- cross-posted to:
- politicalmemes@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- politicalmemes@lemmy.world
I don’t like Biden either, but anyone with half a brain knows there are two choices in the 2020 election. If we had a sane voting system, voting third party might be worth it, but as it stands, no one but you knows your favorite candidate exists and unless you want to become their campaign manager that will still be true in November. Even if you did, and even if you convinced two thirds of the people who would otherwise have voted for Biden to vote for your chosen candidate instead, Trump would still win because half the country voted for him and your guy only got a third. If you vote third party you might as well stay home.
Not voting isn’t going to stop the genocide in Gaza. The US will continue to funnel them arms no matter which candidate wins this November. Trump practically campaigns on how much he hates the Jews and he’s publicly told Israel to “finish up their war”. He’ll also make life a living hell for anyone who isn’t a straight cisgender male back here at home.
A vote for a candidate is not an endorsement of them or their policies, it’s a statement that you like their policies more than the other guy’s, and “sticking it to liberals” and “refusing to support genocide” (that’s not what voting for Biden is doing, by the way – a vote for either candidate is a vote for genocide and a vote for neither is an endorsement of both) is not more important than keeping the furthest right politician America has ever seen out of office.
How incredibly privileged do you have to be to see an entire national election as what will happen in the Middle East and ignore Trump’s campaign promises to wipe transgender Americans off the map, and further, to not realize that the same thing will happen in the Middle East regardless of which candidate wins?
I hate Biden as much as every other leftist here. But I’ll still vote for him because Trump is worse. If there’s a single bone in your body that cares about the lives of your trans friends you will too.
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Also, trump appointed 3 supreme court justices, who will be there FOR LIFE.
Assassinate'em, you say?No, just kidding.
I’m just someone watching from Europe, getting a little concerned 😔
Same here. Watching from Europe, and going “hmm, I think we had a few very bloody revolutions to solve these kinds of problems”
Thanks to leftists who wouldn’t vote
Do I hate the two party system? Yes. Do I hate the fact that centrists like Joe Liberman who literally killed universal healthcare in the US are revered and embraced by Biden’s party? Yes. Do I hate the fact that Democrats are always dismissive of liberal ideas and often act like complete jackasses and can’t admit that when Obama was running there were a ton of Clinton supporters that didn’t vote for Obama in a blatant act of pure hypocrisy? Yes.
Do I fucking hate Nazis and Fascist? Fuck yes.
Hence why even if I don’t like the Democrat running, I’ll vote for them and honestly, Biden isn’t too sucktastic. Except for kyrsten sinema, she can fuck right the hell off forever.
I hate how so many critics talk about they when criticising a political party. Get involved. Run for local office, become a part of the inside of the party. How can Democrats ever represent younger leftists, when so few of the younger leftists let their voice be heard outside of anonymous forums?
Yeah lemme get like $2,000,000 so I can go run for office.
All so a bunch of white Boomers can show up and vote against you for being “too radical”.
Campaigns don’t tend to be self-funded.
Hey are you involved in your political party? Have you run for local office?
You aren’t also being a hypocrite by telling other people to get involved while not doing it yourself right?
Do I hate the fact that centrists like Joe Liberman who literally killed universal healthcare in the US are revered and embraced by Biden’s party?
Joe Biden explicitly said he would veto any legislation involving universal healthcare. You oppose universal healthcare, but you’re hiding behind the spectre of “centrists”.
And again, as a minority in America, I would take Biden over a Nazi any day. Doesn’t mean I love him to death and would take him into my arms and give him a reach around but fuck anyone who would vote for a Nazi.
Do I hate everything going on in this country? Yes. Do I still keep voting to have the same shit happen over and over? Yes.
I mean if you want to vote in a bunch of fucking Nazis and fascists just for some change , well feel fucking free to do so, I’m just going to consider you stupid and a Nazi.
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not literally everything that’s bad is fascist
Okay they Billy Madison.
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Sure. Very nice truthiness there Billy.
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The party needs to start trying to win apathetic voters over if they’re as terrified as they claim to be of trump, not just spout vague platitudes, push out the most bare bones minimum viable policy possible and then shrug when it gets dismembered in committee.
Indeed, you’ve spelled it out plainly: there is no vote option to end the U.S. funding of Israel’s genocide in Gaza.
I can either make a vote that won’t end it, or I can make a vote that won’t end it (and may actually make it worse, as you alluded) and will also lead to significant negative consequences for many groups of people here.
If there’s a single bone in your body that cares about the lives of your trans friends you will too.
Not just trans, but homosexual, non-white, non-religious, women.
Liberals would rather blame leftists than actually fight fascism.
Buddy, friend, gamer. It’s march. Can you bring this out in six months? There is no reason to fill everyone’s feed up like this and sow political division on the left over seven months before it’s relevant.
Plus, the pressure looks like it’s working, so a vote for Biden might be a lot more palatable then. A lot of your work might get done automatically
Anyone who doesn’t vote immediately loses the right to complain for the next 4 years.
Don’t like it? Should’ve done your duty and put in a vote.
Fuck you, fence sitters
Anyone that isn’t voting for Biden is helping someone get into office that will implement wildly homophobic and transphobic policies. People in this thread are really showing their cards.
So many dumb Americans here not voting. Cutting off your legs so you can hold the moral high ground. Moronic.
f there’s a single bone in your body that cares about the lives of your trans friends you will too.
Hey hi, it’s me, your trans friend. And you need to put this energy towards protesting Biden instead of leftists. I honestly feel like you are low key getting trolled and missing the point?
Like, seriously, we all know “shithole countries” Trump would be worse on every single issue, including and especially Gaza. But it’s six months till the election, PLENTLY of time for a course change by Biden. Absolutely a second Trump term scares the 💩 out of me. So i appreciate where you are coming from, but until it’s November, I think pressing Dems and trusting leftists to do whats right day of is the most good y’all can do.
trusting leftists to do whats right
i can’t trust leftists because leftists are stupid. look how they lost italy, the leftists splintered and refused to work together because of petty shit which allowed the right including literal fascists to take over the government. this is the same type of dumb stuff that happens everywhere with leftists, because of their “holier than thou” attitude.
i will not leave the election’s outcome in the leftists’ hands because they always fuck it up when that’s the case. they always refuse to cooperate with the enemies of their enemy because they don’t see them as left enough, despite it being the only option to not have their long-term goals permanently blocked off, and the country always devolves into diet fascism afterwards. it has lost us many nations throughout history, so no thanks.
This is actually straight up revisionism, it was the Liberals who sided with fascists, rather than working with Leftists to stop the fascists, that directly allowed for Hitler and Mussolini to come to power.
I’m not sure what you mean by “the Liberals” but I’m not referring to pre-WW2. I’m referring to right now. The current state of Italy. The one where leftists had the government, and then completely screwed up in the face of a rising right-wing threat because they decided they don’t agree with some of the things the other leftists were doing.
Ah, fair. I am not as familiar with modern Italy, but it sounds like refusing to work together is a two-way street, though I would love to see an example of what you’re specifically referring to.
The easiest (although not best) example for Italy is the PM. The previous center-left politicians in office were by no means perfect PMs, but the left’s infighting and the ensuing breakup of the coalition of various left and center-left parties caused Draghi to resign, and the next (and current) PM is Giorgia Meloni who is an actual fascist who has on multiple occasions reminisced of the good old days with Mussolini in charge and a good economy. Nowadays with hindsight people miss the preceding leftist PMs and think they were actually pretty good after all, but it’s too late for that. The country has already started a tumble towards the right and it’d be extremely hard to get it out, especially considering that the left still is refusing to work together.
There were other factors, such as the left in Italy generally tending anti-Ukraine and the population’s concerns about immigration, as well as the right focusing a lot on anti-LGBTQ rhetoric/paranoia (Italy is a very catholic nation so this was an effective strategy), but the most important factor and the ultimate killing blow was the left breaking apart.
There’s definitely a lot more to it, than that. I’d have to research more, because historically it’s always the Liberals who refuse to work with Leftists against fascists.
Just like now with a bunch if liberals filling up my feed with vote blue no matter who bullshit.
Benjamin Netanyahu himself could be running as the democratic nominee and they’d tell me he’s better than trump.
He isn’t. Netanyahu and trump are two peas in a pod.
There were other factors, such as the left in Italy generally tending anti-Ukraine
Wait, what do you mean? So far I think I’ve only seen some leftists be against sending weapons (which is still a stupid position to take considering the situation), but nothing explicitly anti-Ukraine and absolutely not the majority. Did I miss something?
Italy isn’t real, it was made up by the House of Savoy to justify conquering adjacent city-states.
Step 1: defeat Trump Step 2: help reshape Democratic party
Because the fact is, if we don’t do step 1 first, we’ll have our work cut out for us the next four or more years just being back in ‘The Resistance’. Which you know isn’t going to make the Dems more liberal, it’s going to pull them to the right as more dissatisfied Trump voters finally peel off.
On the other hand, the more resounding of a defeat we can dish out to the GQP and MAGA, the easier it will be to send them into the wilderness to regroup politically so we can focus all of our energies on the Democratic party.
We defeated Trump in 2020. Nothing changed and Biden spent his entire term catering to liberals and moderates.
And republicans and fascists and corporations and Wall Street… hmmm but he did almost cancel a lot of student debt, but actual trying to cancel most people’s student debt was “too high”. No cracking down on predatory lending or anything. Plenty of other countries have free college, but its just too damn hard in the worlds richest country, you know jack.
Earn the vote Biden.
He can’t do it because Congress is too divided because you didn’t fucking vote.
Who didn’t vote? What senate races were reasonably within reach that people didn’t show up for? Same question for the house.
Me when I don’t understand what the house and senate are.
Sorry if I am missing your point - did you think he’d cater to conservatives?
Lol! I expected him to make material compromises with the millions of progressives and leftists who held their nose and voted for him. The fact that you seem completely unaware of these factions Democrats depend on to win elections is just… a perfect example of how out of touch liberal and moderate voters are. They can’t win elections without our votes. They need to start acting like it.
Okay so you’re saying he isn’t liberal enough I guess. I am pretty far left myself and would of course love more but I would argue that he’s also gotten a lot of pretty great leftist stuff accomplished.
And while we should absolutely hold his feet to the fire to pull him further left, saying “earn my vote or else” with the ‘or else’ being Trump, is not a very practical threat. Like a cut off your nose to spite your face kind of stupid.
If you want to see the things you care about set back another four years OR MORE than sure, don’t vote for Biden this year.
How has Biden meaningfully moved America towards some form of worker ownership of the Means of Production, and away from Capitalist ownership of the Means of Production?
When will the Democrats move to the left? Will it be next election? What about the one after that? Why has this same line been tossed for decades, prevent fascism now, leftism later?
I ask this as a leftist that will probably hold my nose and vote for Biden: why on Earth do you imagine the DNC will ever move leftwards, instead of remaining liberal right-wingers?
Okay so you’re saying he isn’t liberal enough I guess. I am pretty far left myself and would of course love more but
I’m not trying to tell you what to call yourself but if you spend all your time and energy arguing against leftists instead of moderates and liberals what exactly makes you left? Call yourself whatever you like but your actions are indistinguishable from a moderate or a liberal.
I would argue that he’s also gotten a lot of pretty great leftist stuff accomplished.
🙄Oh please, do tell me what material leftist victory was made by Biden. A bunch of corporate handouts? Not leftist. Passing the IRA? That was the BBB stripped of everything leftists and progressives were excited about. Maybe you’re so delusional you think blocking a rail strike is a leftist victory. Or maybe you think shipping weapons to a country committing genocide is some kind of leftist victory. Or raising the defense budget. Or forcing federal workers back to the office. Or setting Yellen and Powell on a war path against American workers.
You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about.
If you want to see the things you care about set back another four years OR MORE than sure, don’t vote for Biden this year.
The stuff I care about was already held back four years with Biden.
Like a cut off your nose to spite your face kind of stupid.
Yeah I’ve heard this plenty. You realize this cuts both ways right? Moderate and liberal voters refusing to compromise with leftists and progressives is every bit the same. Why are you trying to hold progressives and leftists to a different standard?
I’m arguing with other leftists because I have hope that I can help them make the right choice strategically while countering the rampant rightwing disinfo which like it or not, that’s what you’re parroting.
Again, you’re indistinguishable from a moderate or a liberal. You talk like one, you act like one, you vote like one. Regardless of what you believe you’re not doing anything that would accomplish anything we’re fighting for.
Not advocating for voting third party, but how do you genuinely plan on reshaping the democrat party, and how would this time be different, compared to the past?
This is my question too. I’m old (Gen X), and I’ve never seen the Democrats acting progressive. The last time I had hope was in 08 when I volunteered for the Obama campaign, only for him to out himself as yet another conservative wearing progressive clothes once he took office.
The correct answer is that politicians are not simply groups of “good” and “evil” people, but people acting in the interests of the US state, and by extension the wealthy Capitalists that guide it.
Democrats are not a party of positive, incremental change, even if that’s how they position themselves. They act swiftly in the direction of liberalism, and only make concessions to leftists and progressives when they become threatening, not when leftists cooperate.
Waiting and voting harder for the least worst candidates just continues their existing trends, if the Dems had overwhelming support they would continue to do the bare minimum.
It’s not a coincidence that the GOP is far more radically fascist, that’s where they get their votes! That’s why the GOP manages to do a lot of damage, because if they didn’t, they would get tossed aside for another party. They cling on with barely enough support to occasionally get elected despite Democrat majority.
I wish I could upvote this one more than once. This is spot on, I think.
Maybe Marx had some good ideas, that’s all I’m saying, haha.
I think “Marx had some good ideas” is a statement leftists of every ideology can agree on!
Sorry I wasn’t clear - I’m saying if you care about reshaping the Dems, you do it after we defeat Trump.
There is no guarantee it will be different this time, that’s politics. But giving up on it isn’t an option - politics happens to us whether we are active or not. But if you’re hoping for change, it’ll be a lot harder to see if Trump gets reelected. I promise you that.
That same line was told during 2020, 2016, 2008, 2000, and so forth. Where is the leftist concession? Where is the Democratic party being pushed? How are you planning on achieving change?
You’re basically just repeating yourself now. Like it or not, you’re parroting the played out lines that the Trumpist want us to repeat to strengthen their hand.
Politics isn’t easy but ‘burn it down because they’re not catering to me’ is not a responsible vote this year.
When will it be time? How do you plan on shaping dems? You’re repeating yourself here.
I don’t know what you’re even asking - how do I personally plan to shape the party? If I could wave a magic wand I would but obviously it’s something that is shaped by the collective and we all need to be engaged in the various areas we are passionate about.
This ‘cater to me or else’ sort of nihilism is the laziest sort of attitude and I get really tired of seeing it in liberal circles. I can tell you’re passionate and are probably very politically active in your own ways, but so many people seem to think that withholding their vote will sove the problem and that it then somehow absolves them of having to do anything else.
You’re wrong on quite a few things here.
How can a leftist meaninfully convince a liberal Capitalist party to move leftward, rather than continuing liberalism? Seriously speaking, if I am a leftist, and I want Leftist change, how do you think I should go about doing that?
It’s not nihilism, it’s not liberalism, and it’s not “cater to me or else,” that’s pure condescension. I am also not planning on witholding my vote, I want genuine leftist change.
Why does promising to vote for liberalism, a right wing ideology, help Leftists unless the DNC feels threatened by a lack of progressive support and thus concedes?
The moment Trump was defeated in 2020 liberal and moderates did exactly what they always do: demand priority over leftists and progressives in every policy disagreement and Biden was happy to oblige.
No. Moderate voters, liberal voters, the DNC, establishment Democrats and Biden will all reshape now or lose to Trump. Make a choice.
I’m sorry but this is basically the same argument that I got multiple others in this thread so instead of answering again, I’m going to ask you a question.
What exactly is y’alls game plan then? How do you think you’ll benefit by punishing Biden and helping get Trump elected?
Your question attempts to hold progressives and leftists to a different standard than moderates and liberals.
What is the game plan of moderates, liberals, establishment Democrats and Biden? How do they think they’ll benefit by refusing to make material compromises with leftists and progressives?
You told me this last fucking election and nothing has changed.
I lost my reproductive freedoms
I fear for my wife’s life whenever we have to travel out of state - she’s trans
Clarance fucking Thomas is threatening to undo gay marriage.
The democrats have done NOTHING for me. And instead i’m watching half of them cheerlead a fucking genocide of brown people in the middle east
How are they different from republicans? How is biden different than trump? He’s trying to pass trump’s immigration plan while letting Bibi murder his neighbors.
Nah fam. I’m officially giving up. People like you who refuse to hold democrats to account have made life worse for everyone.
I’m sorry but you are blaming the wrong people for all of this
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It’s clear y’all are trolls at this point
This is a really contrived hypothesis and probably wishful thinking considering the current state of the world, but hear me out:
You know how the Overton window gets shifted? Rightwing voters grew a lot in the US and Democrats had to get more to the right to appeal to them and not keep losing.
We just need to force the reverse. If Democrats keep winning elections Republicans will be forced to put out a candidate that’s more palatable to leftists sooner or later. Someone who isn’t a literal movie villain. At that point, Democrats will lose their only selling point (being the alternative to Satan himself), and they will have to actually push for leftist policies to get people to vote.
This can only happen if Democrats win a lot of times in a row though. Even one Republican win will ensure them that they can keep pushing fascists and have a chance to win.
The thing I generally disagree with is the idea that Democrats would move leftward, and not just further into Liberalism. Even Social Democracies in the Nordic countries are seeing a decrease in the welfare state, just like Reagan did with FDR-era policies.
Except step one is repeated every. damn. time.
Its never time to reshape the Democratic Party. If the democrats win, it will be too early to fix the Democratic Party for millions of reasons. And four years pass and every campaign promise is ignored, and all of a sudden it’s back to 1. Beat the new threat to “democracy” 2. Fix the Democratic Party… ad nauseam forever.
It’s never too early to help shape the Democratic party, absolutely do it now. But it’s a long process and if you can’t see how it has changed in the last 20 years already I don’t know what to tell you. And beating Trump is priority #1 if we’re going to continue on that path.
We can’t do that if people don’t vote actual leftist in the primaries because “commies won’t win the general”.
Bc boomers have strangeholded our govt for decades. Its convenient that now that theyre dying off this is the shit we get to try and elect the actual genocidal maniac and not the dinosaur keeping to the same foreign policy the US has kept for 70 yrs in order to keep our other allies from thinking we will abandon them the way we did the Kurds or Ukraine.
Fuck that, pass electoral reform so people can vote 3rd party with no spoiler effect and leave these dinosaur political parties in the past where they belong.
Do you think it’ll be easier or harder to get electoral reform passed if Trump is elected?
I think that the threat of losing to trump is the most powerful leverage progressives and leftists have at getting actual reformation of the party, and this election is the democrats race to lose.
So right now everyone who is pissed at Biden or the democrats, should be letting their anger known and be as loud as possible about it
Agreed.
Either moderate and liberal voters along with establishment Democrats and Biden make a big pivot or this will go down in history as a lesson: do not fuck with labor.
This will be the most important election in the history of the united states. You have two choices, Dictator, or Democracy. A no vote is a vote AGAINST Democracy.
a vote for either candidate is a vote for genocide
Demanding people vote for genocide as a lesser of two evils is where we are at now.
Let us not forget how much Trump hates environmental regulation. He will auction off America’s treasures for whoever sticks enough money in his pocket. Biden has done a pretty decent job of maintaining the old guard mentality of preservation and conservation (as imperfect as that may be).
I wish more people cared about the environment.
People need to understand that it’s possible to vote against genocide.
No, it doesn’t matter that he’s an active participant in the apparatus that’s creating the genocide, because if he’s in office there’s less genocide. Which is the important part, and pretending otherwise is sophistry. If you abstain from voting, you are increasing the likelihood of more genocide and if you discourage others from voting, you are an active participant in the overall social apparatus that is probabilistically increasing the amount of genocide.
The utility calculation is dead simple: more votes for Biden in key states makes more genocide less likely, and discouraging people from voting for Biden makes more genocide more likely. Therefore, discouraging people from voting for Biden is a pro-genocide strategy and voting for Biden in battleground states is an anti-genocide strategy. I live in a solid blue state, so I reserve the right to vote third party, but I will also encourage other people to vote for Biden.
You should vote for Biden unless you live in a solid blue state, and even then it’s not a bad idea.
Edit: grammar correction
Even if you’re in a solid blue state, vote for Biden. Because you don’t know if it’s your vote that pushes your state over that line.
I think your stance on the issue is entirely reasonable.
The endgame of your utility calculation is genocidal. 30 years from now, I suspect you’ll still be blasting this “vote blue no matter who” nonsense when the choice is between a dem supporting 5 genocides and a repub supporting 10 genocides. You’ve been anchor biased hard as fuck.
What’s your plan that makes the endgame not genocidal? Remember to make it fit reality.
You say “make it fit reality”, but why do I feel like what you really mean is “make sure it does not at all challenge US hegemony”.
If your ecocidal political project whose institutions were devised a blink ago by 30 year old slavers starts going genocidal, your project has lost the right to exist. To put it plainly, I think we all have a duty to start thinking about what dismantling the genocidal US empire would look like: reading marx, getting armed, building networks, embracing anti-capitalism, and preparing for this country’s undeniably inevitable backslide into fascism.
reading marx, getting armed, building networks, embracing anti-capitalism, and preparing for this country’s undeniably inevitable backslide into fascism.
Voting Biden doesn’t prevent you from doing this, you know. Rather, it would probably make it easier.
In your hypothetical 30 years in the future scenario, this would still be a “more genocide” and “less genocide” pick. We should never have genocide but there’s no way to express that in the US binary voting system, so the choice would have to be tactical.
What do you propose instead?
Let’s suppose there are going to be genocides, what’s better, 5 or 10?
Thank you for defining anchor bias in such a succinct comment.
Thanks for not answering a very simple question.
I’m a transhumanist; my endgame is the abolition of all hardships including involuntary death. I want as many as possible among the those alive today to experience the universe beyond the fading of the last stellar remnants. That means clawing and fighting in every way I can and know how to allow as many people alive now to continue living. That means less genocide is better than more genocide, which in turn means that the immediate goal is making a Biden victory as likely as possible as I prepare more long-term projects. The long-term projects eliminate genocide. The Short term projects mitigate genocide. More successful short term projects increases the likelihood of more successful long-term projects.
In short: it is incredibly small-minded, presumptuous, and uncharitable of you to assume that I think voting is the only part of this massive game. Fuck off.
Wow how edgy. I don’t like either candidate so I’ll protest-stay-home. As if not voting is a form of protest.
Actually I’m legitimately curious. Where did that idea come from? Where did you get the idea that voting = endorsement.
If you were stranded in the wilderness and your options were to eat bug1 or bug2, would you choose to starve to death because “well, I just don’t want people to think that I enjoy eating cockroach”. Get over yourself and your childish mindset. Choosing not to participate is still making a choice.
Maybe when the maga fanatics come for your lgbt+ friends and family you’ll think differently. Or maybe not. I don’t know you or how comfortable you are with the maga end-game.
but anyone with half a brain knows there are two choices in the 2020 election.
Anyone who isn’t brainwashed by government propaganda and who is in good faith knows that supporting corrupted criminals is never the smart thing to do and that keeping voting for the “lesser evil” is exactly how sooner or later you end up with a dictator in power.
Not voting isn’t going to stop the genocide in Gaza.
Not supporting these fueling the genocide is indeed a way to stop the genocide. The US will continue to do as it please them and aid israel government because they are confident that neither red or blue will lose the elections and they will not lose any power. Unsupporting these parties will force them to change their policies not to lose any votes and lose their monopoly on power.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Israel_in_the_2023_Israel–Hamas_war
There’s a genocide happening right now where thousand of kids already were murdered and keep getting murderer as we speak. For these innocent people and not for the love of any god people should overthrow and fight the corrupted criminals that are making it possible, not supporting scum is already the smallest thing you should do.
keeping voting for the “lesser evil” is exactly how sooner or later you end up with a dictator in power.
Do you have a source for this claim? The US has been voting this way for 250 years, and it’s citizens have more rights than ever so forgive me for being a little bit skeptical.
it’s citizens have more rights than ever so forgive me for being a little bit skeptical.
How’s those rights to bodily autonomy going?
That’s not a source for your claim.
I’m a different user. I’m talking about your claim about the U.S. having more rights than ever, not the other claim.
Cool story new person, you still didn’t provide a source.
Because I’m talking about a different thing, and I was asking a question.
And no response from them but it’s people complaining who are wrong cause it makes them feel bad and it can be waived away with “but I’m sure it’s better now, it’s good for me”
Same argument every time. Sure harm reduction isn’t working but maybe you haven’t tried being up against a bad enough harm and also we need to not make a sound or else Mommy might come in and beat us for being upset.
Complaints about the system and setup we are in are more upsetting to those that can ignore it than the issues themselves.
I think these parties would sooner abandon no-voters who want change rather than actually change.
