that is, what are those cases where trans women, particularly trans women in sports, do not have an unfair or significant advantage over cis women when it comes to strength and speed).
also interested in hearing what you think the exception is
It would be a statistical miracle if every single trans woman was stronger than every biological woman. I’m confident in claiming that most are but I’d never claim that there’s no exceptions. Depends on many things such as biological diversity, how long ago they transitioned and what drugs they’re taking just to name a few.
A women’s competition is held and a trans woman wins. What’s the problem?
It’s not but once we start seeing a trend of the winners and record holders being trans more often than not it starts becoming a problem. It’s not fair for the biological women.
The best data is from military recruits, and there are a couple of recent studies, one published in 2020 and one in 2023. They looked at cis men, cis women, trans man and trans women. How many steps you can do in a minute, how many push ups you can do in a minute, and how fast you can run 1.5 miles. And what they found in that study was that trans women remained faster for up to two years after the initiation of gender affirming hormone therapy. At four years, trans women continued to do more sit ups and push ups.
also interested in hearing what you think the exception is
It would be a statistical miracle if every single trans woman was stronger than every biological woman.
but I’d never claim that there’s no exceptions
Ok, that’s fair.
I’m confident in claiming that most are
Right, but that’s what the other commenters were waiting for supporting research on, I believe.
The best data is from military recruits, and there are a couple of recent studies, one published in 2020 and one in 2023. They looked at cis men, cis women, trans man and trans women. How many steps you can do in a minute, how many push ups you can do in a minute, and how fast you can run 1.5 miles. And what they found in that study was that trans women remained faster for up to two years after the initiation of gender affirming hormone therapy. At four years, trans women continued to do more sit ups and push ups.
This is what happens when you google something to support your made-up fact, rather than base your argument on the research.
Your claim was that this applies to most, but not all trans women. Your link provides literally zero support of that.
This bad faith, scientifically illiterate shit is why people are generally inclined to dismiss you as spewing ignorant bar talk and move on without trying to change your mind. Your stance wasn’t set based on current, relevant research and therefore isn’t likely to be changed by it.
If you want to get pedantic, you have to figure out how to be accurate. Breaking a sentence into bullet points doesn’t make it separate claims. The word “and” means that for the sentence to be true, all of the components must be. You made one claim, with multiple aspects and evidence that does not support 2/3 of them at all.
I think the other user had it right, so I’m going to steal this one: stay ignorant friendo
The best data is from military recruits, and there are a couple of recent studies, one published in 2020 and one in 2023. They looked at cis men, cis women, trans man and trans women. How many steps you can do in a minute, how many push ups you can do in a minute, and how fast you can run 1.5 miles. And what they found in that study was that trans women remained faster for up to two years after the initiation of gender affirming hormone therapy. At four years, trans women continued to do more sit ups and push ups.
Nothing about your comments indicates a willingness to change your mind. However, your statement above is the first concrete statement of the thread, so it seems like the onus would fall on you to support the claim, rather than /u/astro_city@fedio.io to refute it. If you make factual claims without evidence, nobody’s especially obligated to provide evidence to tell you that your made-up facts are wrong.
Hand-grip strength of young men, women and highly trained female athletes
As the research doesn’t cover trans athletes, it’s of limited relevance. The onus has not yet been met.
They called my claim that men have a significant advantage over women when it comes to strenght a made-up fact so I backed it up with evidence as requested.
Hmm, on re-reading I can see that as being part of what was asked. However, you wrote this,
So I think the real ask is for evidence that post-transition trans women are stronger than cis women. To reiterate, I think the points now requiring evidence are these statements (edited by me for clarity):
I do note that you state that this is not true in all cases btw, so also interested in hearing what you think the exception is (that is, what are those cases where trans women, particularly trans women in sports, do not have an unfair or significant advantage over cis women when it comes to strength and speed).
It would be a statistical miracle if every single trans woman was stronger than every biological woman. I’m confident in claiming that most are but I’d never claim that there’s no exceptions. Depends on many things such as biological diversity, how long ago they transitioned and what drugs they’re taking just to name a few.
People have jumped all over you on the science, of transition and the physical difference between cis and trans women.
But I want to ask a different question.
A women’s competition is held and a trans woman wins. What’s the problem?
A woman won a woman’s competition. Why is this a problem?
It’s not but once we start seeing a trend of the winners and record holders being trans more often than not it starts becoming a problem. It’s not fair for the biological women.
Source
If it’s not a problem why are we talking about it?
What is the problem if trans women take all the records?
The competitions were open to women. All women. What is the problem if women win?
Ok, that’s fair.
Right, but that’s what the other commenters were waiting for supporting research on, I believe.
Source
This is what happens when you google something to support your made-up fact, rather than base your argument on the research.
Your claim was that this applies to most, but not all trans women. Your link provides literally zero support of that.
This bad faith, scientifically illiterate shit is why people are generally inclined to dismiss you as spewing ignorant bar talk and move on without trying to change your mind. Your stance wasn’t set based on current, relevant research and therefore isn’t likely to be changed by it.
I made three claims and you called it all made-up facts.
If you want to get pedantic, you have to figure out how to be accurate. Breaking a sentence into bullet points doesn’t make it separate claims. The word “and” means that for the sentence to be true, all of the components must be. You made one claim, with multiple aspects and evidence that does not support 2/3 of them at all.
I think the other user had it right, so I’m going to steal this one: stay ignorant friendo
Source