I apologize if this has been asked before, but I’m wondering if it would be feasible to implement a new approach to defederation that offers the option of choosing between complete or partial defederation from another instance.
Currently, defederation blocks both the locally made posts on the defederated instance and its entire userbase. This can be excessive, and in many cases it may be better to block only the posts made on the other instance while still allowing its users to interact with the instance that defederated — user behavior may differ between their home instance and other instances. This partial defederation (or limited federation) would facilitate normal interaction without negatively affecting the content of a feed.
Problematic users could be managed on a case-by-case basis using bans, similar to how it is done for federated instances. Automated tools could simplify this process in the future. Complete defederation would still be necessary in extreme cases where no positive user interactions are expected, such as with instances that promote Nazism.
Instances are being forced to choose between a sledgehammer and nothing at all, and I think a compromise is warranted. I’m curious to read others’ thoughts on how to solve this existing challenge.
EDIT: I added a rough sketch that outlines the proposal. On the left side is the system as it works now and on the right side are two possible scenarios for limited federation (1 direction or bidirectional)
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Splitting hairs, but I think rather than implementing a partial defederation, I think it would be better to set user rights for a given federation instance. Some federations you might want to allow view only access, access to a certain “tier” of communities, etc. Make the rights customizable so its as granular as needed by the server.
While I like the idea of granular permissions in principle, I feel like it could cause confusion and frustration for users depending on its implementation. For example, if a user from instance A is unable to reply to a user from instance B, even though both are posting on instance C and are visible to each other. So while granular permissions would be powerful, they could also introduce unwanted scenarios that would be difficult for the average user to understand.
That’s why I think it would be good to start with a simpler system. Partial defederation (or limited federation) seems like a compromise which could strike a reasonable balance between controlling content on local instances while minimizing the impact on user experience across instances. That said, if permissions/rights were implemented in a limited or user-friendly way, they could also work.
Beehaw feels like it’s ran by power tripping mods hiding behind toxic positivity and I’m not sad they defederated. I wouldn’t denigrate anybody for preferring it but I personally like a little more freedom.
At the very least this move highlighted a big problem with the Fediverse that needs to be ironed out. So I guess that’s good.
I am not totally against or in favour of what they are doing and I can’t even say what side I tip to. I feel very 50/50.
I think it is in a “meta” way useful for the community, especially those of us (like me) new to the fediverse, to see it. However it goes, we can look and see and form opinions and learn. If it is a mistake, it’s a mistake that is inevitable. The capacity is built into the tools and someone was going to use it.
I only wish I knew how or where some sort of… journalism?.. record? was being kept so that things could be understood later by the people not here to see it. So that the same mistakes don’t have to happen every 6 months.
EXACTLY
It seems like defederating harms the ones who do it, as it provides incentives for users who want to access both servers to go to a 3rd party. From kbin I can currently see both.
I disagree. I think you should either federate fully or not at all.
Why should we let instances browse and comment in our communites without reciprocity?
“A Modest Proposal.”
Wait, this isn’t satire? ;)
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Not necessarily. There’s a Mastodon setting that would have worked here, it lets users from your community interact with another but doesn’t let users from that community come into yours.
Imo de-federation literally breaks the WHOLE fucking point of all of this.
This needs to happen. This is getting ridiculous
I have a feeling that given a couple of years, things will settle out a bit and be more like Mastodon.
Could you imagine if your ISP/Gmail was so particular about what servers you could send email to?
There will always be valid reasons to defederate, although I think the bar for that is going to end up pretty high and well-defined in the future, but it’s sort of an organic process to get there.
Hope so
I’m out of the loop, could someone explain what happened?
All I know is that Beehaw defederated (or was defederated by) someone because of trolls?
Beehaw block lemmy.wolrd and sh.itjust.works
Yeah, they defederated from lemmy.ml as wellEDIT: Seems like that’s no longer the case. Before I wasn’t able to comment in beehaw.
At this point, they might just be going the way of turning off federation completely, at which point they can have their little curated walled garden where no one can disobey without a full account ban, and then they will slowly cease to exist.
lemmy.ml is still on Beehaw’s list of instances.
Oh weird. Last I checked you couldn’t reply or comment on any beehaw posts. Seems to be working okay now.
The comment I read made it seem as some kind of pitiful faction war but it’s pretty understandable, maybe it could even have a positive impact on Lemmy as a whole
I’d suggest that beehaw’s concerns could be met with a tool that lets you disable posting or voting from off-instance users unless they meet threshold criteria, whether it be account age or post history or manual approval. That would allow you to keep your content interaction controlled without the nuclear option of complete removal.
Meta: I think that the world would be a vastly better place if more people spent more time and effort focused on themselves and their own actions rather than on other people and their actions.
It sounds to me as if the problem is one of technology and manpower; both need to be enhanced. Voting to bell the cat won’t help if it’s impossible to do!
Yeah, it is a bit of a flaw of the system in my opinion. While I do like lemmy so far, I do have a long list of things I want to point out in a longer post later this week.
As a user you are at the mercy of your instance to be randomly cut off from your favorite communities. Of course you can sign up in multiple instances, but that kind of defeats the point of federation
I like that idea. I had to create an account on 3 different instances to be able to interact with the communities I want because of instance blocks, it would be nice not having to juggle them all the time.
