What percentage of people are born with both, or none or indistinguishable sexual organs? I’m not entirely against TBD for the record but I think your argument is disingenuous, not every person who is trans is one the incredibly rare circumstances where this issue arises.
Some people live as one gender for a long time before transitioning and while I’m happy for them to do as they please and live a safe and happy life I don’t think they should change their birth cert. Official documents are used for am enormous amount of statistics and changing them serves only to confuse the data and misrepresent facts. All that is needed is an amendment document that shows that while their birth cert says male they are now female. That’s it
You are going through ridiculous leaps and lengths to avoid the obvious simple solution that already exists today. And for what? A strange need for a document to be immutable? Perfection of historical information?
Those seem like tenuous reasons do something that actively takes options from people who value those options.
A strange need for a document to be immutable? Perfection of historical information?
Is it so strange that someone expects an official document about someone’s birth to accurately represent that birth?
But is that what we want? Fuck it, let’s change the past and pretend it’s something that’s a little more pleasant. It’s “for a good reason”. To make someone feel better. Get rid of anything that might cause discomfort while you’re at it. Let’s get rid of slavery - might make people feel uncomfortable. Seems you agree more with DeSantis’s fascist revisionism than you might initially expect.
People deserve to be treated with dignity and respect no matter who they are. But we cannot start playing make believe to protect feelings. A rock is a rock is a rock. If you were born a male then you were born a male end of story.
You can transition after, and people should show you respect and kindness. But forever and for the rest of history you would have been born a male.
It makes me feel so frustrated how this ideology has impregnated the left. We are losing the war against fascism and here we are focusing on absolute absurdities.
Are you claiming birth certificates are not generally accurate? I haven’t personally examined a large number of them - just close family members & girlfriends. Every one I’ve looked at has been accurate.
You can’t be so concerned about accuracy that changing 1 in a thousand is a problem for you, and then use the word ‘generally’. You want ridiculously high precision, or you wouldn’t care if a tiny percentage went back to correct theirs.
The birth certificate doesn’t typically get changed when you change your name. But yeah, I would disagree with both things equally. I don’t think we should change birth certificate at all. I actually think it’s a dangerous thing to start doing.
In most jurisdictions, the birth certificate generally remains unchanged to reflect the original information at the time of birth. Some places allow for an amended birth certificate, which will show the new name but also indicate that the name has been legally changed. I’m fine with changing the sex as long as there is an asterisk next to it.
I don’t see how this is similar to mail in ballots. The attempts by the GOP to lower access to voting is directly unconstitutional and a deliberate attempt at voter suppression. They have said as much - for example for voter id laws a NC congressman GOP member openly said it’s because implementing that law would reduce black voting by like 2% or something from their research. That would help Republicans win elections.
And sure, I’ll give you that they are doing this as a deliberate way to rile up the anti-trans base. However, just because someone does something for wrong reason doesn’t mean what he does is wrong.
What I mean by dangerous is the arbitrary alteration of historical documents. We rely on our documents to be able to accurately represent the past. If we change these, we are essentially “deleting” the past. I mentioned before, DeSantis’s revisionism. What if we got rid of all mentions of slavery in our historical record? No future historian could ever study slavery. It would essentially not have happened.
Now, the reason for doing it may be noble. You want a trans person to feel better about the transition, so you change the name on the birth certificate. But I think that this does not warrant the alteration of historical records. Put a little amendment star on the birth certificate and attach a new document if it needs to be done. This is what many places do. But do not change the original document in such a way that makes it seem they were born a sex they were not.
In 2019 the Kansas courts essentially passed a ruling that made it so you could change the birth certificate. Not an amendment. Just totally alter the birth certificate to change both the name and the sex - as if it were the name and sex you were born with. Which, as we discussed, is absurd.
Now it’s impossible legally speaking because they passed that new law, SB 180 that defines what a man or a woman is. And in that new definition, you are either male at birth, female at birth, or have some sort of sex “disorder/difference”. You can’t alter that sex in the legal sense.
An individual’s “sex” means such individual’s biological sex, either male or female, at birth;
a “female” is an individual whose biological reproductive system is developed to produce ova, and a “male” is an individual whose biological reproductive system is developed to fertilize the ova of a female;
an individual born with a medically verifiable diagnosis of “disorder/differences in sex development” shall be provided legal protections and accommodations afforded under the Americans with disabilities act and applicable Kansas statutes.
Which to be honest, I don’t really see what the big deal is. Who cares what a piece of paper says? What is more important is your sense of self-identity and how people treat you. At the end of the day, If you are born a male and you undergo a transition… take estrogen, grow breasts, look feminine, etc. If I see you walking down the street, I will assume you are a female and I will treat you as such. I think everyone has the right to respect, dignity, and the pursuit of happiness.
However, we cannot start playing make-believe. A male->female trans person will always have XY chromosomes. If they transitioned after puberty, they will always have the male sexualization period that allows for muscle growth, adam’s apple, etc. No amount of wishing or contemporary medicine can reverse these things.
So why not just keep the legal documents accurate and just treat them how they would like to be treated? Why the need to try and deny reality? This concerted effort to try and say 2 + 2 = 5? I really don’t understand how everyone is OK with this. I guess this is what ideology is.
You’re off by about 1000-3500 according to the study i just found. “The estimated frequency of genital ambiguity is reported to be in the range of 1:2000-1:4500”
If the document was the summary of the person then fine change it. If the only people that were looking to change it were those affected by genital ambiguity mentioned then fine change it. But it isn’t the case, not everyone who is trans is someone like that, and they don’t have to be. They were born as one gender and they want to live as another, that’s fine but don’t change records to suit that. You don’t move house and change your birth location.
Ok? I’m not saying not to do it for them, it is a legitimate case in that it couldn’t be determined at birth or the person, as a result of the ambiguousness, can choose to be either and the initial document was wrong.
I’m saying that if I want to transition tomorrow I shouldn’t change my cert, I’ve lived my life as I am now and while I want to change going forward I can’t and shouldn’t change the past.
If you read my other comments you’d see that my view is exactly the same for changing your name.
As for women changing theirs, there is an additional document created and registered to reflect that change so you can trace the birth name to the marriage name and onward from there.
It is literally changing our recording of history, it doesn’t matter right now but in the future we may rely on accurate records for something and having a practice wherein you can change the details recorded for a past event is not going to help that
What percentage of people are born with both, or none or indistinguishable sexual organs? I’m not entirely against TBD for the record but I think your argument is disingenuous, not every person who is trans is one the incredibly rare circumstances where this issue arises.
Some people live as one gender for a long time before transitioning and while I’m happy for them to do as they please and live a safe and happy life I don’t think they should change their birth cert. Official documents are used for am enormous amount of statistics and changing them serves only to confuse the data and misrepresent facts. All that is needed is an amendment document that shows that while their birth cert says male they are now female. That’s it
Around 1in 1,000.
You are going through ridiculous leaps and lengths to avoid the obvious simple solution that already exists today. And for what? A strange need for a document to be immutable? Perfection of historical information?
Those seem like tenuous reasons do something that actively takes options from people who value those options.
Is it so strange that someone expects an official document about someone’s birth to accurately represent that birth?
But is that what we want? Fuck it, let’s change the past and pretend it’s something that’s a little more pleasant. It’s “for a good reason”. To make someone feel better. Get rid of anything that might cause discomfort while you’re at it. Let’s get rid of slavery - might make people feel uncomfortable. Seems you agree more with DeSantis’s fascist revisionism than you might initially expect.
People deserve to be treated with dignity and respect no matter who they are. But we cannot start playing make believe to protect feelings. A rock is a rock is a rock. If you were born a male then you were born a male end of story.
You can transition after, and people should show you respect and kindness. But forever and for the rest of history you would have been born a male.
It makes me feel so frustrated how this ideology has impregnated the left. We are losing the war against fascism and here we are focusing on absolute absurdities.
Yes this is strange to want accuracy where there is none.
Are you claiming birth certificates are not generally accurate? I haven’t personally examined a large number of them - just close family members & girlfriends. Every one I’ve looked at has been accurate.
You can’t be so concerned about accuracy that changing 1 in a thousand is a problem for you, and then use the word ‘generally’. You want ridiculously high precision, or you wouldn’t care if a tiny percentage went back to correct theirs.
deleted by creator
The birth certificate doesn’t typically get changed when you change your name. But yeah, I would disagree with both things equally. I don’t think we should change birth certificate at all. I actually think it’s a dangerous thing to start doing.
deleted by creator
In most jurisdictions, the birth certificate generally remains unchanged to reflect the original information at the time of birth. Some places allow for an amended birth certificate, which will show the new name but also indicate that the name has been legally changed. I’m fine with changing the sex as long as there is an asterisk next to it.
I don’t see how this is similar to mail in ballots. The attempts by the GOP to lower access to voting is directly unconstitutional and a deliberate attempt at voter suppression. They have said as much - for example for voter id laws a NC congressman GOP member openly said it’s because implementing that law would reduce black voting by like 2% or something from their research. That would help Republicans win elections.
And sure, I’ll give you that they are doing this as a deliberate way to rile up the anti-trans base. However, just because someone does something for wrong reason doesn’t mean what he does is wrong.
What I mean by dangerous is the arbitrary alteration of historical documents. We rely on our documents to be able to accurately represent the past. If we change these, we are essentially “deleting” the past. I mentioned before, DeSantis’s revisionism. What if we got rid of all mentions of slavery in our historical record? No future historian could ever study slavery. It would essentially not have happened.
Now, the reason for doing it may be noble. You want a trans person to feel better about the transition, so you change the name on the birth certificate. But I think that this does not warrant the alteration of historical records. Put a little amendment star on the birth certificate and attach a new document if it needs to be done. This is what many places do. But do not change the original document in such a way that makes it seem they were born a sex they were not.
deleted by creator
The bill is not very long you can read it here
In 2019 the Kansas courts essentially passed a ruling that made it so you could change the birth certificate. Not an amendment. Just totally alter the birth certificate to change both the name and the sex - as if it were the name and sex you were born with. Which, as we discussed, is absurd.
Now it’s impossible legally speaking because they passed that new law, SB 180 that defines what a man or a woman is. And in that new definition, you are either male at birth, female at birth, or have some sort of sex “disorder/difference”. You can’t alter that sex in the legal sense.
Which to be honest, I don’t really see what the big deal is. Who cares what a piece of paper says? What is more important is your sense of self-identity and how people treat you. At the end of the day, If you are born a male and you undergo a transition… take estrogen, grow breasts, look feminine, etc. If I see you walking down the street, I will assume you are a female and I will treat you as such. I think everyone has the right to respect, dignity, and the pursuit of happiness.
However, we cannot start playing make-believe. A male->female trans person will always have XY chromosomes. If they transitioned after puberty, they will always have the male sexualization period that allows for muscle growth, adam’s apple, etc. No amount of wishing or contemporary medicine can reverse these things.
So why not just keep the legal documents accurate and just treat them how they would like to be treated? Why the need to try and deny reality? This concerted effort to try and say 2 + 2 = 5? I really don’t understand how everyone is OK with this. I guess this is what ideology is.
You’re off by about 1000-3500 according to the study i just found. “The estimated frequency of genital ambiguity is reported to be in the range of 1:2000-1:4500”
If the document was the summary of the person then fine change it. If the only people that were looking to change it were those affected by genital ambiguity mentioned then fine change it. But it isn’t the case, not everyone who is trans is someone like that, and they don’t have to be. They were born as one gender and they want to live as another, that’s fine but don’t change records to suit that. You don’t move house and change your birth location.
deleted by creator
Ok? I’m not saying not to do it for them, it is a legitimate case in that it couldn’t be determined at birth or the person, as a result of the ambiguousness, can choose to be either and the initial document was wrong.
I’m saying that if I want to transition tomorrow I shouldn’t change my cert, I’ve lived my life as I am now and while I want to change going forward I can’t and shouldn’t change the past.
deleted by creator
If you read my other comments you’d see that my view is exactly the same for changing your name.
As for women changing theirs, there is an additional document created and registered to reflect that change so you can trace the birth name to the marriage name and onward from there.
It is literally changing our recording of history, it doesn’t matter right now but in the future we may rely on accurate records for something and having a practice wherein you can change the details recorded for a past event is not going to help that
How about this: I’ll enjoy my updated birth certificate, and you can go fuck yourself?
Very good counter argument, well thought out and presented. Maybe get the cert amended to show you self identify as an asshole?
Maybe I can rip yours up and stuff it in the trash?