Not even positive rights? You’re literally like “authority means it is by definition a class society” and you don’t believe in rights? How do you square that circle?
It honestly feels like this is a cheap rhetorical dismissal because you don’t want to compare what the actual material benefits of socialist revolutions are vs anarchist revolutions.
I didn’t think that I’d have to explain to somebody that the very existence of a hierarchy implies class structure.
And of course, there was no hierarchy in actual anarchist societies. /s.
Have you never heard of the concept of a transitional state? You know, that thing that socialists and anarchists both do, that involves hierarchy in repressing right wing elements? That socialists actually acknowledge the evil of, as opposed to pretending like they’re not doing a transitional state?
Or do you have a new super special plan to do classless society day one? If so I’d love to hear it.
nothing like moving the goalposts to end the workday.
i’m opposed to prefigurative theories of revolution. we don’t know what society will look like in every corner of the world without oppression. we do know what oppression is, and we can fight it.
we do know what oppression is, and we can fight it.
You’re against concentration of power. Can you name a single revolution that succeeded without some concentrated power, democratically concentrated or otherwise?
Can you name a single revolution that succeeded without some concentrated power, democratically concentrated or otherwise?
you’re going to need to define revolution and success and concentration, and at this point, we might as well just lay our cards on the table. you believe it’s only practical to have a transitional state. i have a suspicion about anything that even smells like a state. we will not reconcile this in !memes today.
i don’t think i’m misrepresenting your position. i feel i understand it, and i disagree about the practicality of setting up a system of oppression to end oppression.
Okay, so, the end result of inspiring people means that their political project succeeded? Their end goal was to inspire people? I thought their end goal was a classless, stateless society?
I thought their end goal was a classless, stateless society?
right, but since we (they) eschew(ed) prefigurative theories, we (they) only organized to fight. the actual structure of society is up to the people who live in the world that we (they) make possible.
one has nothing to do with the other, except that hierarchies sometimes pretend to respect (or grant)rights, but the fact that they have the discretion means the rights, themselves, are fictions.
It honestly feels like this is a cheap rhetorical dismissal because you don’t want to compare what the actual material benefits of socialist revolutions are vs anarchist revolutions.
that’s not what you proposed to use as a metric. i’m not sure how to quantify them and, frankly, or what a good measure would be, i guess.
i do know that i don’t trust anyone else to decide how i keep myself fed and safe. given the choice in constructing a revolution, i would empower individuals to a maximum degree and destroy concentrations of power wherever they’re found.
I think the anarchists in Spain have more of a claim to define anarchism than you tbh. And they absolutely had authority. Hell, they had concentration camps.
Okay, so at this point it seems anarchist societies are pretty impossible, if all these principled anarchists end up forming non-anarchist societies over and over again when they win power.
So what is even the point of being an anarchist? To feel good about yourself?
Thats literally the difference between us, I believe less exploitation is better than waiting for a perfect solution. Socializing the means of production, even if it doesn’t eliminate all exploitation, eliminates capitalist exploitation, which is a massive win for the working class as it is the main source of our exploitation.
I’m not sure if after capitalism is destroyed socialist States will actually wither away or not, but Im sure they’ll be less bloody to move past than capitalism was if it is the latter.
Not even positive rights? You’re literally like “authority means it is by definition a class society” and you don’t believe in rights? How do you square that circle?
It honestly feels like this is a cheap rhetorical dismissal because you don’t want to compare what the actual material benefits of socialist revolutions are vs anarchist revolutions.
And of course, there was no hierarchy in actual anarchist societies. /s.
Have you never heard of the concept of a transitional state? You know, that thing that socialists and anarchists both do, that involves hierarchy in repressing right wing elements? That socialists actually acknowledge the evil of, as opposed to pretending like they’re not doing a transitional state?
Or do you have a new super special plan to do classless society day one? If so I’d love to hear it.
it’s not new. gallianists have been at it for a century.
Sorry, I set the bar too low.
Feasible plans for a classless society day one.
How far have they gotten in that century? Because honestly the whole “at it for a century” thing reeks of failure.
nothing like moving the goalposts to end the workday.
i’m opposed to prefigurative theories of revolution. we don’t know what society will look like in every corner of the world without oppression. we do know what oppression is, and we can fight it.
You’re against concentration of power. Can you name a single revolution that succeeded without some concentrated power, democratically concentrated or otherwise?
It seems like you want to fight and lose.
you’re going to need to define revolution and success and concentration, and at this point, we might as well just lay our cards on the table. you believe it’s only practical to have a transitional state. i have a suspicion about anything that even smells like a state. we will not reconcile this in !memes today.
i don’t think i’m misrepresenting your position. i feel i understand it, and i disagree about the practicality of setting up a system of oppression to end oppression.
they got the fucking arch duke (and dozens of other heads of state). they blew up wallstreet. i think these are pretty big accomplishments.
Oh, wow, so they killed some people and bombed wall street.
How successful was that in achieving their political objectives?
very. they inspired millions, which was the goal of those actions.
Okay, so, the end result of inspiring people means that their political project succeeded? Their end goal was to inspire people? I thought their end goal was a classless, stateless society?
right, but since we (they) eschew(ed) prefigurative theories, we (they) only organized to fight. the actual structure of society is up to the people who live in the world that we (they) make possible.
that wasn’t their only goal, but it was one of them.
Okay, so would you agree that they failed at forming a classless, stateless society?
no
yes. it’s why we split at the second international. i wish you all would give up on the transitional state.
Can you name a large scale anarchist project that wouldn’t qualify as a transitional state?
this is a setup for a no-true-scotsman. i’ll talk to you about anarchist societies, but i won’t let you define them out of existence.
Sorry, are you saying there haven’t been any large scale anarchist projects?
i’m saying until you define “large scale” you gave your self enough wiggle room to push every scotsman into the sea.
Okay, containing more than 100, 000 people, that work for you?
and why should that be the metric?
Because that gives you generous wiggle room.
right
one has nothing to do with the other, except that hierarchies sometimes pretend to respect (or grant)rights, but the fact that they have the discretion means the rights, themselves, are fictions.
that’s not what you proposed to use as a metric. i’m not sure how to quantify them and, frankly, or what a good measure would be, i guess.
i do know that i don’t trust anyone else to decide how i keep myself fed and safe. given the choice in constructing a revolution, i would empower individuals to a maximum degree and destroy concentrations of power wherever they’re found.
Thats some right libertarian hyper-individualist hogwash. Stop being alienated from your fellow workers.
So, let’s say the workers form Soviets. Those Soviets have to be destroyed, right?
it is going to depend, isn’t it? are the soviets operated with consent and consensus?
i already explained i have no illusions that i can dictate what it’s going to look like after the revolution. i do know what i won’t tolerate.
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Is this material to whether the soviet is concentrating power? Either way you have a small group of people making legislative and executive actions.
a system that operates with consent and consensus has no authority.
Okay, you need to actually define authority, because I feel like each anarchist I’ve encountered has a different definition.
I know this was lazy. but I think it’s good enough.
edit: oh. this is a bit better
i have no problem working with my neighbors. i have big problems with someone tellingme how we should do that.
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if we’re working together I’m going to say how I think we should work.
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implying that I don’t want to change the status quo doesn’t change whether I do.
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we all know about the bootmaker, but i would say if there is an oppressive hierarchy, it’s not anarchist.
I think the anarchists in Spain have more of a claim to define anarchism than you tbh. And they absolutely had authority. Hell, they had concentration camps.
you don’t get to define what i am.
And you don’t get to no true Scotsman away the Catalonian or Ukrainian anarchists, who did large scale anarchist projects.
if you have cops, you’re not a fucking anarchist society. this shouldn’t be hard to understand.
Okay, so at this point it seems anarchist societies are pretty impossible, if all these principled anarchists end up forming non-anarchist societies over and over again when they win power.
So what is even the point of being an anarchist? To feel good about yourself?
which marxist project ended up stateless and classless?
Thats literally the difference between us, I believe less exploitation is better than waiting for a perfect solution. Socializing the means of production, even if it doesn’t eliminate all exploitation, eliminates capitalist exploitation, which is a massive win for the working class as it is the main source of our exploitation.
I’m not sure if after capitalism is destroyed socialist States will actually wither away or not, but Im sure they’ll be less bloody to move past than capitalism was if it is the latter.
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it’s tautological
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no. we should judge people by their actions. we should judge ideologies by their propositions.
Okay, I see. If we are judging ideologies purely by “wouldn’t it be nice if” then anarchism is clearly superior.
Well, on second though, no. “wouldn’t it be nice if we didn’t get defeated by fascists” certainly has a pretty nice ring to it…
you almost got me
i’m not saying i have a good plan. i’m saying i am suspicious of any plan that concentrates power, and i believe my suspicion is warranted.
I mean, look up the life expectancy of China vs India over time. Place your suspicion against the facts.
The fact is that China has police and prisons and banks. I don’t know for sure but I would guess they even have landlords. That’s not my revolution.
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