Since we are all going; here is my take.
Breasts were always sexual in nature. For most species they signal fertility and what part of the cycle the individual is in at the moment. At some point human females evolved to have perpetually inflated breasts. There are a few different theories as to why that happened, but it is beside the point for this discussion. So considering they were evolved to attract or dissuade males, I say they certainly have a sexual function. In addition to this, breasts play a big part in sexual pleasure for the wearer.
Now consider people pairing up in monogamous couples. The male suspects that other males might be motivated to pursue his mate by the visage of his mates nice boobies. He asks his mate to cover them up so he feels more safe in his position. Now hundreds of years pass, and what do you know, it is in grained in the cultures. It’s not really too bad for the women, so they have lived with it, for the sake of peace. Sometimes it is even convenient to be covered. For example in cold weather. I bet there is a correlation between climate and a cultures willingness to have boobs in the open.
Tribes have not only hidden their populations breasts, they have been known to hide their women all together, so the neighbouring tribes don’t steal them. I feel that this is a bit similar. Put a gold bar in a glass display long enough, and someone will try to take it. Everything carries risk. If your society isn’t good at maintaining law, then it’s a bad idea to display the gold bar. In some places it might not be an issue at all. All women could go around topless as well, but the risk that they are approached by an aspiring male will probably be slightly increased.
So why do it now, in my amazing, functioning, egalitarian and lawful country? It is down to history and people being comfortable with what we have always done.
My humble opinion is that we abolish any law that prevent any boob owner from showing them anywhere. But I’m lazy, so I won’t start a revolution over it.
But this ignores all the cultures where women’s breasts are not considered sexually. I lived in Africa, and it was actually a big adjustment for me, even though the local people’s attitudes were changing due to Western media. 25 years of Canadian upbringing made it hard not to look when women or teenage girls took off their shirts. But that was my problem, not theirs.
And not just Africa. In rural Japan japan, before WWII, women were often topless.
I am not arguing that this happens everywhere, in the same way and is then set in stone forever. People in different places and times had different circumstances. Hence, they could have chosen to handled things differently. Cultural norms can also sometimes change over night. Look at the sexual revolution of the 60-70s for example.
I was trying to answer the question where this norm comes from. Not why this norm isn’t universal.
It seems obvious to me that a culture that have normalized breasts in everyday life, would also consider them less sexual in nature.
Why? You’re disappointed with the explanation? Disagree with it? Or you don’t like its somewhat informal tone? I thought it was well written, enjoyed the information / humor, and can respect the explanation.
Literally the only thing this comment manages to say is that its writer views women as objects, that women exist a status symbol for men, like bro he literally compares women to a gold bar in a glass box what the fuck do you mean hahahahaha. The most discouraging part out of all of this is that people here are agreeing with it.
Humans have evolved, and sexual selection is a big part of evolution in sexual species. Whether his hypothesis is correct or not, it’s not offensive to speculate how things got to where they are now.
You also seem to be making the naturalism fallacy. Just because things are or were a certain way in nature doesn’t mean they ought to be that way in human society.
Evolution doesn’t have a preconceived goal it goes for. There can be pressures of all different kinds. I did not intend to convey that sexual pressure was the sole factor on the evolution of breasts. Clearly they have other functions. I only make the observation that it is a sexual signal for males in the vast majority of mammals. I believe humans are the only mammal with breasts that doesn’t shrink when they are ready, as it were. But I am a proponent of the hypothesis that it was evolved as a trait of sexual secrecy, to confuse males, so the female can attract the favour of more males.
It’s alright to disagree with the premise that there were sexual pressure on the evolution of breasts. You would probably be in the minority in the scientific community on that one though.
For the record; I fancy myself an egalitarianist. I believe in women’s rights. I do not believe slavery is good for any kind of society. I really believe males and females are very similar. Small differences in our physiological makeup. That is all.
Okay this is gonna be the last thing I say on this - a lot of the struggle that women today face comes from the idea that women only exist in relation to something or someone else, like children or a partner. Eg, your role is to start a family, wear makeup and take care of your appearance so that you are perceived as attractive and therefore valued. Making arguments that women have larger breasts as an evolutionary trait because of men wanting to procreate with them is an extension of that sentiment. Whether it’s true or not and to what degree - it doesn’t matter, it doesn’t fit into the conversation and it completely detracts from the point of women being hyper sexualized in today’s culture.
I support you if your say you’re egalitarian or feminist or what have you, but please consider the different perspectives and examine your arguments within the wider context. We are more than just our biology lmao.
Men only exist in relation to women. We’re just talking about the reproductive context here, so of course one sex is described in terms of the other. The same holds vice versa, each sex needs the other in an evolutionary system
We are past the point where any of this matters in modern society, and I completely agree with your points about sexism, feminism, etc. I think you’re just letting a scientific/evolutionary perspective and discussion transfer over and project too much onto the problems you see in society today. However, I think (hope) that many of the people in this thread talking about evolution share your thoughts and feelings about modern society, it’s just, we’re talking about a specific, ancient, evolutionary system here is all. It’s very intently sexist I guess if you think about it. We’re lucky to live in modern times.
This coming from someone with a username derived from a sexist term. Maybe someone who thinks science and history need to bend over backwards not to offend our sensibilities should start with themselves.
Okay this is gonna be the last thing I say on this - a lot of the struggle that women today face comes from the idea that women only exist in relation to something or someone else, like children or a partner.
The thing is, in so many ways we all only exist in relation to each other. So you’re on to something, not necessarily exclusive to sex or gender, but yes that part is hard. And much worse because it also means that others are going to try and shape that relation and the power is barely ever balanced. It does help to realize that not all people are like that, but these things are really knowable, and everyone’s situation is unique.
Eg, your role is to start a family, wear makeup and take care of your appearance so that you are perceived as attractive and therefore valued
Honestly, that part is infuriating to me as well. and I hate what it does to women. My personal feelings about what makes a woman attractive / free are my own, but I find it somewhat offensive how boldly people make assumptions about it and even start to normalize or ostracize others for following standards.
Not sure if we can do about it in general, but I do appreciate people who don’t just bow down to the masses.
Sexual selection pressure is massive in evolutionary systems. You’re forgetting that fitness is an indirect result of what is ultimately sexual selection pressure. A lot of people think it’s fitness first, sex second, but it’s actually the other way around, sexual selection plays a larger part, and is supposed to imply fitness, but doesn’t always. Without sex there is no reproduction, and therefore no mutations. Anyways, just remember, in evolutionary systems, they are not directly selecting for traits, they are selecting traits through the abstraction of sex and sexual selection. Sex is king here. IDK it’s weird but it is what it is.
Sexual selection is a theory thrown around but afaik the work hasn’t been done to show this is the sole cause. Enlarged breasts may have some reason to exist beyond sexual identification - there’s not a lot of mostly bald mammals that walk on two legs so theres not a lot of good opportunities to spot convergence in features.
Ah yes, I remember how the birds of paradise evolved such complicated dance routines and brilliant colours for the sole purpose of self expression. Or the brilliant peacock that evolved a huge unwieldy display just to feel good about themselves
I’m sorry it came of that way. It was not my intention.
The gold bar part is perhaps a bit unfortunate. I was trying to illustrate and emphasise to the reader that doing anything carries a risk and that people of different regions and cultures have made different choices to manage those perceived risks based on their circumstances.
I believe people, more often than not, make choices out of practicality. Morals, religion, politics, fads, all come and go. “Hey, wife, those guys are staring, I know it’s not convenient, but can you cover up” has probably been said by males partners pretty consistently over the years.
The word steal might have been a bad choice too, now that I think about it. Perhaps kidnap would have also worked.
I think a really important part in this is that in a situation where other men are leering at someone’s wife, the better response is to address the behaviour of the men, and not to ask her to cover up, because effectively what this does is shift the responsibility of their bad behaviour onto her. I get what you’re saying that many cultures are patriarchal, but it’s really important to be critical of what we’re raised to believe, and unlearn as much as we can, rather than continuing the cycle.
I agree. I think that is where we are heading. In societies with high quality of life and high standard of eduction, it is already an expectation.
Unfortunately there are places today, that are still somewhat mediaeval.
To clarify; the reason why males might have initially made these requests of their partners is, I reason, insecurity and perhaps fear.
Imagine you live in a society where you can not expect protection from anyone except maybe your own family. You find yourself in that threatening situation. Your choices of what to do about it are limited. From the perspective of both the victim and her husband. If most peoples choice are the same, it might become a norm and part of the culture, eventually. You can imagine how the resulting behaviour would probably have been supported by both sexes. Because they feel safer. Because it’s practical and easy. With time it becomes pointless. But it’s culture. It’s tradition and somehow valued on that merit alone.
If I were to find myself in that situation, today, I might have told my wife “let’s leave”. My choices in that moment are still limited. Of course I can report the incident to authorities and what not, after the fact. That sucks for me. It probably sucked even harder 12k years ago.
I have never found myself in this situation, but I can imagine it. And I think my wife would cover up, not because she wants to, but because it makes her feel safe. That is not great. That is not an argument for bad behaviour. Thankfully we generally feel safe where we live.
Since we are all going; here is my take. Breasts were always sexual in nature. For most species they signal fertility and what part of the cycle the individual is in at the moment. At some point human females evolved to have perpetually inflated breasts. There are a few different theories as to why that happened, but it is beside the point for this discussion. So considering they were evolved to attract or dissuade males, I say they certainly have a sexual function. In addition to this, breasts play a big part in sexual pleasure for the wearer.
Now consider people pairing up in monogamous couples. The male suspects that other males might be motivated to pursue his mate by the visage of his mates nice boobies. He asks his mate to cover them up so he feels more safe in his position. Now hundreds of years pass, and what do you know, it is in grained in the cultures. It’s not really too bad for the women, so they have lived with it, for the sake of peace. Sometimes it is even convenient to be covered. For example in cold weather. I bet there is a correlation between climate and a cultures willingness to have boobs in the open.
Tribes have not only hidden their populations breasts, they have been known to hide their women all together, so the neighbouring tribes don’t steal them. I feel that this is a bit similar. Put a gold bar in a glass display long enough, and someone will try to take it. Everything carries risk. If your society isn’t good at maintaining law, then it’s a bad idea to display the gold bar. In some places it might not be an issue at all. All women could go around topless as well, but the risk that they are approached by an aspiring male will probably be slightly increased.
So why do it now, in my amazing, functioning, egalitarian and lawful country? It is down to history and people being comfortable with what we have always done.
My humble opinion is that we abolish any law that prevent any boob owner from showing them anywhere. But I’m lazy, so I won’t start a revolution over it.
But this ignores all the cultures where women’s breasts are not considered sexually. I lived in Africa, and it was actually a big adjustment for me, even though the local people’s attitudes were changing due to Western media. 25 years of Canadian upbringing made it hard not to look when women or teenage girls took off their shirts. But that was my problem, not theirs.
And not just Africa. In rural Japan japan, before WWII, women were often topless.
I am not arguing that this happens everywhere, in the same way and is then set in stone forever. People in different places and times had different circumstances. Hence, they could have chosen to handled things differently. Cultural norms can also sometimes change over night. Look at the sexual revolution of the 60-70s for example.
I was trying to answer the question where this norm comes from. Not why this norm isn’t universal.
It seems obvious to me that a culture that have normalized breasts in everyday life, would also consider them less sexual in nature.
I’m in physical pain reading this
Why? You’re disappointed with the explanation? Disagree with it? Or you don’t like its somewhat informal tone? I thought it was well written, enjoyed the information / humor, and can respect the explanation.
Literally the only thing this comment manages to say is that its writer views women as objects, that women exist a status symbol for men, like bro he literally compares women to a gold bar in a glass box what the fuck do you mean hahahahaha. The most discouraging part out of all of this is that people here are agreeing with it.
He’s saying that HISTORICALLY women were viewed as such. That’s his guess at what logic prehistoric humans went through, not his own.
Are we really out here ignoring the fact that mans said that breasts were evolved for men??? Like come on, don’t make excuses for this guy
Humans have evolved, and sexual selection is a big part of evolution in sexual species. Whether his hypothesis is correct or not, it’s not offensive to speculate how things got to where they are now.
You also seem to be making the naturalism fallacy. Just because things are or were a certain way in nature doesn’t mean they ought to be that way in human society.
That’s not what they said though
Evolution doesn’t have a preconceived goal it goes for. There can be pressures of all different kinds. I did not intend to convey that sexual pressure was the sole factor on the evolution of breasts. Clearly they have other functions. I only make the observation that it is a sexual signal for males in the vast majority of mammals. I believe humans are the only mammal with breasts that doesn’t shrink when they are ready, as it were. But I am a proponent of the hypothesis that it was evolved as a trait of sexual secrecy, to confuse males, so the female can attract the favour of more males.
It’s alright to disagree with the premise that there were sexual pressure on the evolution of breasts. You would probably be in the minority in the scientific community on that one though.
For the record; I fancy myself an egalitarianist. I believe in women’s rights. I do not believe slavery is good for any kind of society. I really believe males and females are very similar. Small differences in our physiological makeup. That is all.
Okay this is gonna be the last thing I say on this - a lot of the struggle that women today face comes from the idea that women only exist in relation to something or someone else, like children or a partner. Eg, your role is to start a family, wear makeup and take care of your appearance so that you are perceived as attractive and therefore valued. Making arguments that women have larger breasts as an evolutionary trait because of men wanting to procreate with them is an extension of that sentiment. Whether it’s true or not and to what degree - it doesn’t matter, it doesn’t fit into the conversation and it completely detracts from the point of women being hyper sexualized in today’s culture.
I support you if your say you’re egalitarian or feminist or what have you, but please consider the different perspectives and examine your arguments within the wider context. We are more than just our biology lmao.
Men only exist in relation to women. We’re just talking about the reproductive context here, so of course one sex is described in terms of the other. The same holds vice versa, each sex needs the other in an evolutionary system
We are past the point where any of this matters in modern society, and I completely agree with your points about sexism, feminism, etc. I think you’re just letting a scientific/evolutionary perspective and discussion transfer over and project too much onto the problems you see in society today. However, I think (hope) that many of the people in this thread talking about evolution share your thoughts and feelings about modern society, it’s just, we’re talking about a specific, ancient, evolutionary system here is all. It’s very intently sexist I guess if you think about it. We’re lucky to live in modern times.
This coming from someone with a username derived from a sexist term. Maybe someone who thinks science and history need to bend over backwards not to offend our sensibilities should start with themselves.
The thing is, in so many ways we all only exist in relation to each other. So you’re on to something, not necessarily exclusive to sex or gender, but yes that part is hard. And much worse because it also means that others are going to try and shape that relation and the power is barely ever balanced. It does help to realize that not all people are like that, but these things are really knowable, and everyone’s situation is unique.
Honestly, that part is infuriating to me as well. and I hate what it does to women. My personal feelings about what makes a woman attractive / free are my own, but I find it somewhat offensive how boldly people make assumptions about it and even start to normalize or ostracize others for following standards.
Not sure if we can do about it in general, but I do appreciate people who don’t just bow down to the masses.
Sexual selection pressure is massive in evolutionary systems. You’re forgetting that fitness is an indirect result of what is ultimately sexual selection pressure. A lot of people think it’s fitness first, sex second, but it’s actually the other way around, sexual selection plays a larger part, and is supposed to imply fitness, but doesn’t always. Without sex there is no reproduction, and therefore no mutations. Anyways, just remember, in evolutionary systems, they are not directly selecting for traits, they are selecting traits through the abstraction of sex and sexual selection. Sex is king here. IDK it’s weird but it is what it is.
Sexual selection is a theory thrown around but afaik the work hasn’t been done to show this is the sole cause. Enlarged breasts may have some reason to exist beyond sexual identification - there’s not a lot of mostly bald mammals that walk on two legs so theres not a lot of good opportunities to spot convergence in features.
sure but why is it relevant? OP isn’t saying that it is the sole cause.
careful with the straw, you might accidently build a straw man out of it :)
Ah yes, I remember how the birds of paradise evolved such complicated dance routines and brilliant colours for the sole purpose of self expression. Or the brilliant peacock that evolved a huge unwieldy display just to feel good about themselves
Hysterika, i think that may have hit the nail
deleted by creator
I’m blown away that you’ve managed to be offended by this.
I’m sorry it came of that way. It was not my intention. The gold bar part is perhaps a bit unfortunate. I was trying to illustrate and emphasise to the reader that doing anything carries a risk and that people of different regions and cultures have made different choices to manage those perceived risks based on their circumstances.
I believe people, more often than not, make choices out of practicality. Morals, religion, politics, fads, all come and go. “Hey, wife, those guys are staring, I know it’s not convenient, but can you cover up” has probably been said by males partners pretty consistently over the years.
The word steal might have been a bad choice too, now that I think about it. Perhaps kidnap would have also worked.
I think a really important part in this is that in a situation where other men are leering at someone’s wife, the better response is to address the behaviour of the men, and not to ask her to cover up, because effectively what this does is shift the responsibility of their bad behaviour onto her. I get what you’re saying that many cultures are patriarchal, but it’s really important to be critical of what we’re raised to believe, and unlearn as much as we can, rather than continuing the cycle.
I agree. I think that is where we are heading. In societies with high quality of life and high standard of eduction, it is already an expectation. Unfortunately there are places today, that are still somewhat mediaeval.
To clarify; the reason why males might have initially made these requests of their partners is, I reason, insecurity and perhaps fear. Imagine you live in a society where you can not expect protection from anyone except maybe your own family. You find yourself in that threatening situation. Your choices of what to do about it are limited. From the perspective of both the victim and her husband. If most peoples choice are the same, it might become a norm and part of the culture, eventually. You can imagine how the resulting behaviour would probably have been supported by both sexes. Because they feel safer. Because it’s practical and easy. With time it becomes pointless. But it’s culture. It’s tradition and somehow valued on that merit alone.
If I were to find myself in that situation, today, I might have told my wife “let’s leave”. My choices in that moment are still limited. Of course I can report the incident to authorities and what not, after the fact. That sucks for me. It probably sucked even harder 12k years ago.
I have never found myself in this situation, but I can imagine it. And I think my wife would cover up, not because she wants to, but because it makes her feel safe. That is not great. That is not an argument for bad behaviour. Thankfully we generally feel safe where we live.
deleted by creator
I think any Lemmy users who would downvote you for this should take some time and look inward.
Nomen est omen