You may have noticed a distinct lack of return2ozma. This is due to their admitting, in a public comment, that their engagement here is in bad faith:
I’m sure there will be questions, let me see if I can address the most obvious ones:
- Can I still post negative stuff about Biden?
Absolutely! We have zero interest in running an echo chamber. However, if ALL you’re posting is negative, you may want to re-think your priorities. You get out of the world what you put into it and all that.
- Why now?
Presumption of innocence. It may be my own fault, but I do try to think the best of people, and even though they were posting negative articles, they weren’t necessarily WRONG. Biden’s poll numbers, particularly in minority demographics ARE in the shitter. They are starting to get better, but he still has a hell of a hill to climb.
- Why a 30 day temp ban and not a permanent ban?
The articles return2ozma shared weren’t bad, faked, or from some wing-nut bias site like “beforeitsnews.com”, they were legitimate articles from established and respected news agencies, pointing out the valid problems Biden faces.
The problem was ONLY posting the negatives, over and over and then openly admitting that dishonest enagement is their purpose.
Had they all been bullshit articles? It would not have taken anywhere near this much time to lay the ban and it would have been permanent.
30 days seems enough time for them to re-think their strategery and come back to engage honestly.
Good move, they were a clown and pointing out that they were arguing entirely in bad faith is correct. They did it under the guise of being far-leftist, but as a far-leftist myself, I have a hard time believing it was for anything other than pissing people off. Hopefully they can go practice being happy instead of doom-posting on niche Internet forums.
I have a hard time believing it was for anything other than pissing people off.
this is why I blocked them. Also, kinda felt I didn’t want to be seeing his crap. Biden is an awful candidate but R20 ain’t helping matters.
Dude thank God
I won’t pretend to know what the fully correct decision on stuff like this is; it’s definitely complex bordering on impossible (among other reasons because I actually think it’s good to have vocal easily-identifiable bad-faith accounts, because they tee up great conversations even if the original intent behind the post wasn’t good and people are annoyed by it).
But that being said it seems crazy that some of these accounts are still allowed to post here freely, given what was in my view some pretty ironclad indication that they’re not posting in good faith.
pointing out the valid problems Biden faces
So this touches on one of my key least favorite things about return2ozma – I’d actually go well beyond what you saw in that one comment from him, and say that at this point, he’s clearly not just pointing out valid problems. Posting negative polls is one thing, mostly completely fine. Everyone’s got their viewpoint and allowed to post whatever view they want. But he’ll also post specific assertions about Biden that objectively aren’t true (marijuana policy being a good example), and then continue posting them after it’s shown to him that they’re not true – all the while swearing that he’s trying to help, just bringing up all this negative information because he really wants the Democrats to win, and so is giving constructive criticism so they can change course.
IDK man. That to me is very clear indication that he’s lying about what he’s trying to do, and being deliberately dishonest with what he posts. I think the posts I’m referring to were in some meme sub, not here, so maybe what you’re saying about the content he posts specifically in !politics@lemmy.world coming technically from reputable sources is a valid counter argument. IDK. Maybe. But to me, avowing “I am trying to help Biden” while posting objectively false criticism of him, and not really pretending it’s any other way than that, is actually worse by quite a lot than avowing “I am here to post negative information about Biden.” (not that that latter one is good…)
Like I say I’m not trying to weigh in on what the right answer is (either with ozma or the other similar accounts), because I don’t really see a good right answer. Just tossing in my observations as a person who doesn’t have to take the responsibility of trying to figure out how to handle it.
(@return2ozma@lemmy.world - I feel a little unfair about posting this in a forum where you aren’t allowed in to defend yourself; if you want to create a thread anywhere else with any response you want to make, I’ll link to it from here so you can give your side of anything where you feel I’ve been inaccurate / unfair.)
My take is the dude just filled the board with unrelenting misery. I’m happy for the occasional reminder that Biden could be doing better. I think he’s flat wrong on certain policies. But oddly enough I still get that point of view without R2O, while enjoying my time here a lot more.
There’s that, too, yes.
God, the unrelenting misery is killing me in this platform. I think the thing I’m most sick and tired of more than anything else is the constant stream of The Usual Suspects butting in with “But what about Gaza?!” on Every. Single. Post.
Post an article about Biden proposing a ceasefire agreement in the war? Complain about Biden giving support to Israel!
Post an article about Biden celebrating pride month? Complain about Biden funding Israel!
Article about Biden forgiving another batch of student loans? “BUt Biden supports israel!”
Article about Trump getting convicted of felonies? “But Biden! Gaza! Israel!”
Article about a small town library fighting LGBTQ+ book bans? “GAZA! ISRAEL! BIDEN! BAD”
Article about a goddamn random topic completely unrelated to Biden, Trump, Israel, politics, or the US at all? “GENOCIIIIIIIIIIDE!”
It’s at the point where I’ve cut back on Lemmy usage entirely because every comment thread I click on is like navigating a fucking minefield of misery. Nothing good can ever happen, no policy changes can ever be celebrated, no events can be remarked upon, without someone butting in with a reminder that Genocide Mother-Fucking Joe is personally shoveling coal into the palestinian child incinerator. No post can ever leave you with any emotion other than the thin veil of doomerism settling upon your shoulders, a pall of depression casting itself over the tragedy of the world, and a sense that modern society is an Aristocrats joke that has long since crossed the line from “horrifying” to “funny,” then back to “horrifying,” then back to “funny,” before settling itself so firmly in “horrifying” that the audience is casting nervous glances and hoping that someone else is the first to call the police.
Man, the first thing I did when I joined Lemmy was to develop a policy of blocking anyone that didn’t think I would enjoy seeing or interacting with. They didn’t have to do anything wrong per se, but if I thought they argued in bad faith or jumped to ad hominem attacks or whatever, I’d block them.
I was worried at first. Some of them were prolific, and I didn’t want this place to feel empty. But I’ve found that I’m spending less time arguing with people who only want to piss me off gives me more time to interact with more thoughtful folks. The responses in turn encourage them to post more. So by blocking people I don’t like and encouraging people I do, I think that helps to make the community better as a whole, not even just for me.
Life is too short. I come here to interact with people I enjoy. We don’t have to agree, it just has to not be someone who inspires the thought, “not this motherfucker again.” Try it. It makes Lemmy so much better.
Good luck, my friend.
Well said. For each article, they’d consistently select the source with the most inflammatory headline and perspective and post it in several places at once, ensuring a clearly negative perception of Biden for casual browsers.
There’s no shortage of criticism of Biden on Lemmy. We should all want the most factual articles posted to support well-informed discussions of his actions.
He admitted to me, after I accused him, that he searches a news aggregator for “Biden” daily and posts the negative stuff he sees. I believe he said it was to hold dems accountable or something. That exchange was maybe a month or two back and might have been either here or on !news@lemmy.world
If I do a search for puppy mills every day and only post the negative things, is that bad faith?
Let’s go with that example. If you posted multiple times per day about puppy mills on a community about animals, that would be a bit much. I post multiple posts about Trump per day but its generally reflective of overall media coverage. I just go to my preferred sources and browse their home pages for news that seems interesting. I don’t seek out anything in particular.
If you’re posting to Aww? Absolutely.
Ok, so if Biden is a puppy mill, is Trump the kill shelter?
And then this guy is PETA, working at kill shelters while posting negative stuff about puppy mills?
If your goal is to fuel a distorted view about the competing candidates then that is bad faith.
I’d love to one day, see just ONE of you people offer up a good argument that’s relevant to the topic.
I think I agree more with the spam angle than the “only bad news” angle. As others have said it’s fine to have a viewpoint and mainly share articles in line with that viewpoint. However doing it many times per day, every day, when the number of posts here is limited anyway, does impact the community.
In any case, the main thing is to be consistent and ideally make whatever the rule is very clear. And I would say this should be turned into an explicit rule or explanation under an existing rule.
Personally I just read what I want to, and if it seems bad faith, downvote and move on.
i agree, jordanlund is opening themselves up for extra scrutiny with this.
spam and displaying signs of getting off on angering users (trolling) is absolutely a valid and nonpartisan reason for a ban. but as soon as the mods start citing actual politics (outside of clear examples of misinfo, which is not in play here) it gets dicey and accusations of bias pile up fast, which is exactly what we are seeing play out right in these comments.
I blocked him quite a while ago.
Poll after poll after poll were filling up my feed at one point.
Fuck that shit. You sir, may fuck off.
But he didn’t fuck off. You did.
Blocking bad faith people only cedes ground to them.
Oh please. You are here to consume content, as a leisure activity. There’s no obligation to hold your nose for some standard of witness or something.
It’s a discussion forum. The ENTIRE POINT is to discuss things.
Completely agree, my point is you are under no obligation to stay, to read things on a certain topic, to read things from a certain author
Not an obligation, but a responsibility.
Absolutely not.
None of this matters, don’t put Lemmy on a pedestal.
It matters. Forums are battlegrounds of ideas.
Victim blaming.
Leave all that ground stuff to the admins or mods.
On the internet, with infinite amounts of everything, it’s okay to pick one’s battles.
What? No, there’s not infinite everything, what a self centered viewpoint.
If I block every Trump supporter I see, then I no longer see Trump supporters, then I get a false idea of how little support Trump has.
Meanwhile Trump supporters keep spreading their bullshit unchecked.
This is a community, not a television. You’re not just a consumer, you’re helping to shape the discussions. You can’t just hide away every time you see someone say something you don’t like.
Oh idealism.
I used to be like you.
I hope you succeed, friend.
Good luck.
Extremely helpful comment, thanks for your contribution.
It’s not idealism, it’s having a fucking spine. If you can’t handle reality, get therapy. Otherwise, roll up your sleeves and get to work.
lol ok!
I can handle reality just fine. And the internet (gasp!) is not reality.
Don’t get so flustered. It’s not good for the blood pressure.
K
honestly, if nobody interacted with R2O, do you really think he’d continue spamming?
The ground we’re talking about is our time and thoughts.
I’m normally not somebody that’ll block a person. but… I made an exception for R2O.
Oh I block people out of my life all the time. Fuck that noise.
honestly, if nobody interacted with R2O, do you really think he’d continue spamming?
Your question is unanswerable because it relies on a false assumption.
That’s interesting. Care to explain?
I propose a hypothetical- that we all ignore a guy. The only assumption that I’m making is whatever his purpose is, it requires engagement.
If nobody engages, that account at least, goes away. Either R2O is here to troll, or to push a narrative or is in some other way a bad actor. All of that requires engagement.
I propose a hypothetical- that we all ignore a guy.
My point is that your hypothetical is bullshit because it literally never happens. It’s the same reason boycotts are bullshit: the amount of cooperation and participation they require is fundamentally contrary to human nature.
Because of that, there’s no point in indulging in the rest of your thought experiment.
Boycotts are not bullshit.
Cite one that’s actually worked.
Edit: to be clear, I’m not saying a person shouldn’t engage in a boycott on moral grounds (in contrast to my stance on the use of the block button, as explained in another comment – this is an aspect where those two actions differ). What I’m saying is that we shouldn’t have any illusions about boycotts’ actual effectiveness or delude ourselves into thinking that boycotting is somehow a replacement for proper government regulation, because it’s not.
please don’t take this as me trolling. But…
Because of that, there’s no point in indulging in the rest of your thought experiment.
Well then. You’re free to indulge in the block button. Cuz that’s exactly what it’s there for.
Further, it doesn’t take a lot of people blocking him to remove the value in posting. there’s a diminished return the less engagement he gets. Unless he’s just a bot spamming shit everywhere, somebody is behind that account and is wasting time and energy on it. They’re going to find something else, somewhere else, or some other way, to spread their crap when they stop getting sufficient engagement.
I blocked him simply because I found myself recognizing his name and scrolling past. at that point, it’s just simpler to actually block a person.
Well then. You’re free to indulge in the block button. Cuz that’s exactly what it’s there for.
No, fuck that. This is a platform for discussion – rebutting arguments instead of sticking your fingers in your ears is the entire point of being here. Why are you trying to discourage that?
Frankly, I consider the block button harmful: if a user is a problem, then they are a problem for everyone and mod intervention, as we’re discussing here, is the correct solution. The block button never is.
Normally I’m not one to even entertain the thought of commenting on a political thread, but I feel it would be disingenuous to click the button without any feedback in this case. This decision leaves me with a large enough lack of confidence in the future moderation of this community(especially given we’re in an election year) such that I can’t in good faith leave it on my feed and I will be blocking this comm after this comment.
While I agree that Ozma deserved a ban for spam, the justification used for this is frankly appalling. Misrepresentation of bias as bad-faith, especially with the admission that largely good sources were used is unacceptable.
I’m ok with this, it was borderline spam with how many articles they managed to find and post all on the same theme.
Unsurprising to see the usual suspects agitating on this issue in the comments section.
I honestly don’t know how I feel about this, other than that a temp ban is better than a perma-ban. Ozma is annoying as shit, but that’s not a strong admittance of bad faith, even if it’s obvious by his posting to anyone with functioning eyes. At the same time, he does nothing but continuously post this dreck, and a community necessarily must trim bad-faith actors to maintain itself. Otherwise you end up with a shithole like 4chan.
I don’t know. I’m glad it’s not my call.
It’s tough you know? I can’t tell you how many times I looked at reports and gave them the benefit of doubt, then hit this one and was like “Ok, yup, it’s time.”
Looking at the coments here there’s lots on both sides, folks who are like “yeah, I blocked him ages ago!” to “how dare you!”
FWIW, I’ve been in touch with them in PMs, there’s no hard feelings on either side, we’ll see how it shakes out when they’re back.
Mostly right there with you. It’s disturbing to see mods just publicly admitting their process is capricious and wack expecting to be congratulated and lauded for openness.
I never thought I’d be posting AMAB next to a lib.
[if ALL you’re posting is negative, you may want to re-think your priorities. ]
It’s okay to do that about a specific politician if that is your true opinion. However, it does seem like this person was arguing in bad faith by admitting he is aware things are not as bad as his posts seem.
by admitting he is aware things are not as bad as his posts seem.
Let’s do a little mental exercise. What does this next line imply?
Both good and bad news about Trump is out there. I prefer to share the bad news
The only ones arguing in bad are the ones completely twisting what he said to find an implication that does not exist and accuse him of it.
The irony of someone constantly being banned from here for misinformation, here to defend an admitted propagandist.
Weren’t you just accusing this community of supporting Israel in another post somewhere? Ahh yes, here it is:
You should know /politics and /news ban anyone critical of israel and Lemmy.world is ran by Zionists.
Wasn’t that you?
As I recall, you said you weren’t posting here anymore.
Amazing you managed to not respond to a single argument and went for ad hominems and proving my point.
Nothing here is ad hominem if it’s true. You HAVE been banned for misinformation, you ARE defending OP
There is no argument to respond to as you’ve not made one.
I am unsure why you are appealing to authority in a post questioning said authority.
If you have nothing but ad-hominems I have nothing to respond to anymore.
Point out the ad hominem for me please.
To a certain kind of person, saying they’re wrong is a personal attack.
Oh Linkerbaan, are you really calling out people for not responding to your argument? You, of all people?
Your primary mo is to go in every thread and screech “Zionist” before anyone dares question your posts or comments and you want to talk about ad hominem? Cute.
Let’s do a little mental exercise. What does this next line imply?
Both good and bad news about Trump is out there. I prefer to share the bad news
It implies you are arguing in bad faith. Doesn’t matter whether you are talking about Joe Biden of Convicted Felon and Sex Offender Treason Trump.
That’s what you call “bad faith engagement”?
Really?
The shitlib push to get everybody to snort your toxic and dangerous fallacious positivity in unison is starting to get really, really overt.
So…. Someone saying their entire purpose is to share only the negative about Biden wasn’t overt enough?
Seems overt bias is fine with you if it favors your agenda.
share only the negative about Biden
Pretending that there can be anything positive about liberalism (or it’s myriad servants - like Biden) is outright lying, liberal.
I’d say we’ve been handling you liberals with kid gloves up until now.
That is some quality rage-bait lmao. It’s like a caricature of someone endlessly pumping themselves with Fox News, filled with a “you won because we let you” arrogance.
pumping themselves with Fox News
You don’t even know what liberalism is, do you, liberal?
Do tell… before today, has it actually ever occured to you that liberalism happens to be it’s very own ideology?
Did you know that (so-called) “conservatism” isn’t, because, in reality, “conservatism” is just liberalism with extra hysterics?
No? Yes?
Liberalism is it’s own ideology. Conservatism isn’t because it’s just leberalism with extra hysterics.
Like… The conservatives cry more? They’re more emotional? I’m not sure what you’re trying to say.
And I never said that I was a liberal. I just think you sound like a twat.
I’m not sure what you’re trying to say.
In other words… you need to have your own ideology explained to you, because you have never actually given your ideology a second thought.
You never even chose it.
And I never said that I was a liberal.
And? How does that affect the fact that you’re a liberal, liberal?
Confidently saying something like that clearly illustrates the problem with leftism, lefty. You people have no concept of how nuance works or even what it means.
Confidently saying something like that clearly illustrates the problem with liberalism, liberal. You people have no use for nuance except as something to hide behind.
Dude, your entire post/comment history reads like a cautionary tale on how not to come off as the “ackshually” meme guy.
Side note- calling liberals “liberal” isn’t the insult you think it is.
And lastly… nuance isn’t a thing to hide behind. It’s just… a thing. You see, the world and everthing in it- exists within a grey area called “reality.” This is ironically where a lot of ignorant people stage their ideology of “everthing is either black-and-white/everyone is either with us, or against us” from.
calling liberals “liberal” isn’t the insult you think it is.
You mean… just like the terms fascist, white supremacist and colonialist weren’t insults once? They sure are now, aren’t they?
And lastly… nuance isn’t a thing to hide behind.
Then stop hiding behind it, liberal. Defend your ideology… if you can.
Okay, since you’ve basically admitted to using the term “liberal” as an insult, I’ve nothing to say to you. Because circumventing the “no personal attacks” rule by calling people “liberals” as a derogatory is about as bad faith as it gets.
You’re the conversational equivalent of a Trump supporter.
Yeah, I’m sorta startled that admitting to wanting to highlight negative truths over cheering for someone is considered bad faith. Bad faith is misrepresenting an issue, not selectively posting reputable sources. This is one mod decision that I think is wrong and bad.
It’s going to get worse and worse as November comes around. The liberal hysterics is pretty similar to 2016 - be prepared for more of the same.
Removed by mod
To me this is not clearly explained in the rules. While I didn’t like the content in question, this seems overly heavy-handed for the situation.
I think it’s the right move, but I agree that it should be spelled out in the rules.
I didn’t notice, but that’s because I noticed the trend in thier posts awhile ago & decided to block them.
I checked my block list and already had this covered. I don’t need that kind of shit in my life. But good on you for making it a better place for everyone. I 100% support banning folks just to make a board less miserable to visit. Both sides is good. Agenda is bad.
Playing devil’s advocate here… I exclusively post news from sources on the left to the center. Doesn’t that mean I more or less have an agenda?
I think the issue is more so the specificity and the precision in their posts always being about one person.
See, I’m not interested in Devil’s advocacy. The board was overwhelmed by negativity that just made me want to not come here at all. When I blocked them, this became a better place to hang out immediately.
I don’t care about the justification (either of the moderation or how I enjoy the board). All the rules and everything is just an attempt to codify how to keep the place enjoyable and useful. If someone makes the place less enjoyable or useful, get rid of them. I don’t have room in my life to engage with people or content that just makes me want to be elsewhere.
It’s super easy for me to agree when I already had the dude blocked, of course. If there was a voice I liked hearing from, I’m sure I’d feel this is all very dictatorial. But I don’t. I think that person is insufferable and people coming to the board for the first time are more likely to stay without their posts being here. And that’s plenty of justification for me.
Edit: snipped a paragraph that was just rambling and redundant.
God damn this was way longer and more effort than I wanted to put into this. Guaranteed autocorrect has fucked up a bunch of things I’ll need to edit if I even catch them.
Anyway, tldr: fuck that guy and glad riddance. That was an autocorrect failure but I like it so I’m leaving it.
shit, at least you admit you don’t care because you don’t like them.
Everyone else is trying to pretend different
Other people are allowed their reasons. They don’t have to secretly feel the same way I do. I speak for exactly one person - me.
I already had this person blocked because I felt they contributed negatively to the experience of being here. That’s a subjective call, but if the mod happens to agree, I want him to know he has my full support in his efforts to make this a nice place to visit for anyone who doesn’t like being around insufferable assholes. Those are my kind of people. I don’t personally need any rules cited or clarified, but mine isn’t the only perspective.
It’s really just the bad faith part that matters the most. Pushing your opinion is fine if you’re honest with what your position is
What do you suppose ozma’s actual opinion was, then?
You don’t understand propaganda do you?
When centrists can’t answer a question, they get condescending.
Was ozma not?
I think they were perfectly honest about their feelings
Do you think this ban is fairly nonpartisan?
Would you also ban a user that only posts negative Trump stories and admits to that?
I agree r2o was getting to be a bit much, and the temp ban seems appropriate, but I’d want to see a policy like this applied fairly and evenly.
If someone pumped the gas and was posting dozens and dozens of pro or anti Trump stuff? Yeah, I think I’d do the same.
We did have quite a few pro-Trump posts as he was winning primaries, which made logical sense. I’m also planning on megathreads in July and August for both conventions.
You should make spamming too many articles within a certain X time a rule then. I think it needs to be more objective. This is getting into partisan territory.
We did end up doing that in World News when one user dominated the front page by posting 19 articles at once(!)
I don’t think Ozma quite hit that level, and it wasn’t really the volume that was the issue, it was the desire to be continually, relentlessly, negative.
Bet you I would pretty much hate the vast majority of that user’s comments
Also I don’t want to see spam
With that context set, why am I posting?
Evaluating only the screenshot and nothing else, the struck text appeared inaccurate. Sharing my feedback to help hone practices going forward.
