No, the community needs to cyber bully them off the platform. They need to feel rejection for their words, not censorship. Censorship lets them frame themselves as the victim as they seek out a smaller echo chamber on the fringes. They need to learn their words will turn the community against them

We still have to live with them. We can’t ignore them or silence them - we have to correct them

Then you should definitely go vegan. A vegan diet comes with the least amount of plant deaths and plant suffering, since lifestock is being fed with billions of individual plants before being slaughtered. You can save all of them.

Sounds like there is still some room for improvement in terms of “eating as sustainably as they can” then.

What is your goal, and what are your methods to get there?

You genuinely asking yourself that means far more to me than winning some Internet argument. Our goals are mostly aligned - I want you and your movement to succeed. But your methods push our shared goals further away.

It’s frustrating.

Ok, I’ll draw the through line for you

Meme about bees being animals or not, to know if honey fit the rules for veganism. No discussions about the well being of bees, the environmental impact of beekeeping, or anything else was present. Only if it followed a rule or not

I find this ridiculous - it’s lost the plot. Being vegan isn’t some cosmic good - the farming industry is horrible in numerous ways, but bees cannot be battery farmed.

Industrial honey production requires large untamed fields of wildflowers, which I consider good. Bees are good pollinators, I consider them good. Bees are dying out due to unrelated human activity, which is bad. Honey production requires more bees, and harming the delicate insects is disincentivized by nature - the well being of the bees is required for honey production

I then made it clear I was operating under my own moral framework, which from what I know of beekeeping (and I could be missing information), judges beekeeping as a good thing

I then alluded to my own moral framework, which recognizes that to live, the suffering of life is required. We are animals, and while we can minimize the suffering, we can’t live without it. Damage to the environment causes more suffering to life than anything else, so it’s the priority

Then you asked if I was already vegan, I said no. I explained that I eat little animal products, ethically sourced when practical. You took that opportunity to say I should do more - but by eating meat rarely I reduce the meat consumption of others easily, doing far more to further what should be our shared goals than I ever could individually

I don’t need or want praise for my eating habits - I want my habits to spread. I want as many people to do what they can when they can - that’s all I ask of others, and that messaging works. I’ll tell them it saves money if that’s their concern, I’ll tell them of the horrors of the meat industry in passing, I’ll tell them about how obesity is unnatural and result of highly processed foods, or the health implications. I tell them what will resonate with them, without judgement.

I know my goals, and I’m using the best methods I have available to spread them. I’m not confused at all - I know my goals, I’m conscious of my choices. I’m deliberate in my words and actions.

Our goals are mostly aligned, and yet I believe your messaging undermines mine. Our goals require collective action. You demand more of me under your moral framework, yet I feel no understanding from you, you’ve offered no new information, only judgement. Why is that?

This is why I find it confused.

I just told you how I’m doing what I can, and having great success convincing others to do the same

I told you I don’t subscribe to your moral system

You’ve entirely ignored most of what I’ve said and failed to engage me in any area where we have common ground. Instead, you attacked me for not doing more under your own value system

You’re working at cross purposes to your goals… You’re a hardliner. This approach is why some of my family gatherings have a vegan and a “normal” option for foods that taste basically the same. This is why I can’t reach some of my family members on this topic - they were attacked and talked down to for their eating habits, now it’s about winning and losing for them

Veganism is not the highest ethics of eating habits. The correct answer to my concern for the suffering of plants was a fruititarian diet… But it isn’t higher in my own value system, due to the transport involved

Doing more for me means growing my own food, and maybe keeping chickens. Maybe hunting the occasional deer. It means reintegrating with the ecosystem… But I’m not able to do that yet

Also, voting with your wallet is a lie to keep people complacent. Systematic issues must be solved systematically - already there’re huge subsidies for the meat industry to keep prices down and for big agro to over produce certain crops. This can only be changed through collective action

So if you don’t want me to see you as confused, ask yourself “what are my goals?” and “am I using the best methods available to me to meet my goals?”

There are people basically immune to caffeine. There are extreme caffeine addicts. I can drink two pots myself, and I’m extremely sensitive to caffeine

The metaphor works because it doesn’t matter how much coffee you drink - it matters how fast you drink it. And that’s a limit set by the business - the size of the cups and how quickly they’re refilled

At this point, I feel like you’re not even trying to understand what I’m saying…

No, I just eat very little meat. Most of my meals are rice and beans with whatever veggies I have on hand mixed in, preferably locally grown. I’ll also add in eggs sometimes, which unfortunately don’t come from a local source because I don’t have one anymore

And occasionally I go out for a burger or sushi, but I do it rarely and consciously. I enjoy it even more because of that And by framing it this way, I’ve convinced most of my friends and family to cut back and think more about their choices.

I don’t subscribe to the vegan moral system, I find it often inconsistent and confused. Like here… What’s best for the bees? What’s best for the ecosystem? What’s best for the humans?

Wozniak is probably the most famous example. He recognized the corrupting nature of money, decided he had enough, and stopped to live in comfort and occasionally work towards causes he finds important

Lots of people have done the same… But if they’re rich and still chasing after money? They’ll never stop

No, I can’t save them. Because systematic problems cannot be solved through individual action

That being said, it’s bold of you to assume someone conscious of the suffering of plants isn’t eating as sustainably as they can with the choices they have available

Also, this is about honey - honey production encourages freely planting wild fields rather than mono crops, and it discourages killing the bees. I don’t share your moral system, but in mine this is about as good as it gets

You just have to work in legal costs to anything you do. Call it an asshole tax

It seems so silly to me. Do plants not feel pain?

They do. I learned it first hand… You can call it stress if you like, but plants most certainly experience suffering

Like coffee. It might cost them 1¢ a pot… It might cost them $1200 up front and $60 a month for their coffee makers

I hate group chats. I engage with people one on one - I can understand one, maybe two persons…

But people? Fuck that. Persons are complex, people are insane

But I don’t remember my password…I only used it long enough to reserve my name

That would be pretty badass, ngl

I find it hilarious that my personal AI, that can run on even a budget gaming PC, is far more reliable than most of these corporate ones 100x the size

You can do an extraction on poppy seeds, but the bulbs leak a tarlike substance when cut that is already plenty concentrated

I don’t want to domesticate the animals - it’s cruel because we can barely keep the ones we have mentally healthy

I just want animal friends. I don’t need to own them, they don’t need to live with me, but I want them to come visit for pets and the occasional treat

And I could do it too… I’m very good at getting the trust of animals. You just have to establish a common language and show yourself to be trustworthy over time. But that requires being able to live somewhere with a healthy ecosystem…

Well, I think most of them are trying to get the government to split the bill, which I don’t love but I could live with. If they get small scale nuclear working, we might finally actually reduce fossil fuel usage for once

I just feel like the other shoe is about to drop. Are they going to push to run them themselves, with minimal oversight? Do billionaires want to buy privately owned nuclear reactors for their bunkers?

I don’t know how this is going to turn bad, I just have a bad feeling

I couldn’t get past the title.

Good remakes are good, they must bring not only graphics, but game mechanics and balance, up to date. They must be better than the original in all aspects, or they lose out to nostalgia

Bad remakes are bad, and most remakes in this era are bad

It’s not about remakes, it’s about quality

Yeah… But why is this being pushed so hard? When the billionaire owned media pushes a message this hard, I can’t help but look for the terrible consequences I’m missing