Former Rep. Adam Kinzinger (R-Ill.) bashed former President Trump online and said Christians who support him ā€œdonā€™t understandā€ their religion.

ā€œIā€™m going to go out on a NOT limb here: this man is not a Christian,ā€ Kinzinger said on X, formerly known as Twitter, responding to Trumpā€™s Christmas post. ā€œIf you are a Christian who supports him you donā€™t understand your own religion.ā€

Kinzinger, one of Trumpā€™s fiercest critics in the GOP, said in his post that ā€œTrump is weak, meager, smelly, victim-ey, belly-achey, but he ainā€™t a Christian and heā€™s not ā€˜Godā€™s man.ā€™ā€

  • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    1
    Ā·
    edit-2
    11 months ago

    Caesar

    Starting with Tiberius, Roman emperors gave their heirs the name ā€œCaesar,ā€ such that ā€œCaesarā€ came to be known as the term used for the emperor or his heir (i.e. itā€™s the root of kaiser in German, tsar in Russia, ā€œqaysarā€ in the Ottoman Empire). Tiberius wasnā€™t born with the name and adopted it later, and took the honorific ā€œAugustusā€ when he took the throne. So ā€œCaesar Augustusā€ was the emperor, and ā€œCaesarā€ was either the emperor (shorthand) or the heir. Itā€™s kind of like a mix between family name and title, so ā€œCaesarā€ can refer to any of the line of dictators following Julius Caesar, or it can refer to the title of the emperor or his heir.

    So thatā€™s why I understand ā€œCaesarā€ in this context as whoever the ruling dictator is, not the government or society as a whole. This isnā€™t an admonition to act in the greater good, but to show obedience to those in charge, which is a theme Iā€™ll get back to later.

    If you donā€™t redistribute your wealth to the poor, you are going to be tortured by the devil.

    Jesus never says this. The only thing thatā€™s close is the ā€œeye of a needleā€ allegory, and the intention seems to communicate that itā€™s incredibly difficult, though not impossible. He has been more explicit about hard requirements elsewhere:

    Matthew 5:20

    For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven

    John 3:3,16

    Jesus answered him, ā€œTruly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.ā€

    John 3:16

    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

    So Jesus hasnā€™t hesitated to use direct language, so it doesnā€™t make sense to take this as ā€œitā€™s impossible.ā€ In fact, just before the ā€œeye of a needleā€ allegory, he says itā€™s merely difficult.

    Mark 10:20-23

    And he said to him, ā€œTeacher, all these I have kept from my youth.ā€

    And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, ā€œYou lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.ā€

    Disheartened by the saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

    And Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, ā€œHow difficult it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!ā€

    So itā€™s not the money itself thatā€™s the problem, but the love of money. Youā€™re not going to hell because you have a lot of money, youā€™re going to hell because you love it more than God, who has been explicit in whatā€™s most important.

    Matthew 22:36-40

    "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?ā€

    Jesus replied: ā€œā€˜Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.ā€™

    This is the first and greatest commandment.

    And the second is like it: ā€˜Love your neighbor as yourself.ā€™

    All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.ā€

    A wealthy person should feel obligated to help their fellow man because thatā€™s what God would do. But the actual law is to love God and your fellow man with all your heart, and thatā€™s possible while having a lot of wealth, just incredibly unlikely because most with wealth get it by being selfish.

    In short, if you feel God wants you to give everything away, you should not hesitate to do it, and that hesitation is what damned the rich young man, despite being otherwise righteous.

    He didnā€™t say anything about obligations to governments

    His Apostles did, such as Paul:

    Romans 13:1-7

    Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.

    Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.

    For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.

    For he is Godā€™s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is Godā€™s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5

    Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscienceā€™ sake.

    For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are Godā€™s ministers attending continually to this very thing.

    Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.

    Jesus taught obedience consistently, and the Apostles taught what Jesus taught, so I see this as a retelling of what Jesus taught, not something new Paul came up with.

    So to me, the message is very clear, Jesus and God expect obedience, both to earthly rulers as well as heavenly ones. And hereā€™s how Jesus expects leaders to rule:

    Matthew 20:25-28

    Jesus called them together and said, ā€œYou know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them.

    Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,

    and whoever wants to be first must be your slaveā€”

    just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.ā€

    So you must obey your leaders, and Jesus expects to leaders to serve those they lead. In that way everyone serves each other, but thereā€™s also order.

    Edit: couldnā€™t get the spoiler block to behave, so I canā€™t hide all the noisy verses.

    • btaf45@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      1
      Ā·
      11 months ago

      Why did you supply all those quotes that were irrelevant?

      Roman emperors gave their heirs the name ā€œCaesar,ā€ such that ā€œCaesarā€ came to be known as the term used for the emperor or his heir

      The emperor was the ā€œAugustusā€. ā€œCaesarā€ was the heir. Either way it makes my point. It was talking about the government, not a specific person.

      If you donā€™t redistribute your wealth to the poor, you are going to be tortured by the devil. Jesus never says this. The only thing thatā€™s close is the ā€œeye of a needleā€ allegory, and the intention seems to communicate that itā€™s incredibly difficult, though not impossible.

      It means that it is almost impossible for ā€œrichā€ men to go to heaven. Like one in a million. George Bush? Hell. Carly Fiorina? Hell. Betsy Devos? Hell. None of those people have anywhere near the humility and meekness to be the one in a million rich people who donā€™t go to hell.

      • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        1
        Ā·
        11 months ago

        Why did you supply all those quotes

        I couldnā€™t get the spoiler tag to work properly, and my intention was to establish cases where Jesus was explicit about requirements to establish how language is used.

        If Jesus meant being wealthy would disqualify you from heaven, he wouldā€™ve said so, but instead he said itā€™s ā€œdifficult.ā€ Thatā€™s an important distinction and shows that the root of the problem isnā€™t the money itself (else why would Job have received so many riches after his trial?). The thing that disqualifies you is loving material things more than God, not having the material things.

        The emperor was ā€œAugustusā€. ā€œCaesarā€ was the heir.

        No, ā€œCaesarā€ was the family name of the ruling family, as in the dynasty name. After Tiberius, the ruler was usually named ā€œCaesar Augustus,ā€ with ā€œAugustusā€ being an honorific, much like ā€œthe honorable.ā€

        So ā€œCaesarā€ was likely commonly used to refer to the ruling family, much like we might say ā€œthe Bidensā€ in the US. So Jesus was simply saying, ā€œgive to the ruler that which is the rulerā€™s,ā€ not ā€œpay your taxes so you can help you fellow man.ā€ Paying taxes was a moral obligation to promote social order, giving to God was a moral obligation to show obedience and love for God. If anything, the money given to the temple was used for more good than taxes.

        None of those people have anywhere near the humility or meekness

        Exactly (though itā€™s not your place to judge, thatā€™s Godā€™s job). Itā€™s not the money thatā€™s the issue here, the issue is prioritizing worldly things over God.

        If we use the gate example (again, thatā€™s in question by experts), the idea is that to get through the gate, the camel needs to leave behind its baggage, because otherwise itā€™s too tall to fit. A wealthy person needs to be willing to leave all their wealth behind you be with God, and thatā€™s less likely because of the way most people get their wealth. Iā€™m not saying thatā€™s what Jesus meant, but it does have a lot of merit and fits nicely with the rest of his message.

        If the young man said heā€™s willing to give up everything to follow Jesus, he wouldā€™ve compared him to Job or something as a good example of what one ā€œshouldā€ do. Worldly wealth and status are irrelevant to God, and he should be the one we want to impress, and we do that by aligning our will with his (e.g. he wants to see suffering alleviated, sinners repent, etc).

        And thatā€™s my entire point here. Nothing Jesus said indicates what form of government we should have, his message was for individuals to align their will with Godā€™s and follow his example. Thatā€™s it.

        • btaf45@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          1
          Ā·
          11 months ago

          but instead he said itā€™s ā€œdifficult.ā€

          He didnā€™t say itā€™s merely ā€œdifficultā€. He essentually said it is almost impossible. That doesnā€™t mean only 1 in every 5 rich people can go to heaven. That means 1 in every 5000 or 1 in every 50000.

          No, ā€œCaesarā€ was the family name of the ruling family, as in the dynasty name.

          Nope. Not a dynasty name. It was the name of the heir to the throne. But yes ā€œCaesarā€ was symbolic of the government itself.

          • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            1
            Ā·
            11 months ago

            almost impossible

            No, he used the word difficult.

            From what I understand, the wisdom at the time was that money was an indicator of favor from God, and Jesus went against that. However, I donā€™t think he meant that money was the issue, but merely a symptom of interests not aligned with Godā€™s. Many wealthy people care more about their wealth and fame than God or those around them.

            Not a dynasty name

            If you just said ā€œAugustus,ā€ people would think of Octavian, not the current emperor, so ā€œCaesar Augustusā€ wouldā€™ve been used to uniquely refer to the emperor. After Tiberius, emperors typically had both titles, and the heir apparent just had ā€œa Caesar,ā€ so it acted as a dynastic name, even if the heir wasnā€™t a blood relation (e.g. Tiberius himself was adopted). So both the emperor and heir held the title ā€œCaesarā€ and only the emperor also held the title ā€œAugustus.ā€

            It seems odd for Jesus to be referring to the heir apparent here, he would be referring to the emperor. To add to it, Julius Caesar was deified, so ā€œCaesarā€ here likely has a double meaning to show the difference between a self-proclaimed god and the true God. Heā€™s not saying you should pay taxes to benefit others, heā€™s saying you should pay taxes because thatā€™s your legal obligation.

            And yes, ā€œCaesarā€ was symbolic, but Iā€™d assume most would refer to the government as ā€œRome,ā€ not ā€œCaesar.ā€

            • btaf45@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              1
              Ā·
              11 months ago

              No, he used the word difficult.

              Initially. Then he realized he needed to be more blunt. So he gave a metaphor making it clear it was almost impossible, and even bluntly said ā€œwith man this is impossibleā€. The reaction of the disciples also prove it had nothing at all to do with any ā€œgateā€.

              23Then Jesus said to his disciples, ā€œTruly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven.

              24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.ā€

              25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, ā€œWho then can be saved?ā€

              26Jesus looked at them and said, ā€œWith man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.ā€

              • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                1
                Ā·
                11 months ago

                Who then can be saved?

                They were astonished because, at the time, wealth was considered to be a sign of favor from God. Jesusā€™ statements at the time went directly against that, and thatā€™s what surprised them. There was similar surprise at his statements that the meek and humble would inherit the earth and go to heaven.

                The scandal wasnā€™t that rich people in general probably wouldnā€™t go to heaven, but that seemingly righteous people wouldnā€™t go to heaven.

                Who then can be saved?

                With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.

                I think heā€™s referring to salvation generally here. Man cannot save himself, so no amount of wealth will be helpful. God can save man, and he is the one that makes it possible.

                So whether itā€™s a gate or a literal needle isnā€™t really relevant, God controls who gets to heaven, and Godā€™s expectations are at odds with people who love money. The message here is that wealth doesnā€™t indicate favor with God and it cannot save you, so you should focus on what can save you. You can have wealth and those attributes, but wealth attracts selfish people, and those selfish attributes will prevent you from entering heaven.