I met people on both sides that had either of those attitudes.
The “I’m always right because I have a PHD” is not uncommon, even on fields not covered by their education.
At the same time, I’ve met many religious people (Muslims, Hindus, Christians) that for them religion was a private, personal aspect that helped them deal with their lives.
As a kind of a routine, something done time and time again enough to clear up their minds from stress and give them an anchor when lost.
I’m not religious, but I believe in freedom and the pursuit of happiness, and I support anyone as long as it doesn’t interfere with other’s.
I agree, but I also fear religious people. Religion has time and time again interfered with people’s autonomy.
It still does to this day. Women in Oman, for example need a man (even if it is their son) to approve of her surgery. A woman needed surgery, but had no male relatives closeby to approve it for her. It was an emergency. Thankfully it was approved, but required a lawyer.
Christianity isn’t any better where I live.
Religion is fine on a personal level, but dangerous for everyone on a larger scale.
The problem with religion is it primes people for believing things just based on a trusted authority saying so. There’s no evidence in support of the existence of any supernatural entities whatsoever, and there’s no evidence to support the existence of a life after death, but people believe it anyway and religion holds their “faith” to be a virtue in and of itself. You could argue that that isn’t harmful by itself, but consider that many religious people believe things that the evidence of their own eyes proves impossible, and that any idea is fair game when you treat faith as a virtue. It doesn’t matter if people today only believed the “good” parts of religion, eventually someone will corrupt their blind faith and convince them of whatever they want, like that being gay is a sin worthy of death, that trans people are evil and shouldn’t be allowed to exist, that your pastor is totally a great guy and you should donate money to the church and totally trust him alone with your kids. The dangers of religion are in teaching people to stop thinking for themselves.
Religion really isn’t about knowledge and Science really isn’t about personal moral and motivation, which is probably why (from what I’ve observed from the handful of Christian Scientists I’ve known), it only ever works well when they’re kept apart and neither is used in the domain of the other - it’s perfectly possible to want to “discover the wonders of God’s creation” and “be a good, moral person” at the same time as practicing Science as long as one does not believe that the words of the Bible are literal and actual “knowledge” in the Scientific sense.
Those many “private, personal” benign religious people form a strong foundation upon which the crazies, cults, and conmen build their structures.
In my experience, these benign people are one tragedy away from metastasizing into the malignant religious type.
I have cousins who were benign-religious for most of their life, but after a death in the family they started following a new sect of christianity. Their children have never seen a doctor, nor a vaccine.
I agree people are entitled to their personal freedoms, but we would be much better off as a society if we could educate our way out of the cancer that is religion.
In my experience, these benign people are one tragedy away from metastasizing into the malignant religious type.
This kind of thinking and language is also used by a variety of “Anti-Theists” talking about the “Woke mind virus” and working together with current US fascism.
Talking about people as “diseases” is a pretty good indicator of Fascist ideology and you might be more entangled by it than you think.
I think my post makes it quite clear that I was not referring to people as diseases, I specifically said that religion is the disease. The people are victims to the disease.
And if it isn’t also obvious, I do consider myself an anti-theist. The overall effect of religion on society is negative, and we would be better off without religion. I don’t see what this has to do with “woke mind virus” nonsense.
I strongly recommend you to see the video i have linked. The maker is a former anti-theist who has learned how hateful and discriminatory this kind of thinking was and how prominent proponents of this thinking went on to apply the same attacks on “wokeness” and are now part of the Trump side of US politics.
If you cannot think of religious people as normal people, whose characters and life situations cover the entire spectrum of human life, that is problematic. Referring to people as “victims” because they dont share the same convictions as you do, is marginalizing them and a convienent escape as you don’t have to intellectually engage with their position. In such “Anti-Theists” fall into the same pitfalls they accuse religious people off, by not only declaring their own convictions as the ultimate truth, but marginalizing everyone who does not share the same convictions.
And that is where “Anti-Theism” leads to “Anti-Wokeness” for many prominent proponents of it. Please watch the video, as it explains that much better and in detail.
Alright I watched your video. I agree it is a problem that a small subsect of secular humanism has been entangled with “anti-wokeness”, Trumpism, and fascism. Many of the figureheads of the atheist movement in the past two decades have become part of the alt-right pipeline, and that is a tragedy.
But as your video readily admits, the vast majority of atheists, anti-theists, and secular humanists are on the left. I was involved with the Freedom from Religion Foundation for a decade or so, and my personal experience was that nearly everyone there was on the left(even in a heavily rightwing state).
I think you are falling into the pitfall, judging a large and diverse group for the misdeeds of a small subsect of that group.
As for “not thinking of religious people as people”, if you would personally know me you would understand this is a laughable notion. I am surrounded by religion and religious people everyday, their views and beliefs are thrust upon me often, and I always respond with respect, very rarely will I offer a counter argument.
But I am still of the conviction that religious people are victim to religion. I believe my cousins, who do not allow their children to see any doctor, are victims of religion. I think any rational person would agree that their young child, recently ill for a month but not allowed to see a doctor, is a victim of religion.
And as for marginalization, I do believe religion should be marginalized. Just like I believe the alt-right and fascist movements should be marginalized. Good things are good, and bad things are bad, and I am convinced religion is bad. But let’s be honest, the power dynamics are heavily weighted on the other side. Religious people are marginalizing atheists, fascists are marginalizing leftists.
As for “intellectually engaging with their position”, I would love to. My experience has been that very few religious people are willing to intellectually engage in the subject. Despite this, I have had many intellectual and respectful discussions on religion, and I appreciate that you are giving me one more.
But if you are so concerned about anti-theism leading to Trumpism, then you should be much more concerned about religion leading people to Trumpism. That correlation is much stronger.
I met people on both sides that had either of those attitudes.
The “I’m always right because I have a PHD” is not uncommon, even on fields not covered by their education. At the same time, I’ve met many religious people (Muslims, Hindus, Christians) that for them religion was a private, personal aspect that helped them deal with their lives. As a kind of a routine, something done time and time again enough to clear up their minds from stress and give them an anchor when lost.
I’m not religious, but I believe in freedom and the pursuit of happiness, and I support anyone as long as it doesn’t interfere with other’s.
My God, a reasonable person talking about religion on lemmy
I agree, but I also fear religious people. Religion has time and time again interfered with people’s autonomy.
It still does to this day. Women in Oman, for example need a man (even if it is their son) to approve of her surgery. A woman needed surgery, but had no male relatives closeby to approve it for her. It was an emergency. Thankfully it was approved, but required a lawyer.
Christianity isn’t any better where I live.
Religion is fine on a personal level, but dangerous for everyone on a larger scale.
You seem to be conflating religion and culture with regards to Oman.
The problem with religion is it primes people for believing things just based on a trusted authority saying so. There’s no evidence in support of the existence of any supernatural entities whatsoever, and there’s no evidence to support the existence of a life after death, but people believe it anyway and religion holds their “faith” to be a virtue in and of itself. You could argue that that isn’t harmful by itself, but consider that many religious people believe things that the evidence of their own eyes proves impossible, and that any idea is fair game when you treat faith as a virtue. It doesn’t matter if people today only believed the “good” parts of religion, eventually someone will corrupt their blind faith and convince them of whatever they want, like that being gay is a sin worthy of death, that trans people are evil and shouldn’t be allowed to exist, that your pastor is totally a great guy and you should donate money to the church and totally trust him alone with your kids. The dangers of religion are in teaching people to stop thinking for themselves.
I see somebody downvoted you already, but I completely agree with you 💯
Religion really isn’t about knowledge and Science really isn’t about personal moral and motivation, which is probably why (from what I’ve observed from the handful of Christian Scientists I’ve known), it only ever works well when they’re kept apart and neither is used in the domain of the other - it’s perfectly possible to want to “discover the wonders of God’s creation” and “be a good, moral person” at the same time as practicing Science as long as one does not believe that the words of the Bible are literal and actual “knowledge” in the Scientific sense.
Those many “private, personal” benign religious people form a strong foundation upon which the crazies, cults, and conmen build their structures.
In my experience, these benign people are one tragedy away from metastasizing into the malignant religious type.
I have cousins who were benign-religious for most of their life, but after a death in the family they started following a new sect of christianity. Their children have never seen a doctor, nor a vaccine.
I agree people are entitled to their personal freedoms, but we would be much better off as a society if we could educate our way out of the cancer that is religion.
This kind of thinking and language is also used by a variety of “Anti-Theists” talking about the “Woke mind virus” and working together with current US fascism.
Talking about people as “diseases” is a pretty good indicator of Fascist ideology and you might be more entangled by it than you think.
I think my post makes it quite clear that I was not referring to people as diseases, I specifically said that religion is the disease. The people are victims to the disease.
And if it isn’t also obvious, I do consider myself an anti-theist. The overall effect of religion on society is negative, and we would be better off without religion. I don’t see what this has to do with “woke mind virus” nonsense.
Absolutely! Very well put. These people are victims and are being taken advantage of for the sake of power and control.
I strongly recommend you to see the video i have linked. The maker is a former anti-theist who has learned how hateful and discriminatory this kind of thinking was and how prominent proponents of this thinking went on to apply the same attacks on “wokeness” and are now part of the Trump side of US politics.
If you cannot think of religious people as normal people, whose characters and life situations cover the entire spectrum of human life, that is problematic. Referring to people as “victims” because they dont share the same convictions as you do, is marginalizing them and a convienent escape as you don’t have to intellectually engage with their position. In such “Anti-Theists” fall into the same pitfalls they accuse religious people off, by not only declaring their own convictions as the ultimate truth, but marginalizing everyone who does not share the same convictions.
And that is where “Anti-Theism” leads to “Anti-Wokeness” for many prominent proponents of it. Please watch the video, as it explains that much better and in detail.
Alright I watched your video. I agree it is a problem that a small subsect of secular humanism has been entangled with “anti-wokeness”, Trumpism, and fascism. Many of the figureheads of the atheist movement in the past two decades have become part of the alt-right pipeline, and that is a tragedy.
But as your video readily admits, the vast majority of atheists, anti-theists, and secular humanists are on the left. I was involved with the Freedom from Religion Foundation for a decade or so, and my personal experience was that nearly everyone there was on the left(even in a heavily rightwing state).
I think you are falling into the pitfall, judging a large and diverse group for the misdeeds of a small subsect of that group.
As for “not thinking of religious people as people”, if you would personally know me you would understand this is a laughable notion. I am surrounded by religion and religious people everyday, their views and beliefs are thrust upon me often, and I always respond with respect, very rarely will I offer a counter argument.
But I am still of the conviction that religious people are victim to religion. I believe my cousins, who do not allow their children to see any doctor, are victims of religion. I think any rational person would agree that their young child, recently ill for a month but not allowed to see a doctor, is a victim of religion.
And as for marginalization, I do believe religion should be marginalized. Just like I believe the alt-right and fascist movements should be marginalized. Good things are good, and bad things are bad, and I am convinced religion is bad. But let’s be honest, the power dynamics are heavily weighted on the other side. Religious people are marginalizing atheists, fascists are marginalizing leftists.
As for “intellectually engaging with their position”, I would love to. My experience has been that very few religious people are willing to intellectually engage in the subject. Despite this, I have had many intellectual and respectful discussions on religion, and I appreciate that you are giving me one more.
But if you are so concerned about anti-theism leading to Trumpism, then you should be much more concerned about religion leading people to Trumpism. That correlation is much stronger.
The ratios are the opposite though.