Arizona toddler rescued after getting trapped in a Tesla with a dead battery
www.theverge.com
Firefighters had to use an ax to smash through the window.
    • CosmoNova@lemmy.worldEnglish
      1262·
      6 months ago

      But how do you integrate a subscription fee into analog doors? You can‘t enshitify that!!

      • Toes♀@ani.socialEnglish
        291·
        6 months ago

        Oh that’s easy, just make it a one time release switch. You gotta replace the door battery after using it.

        • jubilationtcornpone@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
          13·
          6 months ago

          Door opener fluid. It’s a canister of fluid that you have to pump into the door to open it in an emergency. Then you get a replacement canister from the dealer for $150. I recently found out that that’s what passes for a “spare tire” anymore.

          • nilloc@discuss.tchncs.deEnglish
            7·
            6 months ago

            They do they both for cost and for weight savings to try and hit CAFE standard while only selling oversized CUVs.

            Make small cars.

            We want them, they’re fun and better for everyone.

    • Neato@ttrpg.networkEnglish
      375·
      6 months ago

      The fact a car was approved that doesn’t have a manual way to open doors from inside and outside and start it is ludicrous. That’s basic-ass level shit. NHTSA is asleep at the wheel.

      • qjkxbmwvz@startrek.websiteEnglish
        22·
        6 months ago

        Other comment says there is a way from inside, just not outside (which doesn’t help with a young kid/toddler/baby is the inside passenger of course).

        Either way, glad this is “only” a huge embarrassment, and not a dead kid.

    • meseek #2982@lemmy.caEnglish
      368·
      6 months ago

      Or the foresight to have a small backup battery unit used exclusively for emergencies like say when the battery goes out or when someone reverses their car into a lake. The fact these are such death traps shows just how bad the US is when it comes to giving a flying fuck about people over money.

      And all the while Elon is touted as some kind of super Lex Lutherian genius.

      Honestly if I wrote a fictional book with some of the shit he’s done and how the world looks at him publishers would throw it back in my face as being the most unbelievable POS they’ve read in the past 20 years.

      • mesamune@lemmy.worldEnglish
        30·
        6 months ago

        I still dont like something that is electric powered making it so you cant get through a door. If there is a short, the battery dies (which it will someday) or generally bad parts could potentially lead to a preventable death. Cars were made so keys (or key like) can open the door no matter what. And especially in the heat everyone is going through in the US.

        • meseek #2982@lemmy.caEnglish
          73·
          6 months ago

          Ya I hear you. I don’t even like driving modern cars because they are all electrical and the pedals feel like video game controls. But nothing in the Tesla is built well. I fully believe it possible to build a full proof battery backup and not just hook up a random 12v that probably suffers from the same abysmal QA as the rest of the car.

    • dgmib@lemmy.worldEnglish
      6·
      6 months ago

      There is a manual door release that works without power, but only from the inside. She had just loaded the child in their car seat, shut the door then went to the driver door to get in and couldn’t open it.

      The doors are on the 12V side of the system, you can use jumper cables to connect an external battery from another vehicle (including ICE vehicles) to power the door under normal circumstances. But with a kid trapped in the car in AZ, I wouldn’t wait for that either.

      It a pretty rare combinations of circumstances, but there’s something to be said for manual keys still used on other vehicles with keyless entry.

        • dgmib@lemmy.worldEnglish
          1·
          6 months ago

          There’s a manual release that can be used to open the hood from the outside even if the vehicle has no power.

          It’s a safety feature for first responders, as also under the hood is a loop of wire that can be cut to permanently disable the high voltage curcuts prior cutting open the car with saws.

  • Nougat@fedia.io
    1471·
    6 months ago

    The car’s owner, Renee Sanchez, was taking her granddaughter to the zoo, but after loading the child in the Model Y, she closed the door and wasn’t able to open it again. “My phone key wouldn’t open it,” Sanchez said in an interview with Arizona’s Family. “My car key wouldn’t open it.” She called emergency services, and firefighters were dispatched to help.

    Just so nobody thinks someone left a kid in the car and then went into a store or something. Tesla should be paying for the broken window repair at the very least.

    • Ghostalmedia@lemmy.worldEnglish
      542·
      6 months ago

      Also, this is similar to a use case that Telsa likes to promote. They allow you to leave the climate on while the car is locked.

      This makes me never want to trust the dog and camp modes they advertise.

      • Nougat@fedia.io
        38·
        6 months ago

        In this specific example, I believe the driver buckled the child, closed the door, then was unable to open any door before starting the vehicle. Is it possible to either start the vehicle or at least turn on the climate control from outside? If not, this was a horribly dangerous situation.

        • Ghostalmedia@lemmy.worldEnglish
          41·
          6 months ago

          Yeah, this wasn’t even intentional. The car just shit out while she was getting the car situated. Very scary.

        • DBNinja@lemm.eeEnglish
          18·
          6 months ago

          Not without the 12V. I’m pretty sure most of the internal electronics are dependent on that working. There’s an access port so you can “jump” the 12V with another car, which I think would then allow you to open the door though.

    • Neato@ttrpg.networkEnglish
      274·
      6 months ago

      Sounds like journalists can just make shit up and publish it. “Telsa declined to comment.” so I guess it’s true until corrected.

      • frezik@midwest.socialEnglish
        23·
        6 months ago

        It’s how journalists apply pressure to companies to respond. “We have statements x, y, and z from the public about you. Do you care to respond? We need to go to press with it in two hours.” Companies can ignore it if they want, but the statements will go uncontested.

    • DaddleDew@lemmy.worldEnglish
      121·
      6 months ago

      Let me fill in for them then: “We CoUlDn’T PoSsIbLy pReDiCt ThAt tHiS wAs GoInG tO hApPeN!”

      That’s the usual typical Corporate bad faith answer to whenever a serious consequence that everyone could see coming but they kept ignoring finally happens.

  • Uriel238 [all pronouns]@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
    93·
    6 months ago

    Whenever essential functions (e.g. access) are powered, they’re supposed to have manual overrides. I’m pretty sure this is a regulatory requirement even here in the States where we’re stupid and regulatory agencies are mostly captured.

    So WTF happened, Tesla? Where’s the manual override for when the battery fails?

    • assassin_aragorn@lemmy.worldEnglish
      15·
      6 months ago

      It’s basic safety for industrial plants to designate powered equipment as “fail open” or “fail closed” or on/off. It’s shocking that this wasn’t applied to Tesla cars.

      We really need an industry that performs industrial grade HAZOPs on consumer products and publishes a report for everyone to see.

      • Kecessa@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
        382·
        6 months ago

        That’s for if you’re inside, a mechanical access has to exist on the outside as well, no?

        • Darkassassin07@lemmy.caEnglish
          47·
          6 months ago

          No. You just need to be able to exit without power. Getting back in mechanically isn’t a requirement.

          It should be, but it’s not.

        • DBNinja@lemm.eeEnglish
          122·
          6 months ago

          You can also “jump” the car to open it via a 12V access port in the front.

              • AbidanYre@lemmy.worldEnglish
                25·
                6 months ago

                They did

                The child was safely removed from the car after firefighters used an ax to smash through a window

                • cybersandwich@lemmy.worldEnglish
                  1114·
                  6 months ago

                  I know.

                  My response was to the previous comment.

                  In a non Tesla, if someone is locked in a car, what happens? There isn’t some secret “let me in” button. You just break a window. This is a dumb story.

              • Lost_My_Mind@lemmy.worldEnglish
                142·
                6 months ago

                Yeah…because breaking the window as your first option in an emergancy is a GREAT idea. No need for a manual handle with a key, right? What a stupid idea that would be.

                • FaceDeer@fedia.io
                  94·
                  6 months ago

                  It’s not your first option in an emergency. Normally you just open the door. Breaking the glass is several layers of things-not-working deep.

              • TBi@lemmy.worldEnglish
                52·
                6 months ago

                Agree. The only worry is the flying glass might hurt the child.

                • catloaf@lemm.eeEnglish
                  7·
                  6 months ago

                  Tempered glass is designed to not be sharp when broken. But they break a window furthest from the person inside to limit damage.

                  They can also use some tools to remove the window in mostly one piece after cracking it, rather than smashing it and sending glass flying.

  • Maggoty@lemmy.worldEnglish
    90·
    6 months ago

    Failsafe.

    Fail Safe.

    Fail Open.

    Elon is why we need to write safety regulations. He’s the kind of guy who would put sawdust in your food and call it innovation.

    • Buddahriffic@lemmy.worldEnglish
      2510·
      6 months ago

      Agree on your overall sentiment, though I’d say it is a bit more complicated than that for car doors. You don’t want it to fail and come open while moving, for example, especially if the car is coming to a stop and inertia forces the doors fully open. That Boeing door failed open and it was not very safe.

      Vehicle doors should be fail functional rather than open to fail safe. As in designed to be very unlikely to fail and/or still functional even if one or several components do fail.

      Edit: I normally avoid commenting on my downvotes (you win some, you lose some) but this one is baffling. What’s controversial or unpopular about what I said?

      • Todd Bonzalez@lemm.eeEnglish
        82·
        6 months ago

        I’d say it is a bit more complicated than that for car doors.

        Car doors work fine on every car but a Tesla. They aren’t some new technology invented by Tesla where design flaws like this are understandable. Tesla just does things so badly that they invent brand new dangers that only exist with their vehicles.

        You don’t want it to fail and come open

        That isn’t what “fail open” means. It doesn’t mean that the moment the battery dies all the doors fly open. It means that when the battery dies the doors aren’t latched shut like a bank safe.

        At a minimum, the key should offer a way to open the car from the outside when the battery is dead. It’s completely asinine to put the only emergency latch on the inside of the car where you can’t use it, especially since it is hidden so deep most people can’t find it without the manual.

        What’s controversial or unpopular about what I said?

        You’re giving Elon Musk’s awful cars the benefit of a doubt by pretending that this isn’t a completely reckless design flaw that should never have existed in the first place, and you are deliberately misinterpreting what “fail open” means to make it sound like a ridiculous solution instead of the industry safety best practice that it actually is.

        Also, you’re complaining about downvotes, so expect even more now I guess.

        • Buddahriffic@lemmy.worldEnglish
          41·
          6 months ago

          Car doors that aren’t on teslas don’t fail open, they are reliable enough that I can’t think of hearing about any failures that don’t involve a collision and deforming of the door (in which case it’s a fail closed and they use the jaws of life to get people out, or another door).

          An electronic latch is either engaged or it isn’t. Fail open would mean that in the absence of an electronic signal saying it should be closed, the latch will default to not being engaged, which would mean there’s nothing holding the door closed if another force acts on it.

          Don’t assume any benefit of the doubt about Tesla’s. I made no comment one way or another about what I think of their doors vs other doors. For the record, I agree completely that they fucked up this part of the design. The purpose of my comment was to say that taking that design and adding “fail open” to it won’t fix it. Fail open and fail closed both have problems with an electronic latch and the only way to fix it without causing other big problems is to design it in a way that still functions as a door that can be open or latched closed whether or not the electronic part of the latch is working.

          And I’m “deliberately misinterpreting” what fail open means? I’m having trouble understanding how it can mean anything other than how I’m interpreting it, even with your clarification, given the disagreement about other car doors failing open. Maybe it’s a misnomer that I’m misinterpreting but why are you assuming I’m doing this in bad faith?

          The downvotes themselves don’t matter, I asked because I wanted to know the reasoning behind them, well aware that bringing them up at all will probably result in more of them.

      • Maggoty@lemmy.worldEnglish
        51·
        6 months ago

        Sure, for the electrical part. But the door as a whole should Fail Open. You can pull over with an open door. You should not have to break the door to escape after a failure.

        • petrol_sniff_king@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
          5·
          6 months ago

          I think the point, though, is there should be a redundant system to handle failures, like a mechanical-only door handle.

          Another example: your dashboard touchscreen fails, there should still be a button to turn on the AC. Or off. Whatever makes this analogous to the safety concern about doors.

      • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
        54·
        6 months ago

        Two options:

        • your statement comes off a bit ignorant - a failsafe would just pop the latch (and up and down motion) and wouldn’t be impacted by braking forces (front and back motion)
        • you weren’t explicitly saying bad things about Elon Musk

        But the general idea of things still working despite failure is the essence of what the OP was saying. People seem to not like comments that refine what others say (I have plenty of experience there), they prefer comments that either correct or blatantly support the parent comment. I don’t get it, but whatever.

        • Buddahriffic@lemmy.worldEnglish
          31·
          6 months ago

          For the fail-safe bit, if the latching system fails to an unlatched position, then the inertia of the door itself could cause it to open on braking and turns (or if someone leans on it or bumps it), since nothing else would be holding it in place.

          Obligatory fuck Elon Musk lol.

          It’s not generally as bad here as it is on Reddit. I still see the occasional comments that make me wonder if their author has any reading comprehension skills, but Reddit seemed to have representation from those kinds of posters in most comment threads. Even on the topics where Lemmy has general biases for, comments can still go off the beaten trail without getting crucified.

          Though with the smaller sample size of voters, I think Lemmy might see more cases where a comment initially goes one way and then swings the other way, which seems to be the case with my comment above, at least for now (and is part of the reason why I try to refrain from ever commenting on the votes, but usually there’s also a spicy or bolder part of my comment where I’m not as surprised if it goes negative).

  • Mouselemming@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
    882·
    6 months ago

    I had something similar happen to me years ago in a Toyota minivan. The car stalled and died in traffic, some kind of electrical glitch. I got out to raise the hood. The door closed behind me and it came up with just enough battery to lock itself, with my keys in the ignition and my two babies and quadriplegic husband inside. It was 107° outside. And pre-cellphones. I bolted to the nearby gas station to call 911 and grab something to break a window. Meanwhile hubby tried to coach toddler how to wriggle out of car seat and open door, but straps were too snug. Firehouse was near, and the jammed traffic was all in one direction so they used the opposite side and didn’t take long, and they jimmied the door open quickly. But it was boiling in there. Sat the kids by the road to cool off with water and get checked by paramedics, gave water to husband in car with open doors, and waited for a tow to the gas station so I could lower the ramp and get my husband out. Meanwhile of course we made the traffic even worse, but people weren’t too mad when they saw our plight as they squeezed past.

    I’m wondering, did some similar glitch happen here, or do Tesla doors lock every time they shut?

    • assassin_aragorn@lemmy.worldEnglish
      36·
      6 months ago

      Might be the doors are fail shut if anything happens… But that seems like the worst design ever.

      Come to think of it, it’s basic design to designate features as fail closed/fail open on loss of power in an emergency, and you go with what’s inherently safe. It appears Tesla did not consider basic safety design. To no one’s surprise.

      • Passerby6497@lemmy.worldEnglish
        29·
        6 months ago

        You’re assuming they didn’t consider it, vs having considered it and thought that its more important to protect property than peoples’ lives. Again, to no one’s surprise.

      • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.worldEnglish
        7·
        6 months ago

        I design process control equipment for a living and you are 100% correct. When the controller/PLC dies or the power goes out everything goes to a safe state that protects the human. Big part of the design decisions.

        • assassin_aragorn@lemmy.worldEnglish
          2·
          6 months ago

          I’ve unfortunately been working on process control strategies for almost a year now on new and novel applications for my company, so I’ve been intimately familiar with this. If it isn’t obvious, this isn’t my favorite professional area of interest hahaha.

          Designating fail open and fail closed valves is so intrinsic to what I’ve been doing that I can’t imagine someone designing a car control system and not thinking about that at all.

          • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.worldEnglish
            1·
            6 months ago

            I designed a quencher system that failed closed, no water flowing, during outages once. Granted I was an intern but still not my proudest moment.

            It’s weird now as my employer is slowing moving into motion control tech for waste. Seeing the changes like having to really think about hardwired limit switches and safety relays. Chemical world I feel is easier.

            • assassin_aragorn@lemmy.worldEnglish
              2·
              6 months ago

              We all make mistakes. I once forgot to include gravity in a pressure drop calculation for a 100 ft vertical pipe as part of a steam drum system. I had to send an awkward email revising the design pressure I previously communicated out.

              But hey, if we were perfect, we wouldn’t need peer review.

              I have a little bit of experience with limit switches, but that’s really interesting. It certainly seems like an unusual system. I’m a lot more familiar with safety relays.

              • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.worldEnglish
                1·
                6 months ago

                Imagine there is a process that makes a gas that is too hot. The solution is to spray the gas outlet with water. That’s a quencher. The PLC controls the amount the water valve is open or rather how much to close it. If the PLC dies the valve should open up as much as possible and blast water. It is better to waste water instead of risking hot gas going through ducting systems that can’t handle it.

                My mistake was putting failed closed valves in the system. If there was a power outage or a dead PLC no water would have cooled the gas. And presumably the ducting would have melted and there would have been fires.

                Like I said my most embarrassing mistake. At least we caught it before shipment.

    • jabjoe@feddit.ukEnglish
      23·
      6 months ago

      I’m glad that had a happy ending and sorry that happen. Autolock is so dangerous.

      • limelight79@lemm.eeEnglish
        5·
        6 months ago

        Most cars I’ve used with it won’t lock until you put it in drive or start moving at a certain speed; I assume that’s because of incidents like this one.

    • wagoner@infosec.pubEnglish
      14·
      6 months ago

      Tesla model 3 doors do not lock immediately every time they shut. But if you use your cell phone as a key, the default behavior is that they are locked if you walk away with the phone a few yards.

      • poorlytunedAstring@lemmy.worldEnglish
        2110·
        6 months ago

        Auto-lock doors have been a nightmare in general. I always roll a window down at least far enough to stick an arm through every time I get out of a running car because of the one time forever ago that I left a 90s Pontiac Skylark running, shut the door, and it autolocked with the keys in the ignition and the motor running. I had to get my girlfriend to drive me back to my apartment for the spare key while the car was humming away, and I never forgot that. If I wasn’t close to home, with a helpful ride nearby, and a spare key on hand, I’d have been screwed.

        Talk about features that need regulated out. All because suburban whites don’t want to remember to lock the doors as they drive through the black neighborhood so the car locks itself whenever you put it in Drive.

        • 0x0@programming.devEnglish
          121·
          6 months ago

          All because suburban whites don’t want to remember to lock the doors as they drive through the black neighborhood so the car locks itself whenever you put it in Drive.

          Color discrimination?

        • kalleboo@lemmy.worldEnglish
          10·
          6 months ago

          Every car I’ve driven with keyless ignition (which seems to be the standard now) refuses to lock if it detects the key inside the car, even if you try to do it manually by pressing the lock button, so hopefully this is a solved problem now.

          I’ve honestly never heard of self-locking cars doors, that’s a crazy idea.

          • uid0gid0@lemmy.worldEnglish
            5·
            6 months ago

            Our new keyless ignition vehicle wouldn’t fully close the hatch with the doors locked and the keys in the car. It would go down half way and play the “I can’t close” noise.

        • laurelraven@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
          3·
          6 months ago

          Last couple cars I’ve had that’s been a setting you can change… I set mine to lock when the car moves at more than a few mph, the other options seemed like too high a chance to cause an accidental lockout to me

    • Hexarei@programming.devEnglish
      7·
      6 months ago

      Specifically, it’s that the doors opening mechanisms are powered, and the power was not being applied to open them. There is no exterior mechanical entry option.

  • Buttons@programming.devEnglish
    744·
    6 months ago

    There was a time I wanted a Tesla, but I don’t anymore. This is just another reason why.

    Does Tesla care about making a “neat thing” or do they care about making “a car that can drive me places”. The doors clearly show they prioritize making a “neat thing”, but I want a reliable car.

    Opening and closing doors was a solved problem. Somehow Tesla made it worse.

    • Imgonnatrythis@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
      253·
      6 months ago

      Does Tesla care about making a “neat thing” or do they care about making “a car that can drive me places”

      Neither. Care about making money.

      • ripcord@lemmy.worldEnglish
        222·
        6 months ago

        One thing about Musk, I think he does care more about making a thing. Money is involved; but mostly because it’s necessary to make the thing.

        It’s just that the things he wants to make are increasingly stupid and childish.

          • ripcord@lemmy.worldEnglish
            101·
            6 months ago

            Boy you would think that, but it is clearly not the case. At least not primarily.

            Although it’s definitely more of a factor than his other companies.

    • MeanEYE@lemmy.worldEnglish
      6·
      6 months ago

      In summary, Tesla the company cares about not going bankrupt. Edge they have been walking on since inception. Musk on the other hand cares about money and being on TV non-stop because he’s a narcissist asshole. Problem is, those two have colliding interest because Musk is majority holder now and Tesla has to make what he says in his drug induced and poorly educated rambles. He wasn’t a majority holder for a while thanks to 42.0B$ fuck yea deal with then soon to be announced X but at the time Twitter. Now stock holders voted to give him 40B$ bonus to keep him in “leading role”.

      So in short it’s a shitstorm. Stupid car that had a great idea but was ruined by narcissistic manchild. Car which you can only repair in authorized service centers by the way which is something no one talks about. Car that eats away your tires and some people report having to replace tires every six months. And on top of that, you have no spare tire to begin with. That means you run over a nail, tow truck for you it is.

      Oh and I haven’t said anything about share holders because they are plain old idiots. Tesla is not paying dividends and never planned to do so. So people buy stocks to have them? I don’t know some sort of mystery. And even then, they buy stocks, then Musk hypes them up a bit, sells quintillion shares and bails out, which is why he’s not allowed to talk about Tesla without babysitter. So share holders buy stocks, lose money and cheer for Musk.

    • WahotsEnglish
      63·
      6 months ago

      Same, but cars in general now. I used to look forward to driving, but now I’m sick of it. Biking and ebikes have made going places fun again :)

  • Todd Bonzalez@lemm.eeEnglish
    557·
    6 months ago

    The headline rambles a little bit, and by the time I got to “, died”, I thought the toddler was dead.

          • AbidanYre@lemmy.worldEnglish
            104·
            6 months ago

            You said other manufacturers fail at “this” referring to the 12v battery dying, but the context here is a child being trapped in a car when that battery fails. If the 12v battery fails on any other car you simply pull the handle and the door opens.

              • AbidanYre@lemmy.worldEnglish
                59·
                6 months ago

                Ok fine, what other manufacturer traps someone inside when the battery fails?

                You mentioned the hidden latch on another thread. Should I bring my question over there instead? I may conflated two discussions because you’re up and down this post defending Tesla’s boneheaded decisions.

                • Kecessa@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
                  102·
                  6 months ago

                  “Should I bring my question over there instead?”

                  That’s usually what people do so conversations can actually be followed and come in a logical order…

      • ColeSloth@discuss.tchncs.deEnglish
        31·
        6 months ago

        What? No they aren’t. They almost always fail on a curve of power and voltage loss.

        Also, I didn’t look it up, but I’d be very surprised if the model Y tesla didn’t require (suggest and oem?) an AGM battery. It’s still lead, but due to how they’re made they can’t get a dead short in them like older regular lead acid batteries can once they get old, although it still isn’t very common for it to happen.

          • ColeSloth@discuss.tchncs.deEnglish
            12·
            6 months ago

            No they aren’t. They degrade before they fail. If tesla wanted to provide a warning of a failing battery that pretty much always worked it could have wired in a load test and went off voltage drop under a heavier load.

            Testing if batteries are good or bad does not qualify a person to chart out battery degradation.

              • ColeSloth@discuss.tchncs.deEnglish
                11·
                6 months ago

                Once again, I did this for a living, for a decade. We would constantly have cars with failed batteries, we would bring them in, charge them up, test them, they would pass, we’d send them on their way, and they would fail again

                I also test batteries and this just looks like you all didn’t test them well. Like you skipped the capacity test because it takes being hooked up for a long time instead of the test that takes 20 seconds to do.

    • explodicle@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
      5·
      6 months ago

      Even if she did receive warnings, she’s a grandmother who easily could miss one of the many messages on the car. It’s just bad design.

  • 0x0@programming.devEnglish
    473·
    6 months ago

    Not even the door locks are mechanical? So much built-in obsolescence…

    • rottingleaf@lemmy.zipEnglish
      131·
      6 months ago

      Idiocracy was a prophetic movie, with everything working, eh, like this and planes falling.

    • ryathal@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
      127·
      6 months ago

      I haven’t has a car with mechanical locks in a long time. I’ve also not had a battery so dead the locks didn’t work.

        • atrielienz@lemmy.worldEnglish
          8·
          6 months ago

          On the mach E, my understanding is there’s a panel where you hook up a jump box that supplies power to those circuits to allow you to use your key fob to open the door. But there’s no bladed key to manually unlock the car. So technically there’s a failsafe but it’s not ideal. And I agree it ought not be allowed.

          • nutsack@lemmy.worldEnglish
            63·
            6 months ago

            how the fuck are you going to put power into the thing if you don’t have a charged battery

            what the fuck is wrong with putting a door handle somewhere

            • atrielienz@lemmy.worldEnglish
              4·
              6 months ago

              There’s a little panel you can use the uncut key blade to pop out and a power and ground wire in them that’s accessible outside the vehicle. Of course that requires you to have a jump box or another car and some leads. I don’t know who needs to hear this but stay real close to civilization if you drive one of these. Don’t get stranded in no man’s land.

              • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
                4·
                6 months ago

                Yeah, not buying that kind of nonsense. I hate how defensively I have to think when buying a car. This and electronic ebrakes really bother me.

          • Wrench@lemmy.worldEnglish
            2·
            6 months ago

            Yeah, that’s fucking stupid, and requires the electronics to not be damaged in whatever emergency situation you’ve found yourself in to require this external battery override solution.

        • ryathal@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
          34·
          6 months ago

          From inside sure, most cars have an override in the handle. It doesn’t change the lockout problem.

      • Maggoty@lemmy.worldEnglish
        14·
        6 months ago

        I have a Toyota where the electronic part of one door has completely failed. It still opens. You shouldn’t have to break out of your own car.

      • Wrench@lemmy.worldEnglish
        4·
        6 months ago

        My wife’s EV has a tiny key that comes out of the dongle, and has a tiny hidden keyhole under the handle.

        I had to Google to find it, but it’s sufficient if power is out. It’s a mechanical lock mechanism like cars have had for a century. As it should be.

    • LordKitsuna@lemmy.worldEnglish
      42·
      6 months ago

      It is, people are just stupid, can’t be bothered to read, or even wonder what that lever literally right on the door handle is for.

      Edit: turns out this is only in the M3, the Y, X, And CT are all designed by absolute idiots, and i joined them by not looking into all models

  • Guy_Fieris_Hair@lemmy.worldEnglish
    431·
    6 months ago

    The fucking DOORS require a charged battery? Fuck that. That decision will age great in the next ten years. Not to mention emergency situations where the electrical system is compromised.

    • laurelraven@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
      28·
      6 months ago

      It’s worse than that: it requires the old school lead acid 12v battery to be charged, so even if the car’s battery is full, it doesn’t matter if that old car battery has failed

      That’s not unique to Tesla EVs, but it being required to open the doors may be (the 12v lead acid runs the general vehicle electronics rather than down converting the 400v or 800v main battery… I don’t understand that decision, but I’m no electronics expert so there may be really good reasons for it…)

      • nerd_E7A8@programming.devEnglish
        12·
        6 months ago

        Let me start by stating that requiring the battery to open/close doors is a bad design choice overall. There should always be a way to open the door using a physical key.

        Ok, having said that, the 12V is a better choice. It’s easier to replace a 12V battery in case it fails and forcing the main battery to power everything runs the risk of draining that. Li-Ion batteries don’t react well to being completely drained.

        Besides, all EVs have a way to attach an external battery to the 12V system in case of total power failure, which will then allow you to do whatever you need. In case of Tesla Model Y there are two cables hidden in the tow eye cover that power the hood release. With the hood open you can charge the 12V battery directly.

      • jonne@infosec.pubEnglish
        7·
        6 months ago

        I really don’t understand why they still use those heavy lead acid ones. Couldn’t you at least get a lighter lithium battery if it has to be a separate circuit?

        • Verat@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
          8·
          6 months ago

          To be fair I think it is there as a backup for low temperature climates, the Lithium batteries wont charge at temps that low, but they still could have setup the lithium batteries as an emergency backup for all the 12v stuff.

          • areyouevenreal@lemm.eeEnglish
            5·
            6 months ago

            When the car isn’t driving I believe the main battery isn’t connected for safety reasons. It’s a high voltage battery, and having it connected all the time even when the car is being serviced is an unnecessary safety risk.

            Yeah they could and probably should use a different battery technology than lead acid. Preferably something with a wide temperature range. Lithium Titanate Oxide anyone?

      • Guy_Fieris_Hair@lemmy.worldEnglish
        5·
        6 months ago

        I can understand why. I’m guessing it’s for a couple reasons, maybe fluctuations in the voltage depending on driving conditions ( if you’re stomping on the throttle allowing everything to flow through the motors it may provide inconsistent voltage to the sensitive computers and electronics, I would imagine there is a step-down converter somewhere that charges that 12v battery, essentially that battery is used as a buffer. But the link between the big batt. and little batt. isn’t active unless the vehicle is on. And “On” requires the 12v system to turn on computers and close a relay.

        Doors relying on ANY electronics is a bad idea. Even most cars with keyless entry have a hidden key somewhere to physically get in the vehicle if the battery dies. If the main battery in a tesla is toast you have bigger problems than a locked door. But anyone who has been driving for more than a few years has likely dealt with an OG battery decides to stop taking a charge. And you probably won’t get much of a warning in an EV that doesn’t have an engine that starts turning over slower and slower.

      • spookedintownsville@lemmy.worldEnglish
        2·
        6 months ago

        I know that hybrids like the Prius (at least the older ones) use the inverter to charge the 12v battery with the EV battery to make the ICE beltless (no AC compressor, alternator, etc driven by the ICE) which is supposed to increase fuel efficiency.

    • thefool@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
      96·
      6 months ago

      There’s a release latch on the doors beside the “open door” buttons. I guess no I’ve else is pointing that out?

      • vaultdweller013@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
        131·
        6 months ago

        Pretty sure thats on the inside of the car and is actually covered as well. Release latch means shit in this situation, especially since car door design was more or less perfected over a hundred years ago at this point. Change for the sake of change is a damndable concept for tech.

        • thefool@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
          1·
          6 months ago

          I’ve had a couple of passengers open the door using the latch because they didn’t know about the Open Door button.

          I’m not saying it’s a good design (it’s dumb) but you can get out when there is no power

        • voxel@sopuli.xyzEnglish
          65·
          6 months ago

          obviously inside as putting it outside would make thieves job significantly easier.
          you can still break a window to pull it if there’s an emergency like with basically all other cars

          • zalgotext@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
            51·
            6 months ago

            No, with basically all other cars you can just unlock and open the doors with a physical key and a physical handle. That’s the next step in an emergency when the electronic locks fail, not fucking breaking through the fucking windows.

    • voxel@sopuli.xyzEnglish
      53·
      6 months ago

      there’s a mechanical override inside the car, but from outside doors can only be opened via nfc or remotely irrc (not a real safety issue tho as the doors can still be opened by breaking the windows like in basically all other cars)

  • rsuri@lemmy.worldEnglish
    402·
    6 months ago

    Now imagine this happens in a remote area with no cell coverage. In Arizona those are a thing too.

      • MeanEYE@lemmy.worldEnglish
        111·
        6 months ago

        Yes. You go out to grab a rock, go back in and smash the windows. Or keep one tactical door opening rock beneath the seat.

        • Morphit @feddit.ukEnglish
          23·
          6 months ago

          beneath the seat

          For the toddler to use?

          There is a mechanical door release if you’re trapped inside. To get in from outside obviously needs the vehicle to unlock, so it has to be jump started.

          Even if there was some kind of back-up mechanical lock I can’t see anyone carrying around a key only for this specific eventuality. A glass breaker key-ring might be the best option — along with understanding how to use these emergency features in case you need them. A glass breaker might also save you in a fire or ending up underwater.

          • MeanEYE@lemmy.worldEnglish
            4·
            6 months ago

            Mechanical release is hidden and not commonly used, or if ever. In moments of utter panic people will not even remember it exists, let alone use it.

            • Morphit @feddit.ukEnglish
              12·
              6 months ago

              The front ones don’t seem to be hidden, but yeah - if they’re not meant to be used regularly, people won’t remember them in an emergency. I guess the rear ones are hidden because they probably bypass child-locks.

              I don’t know how child-locks work on mechanical door latches. If the vehicle locks when in motion and the child-locks are on I don’t think there are emergency releases on most vehicles? The only ways out would be to get into the front cabin, break the windows, or find the internal boot release.

            • 𝕸𝖔𝖘𝖘@infosec.pubEnglish
              4·
              6 months ago

              These two remind me of the early Apple fanboys, completely talking around all the bad parts and focusing only on perceived good parts. Except, here, they’re fan-ing on a decision that was made a long time ago (using tempered glass on side windows) for exactly the reason they state is ‘bad’–it explodes into a bunch of non-sharp shards. This decision was made, and agreed upon by auto manufacturers, to prevent people getting stuck in cars on fire. Internal mechanical releases do nothing when the person inside is unconscious or is a toddler, as is in this case.

            • Morphit @feddit.ukEnglish
              2·
              6 months ago

              That is fun, I didn’t know that was a thing. I imagine that roll-overs are more common than submersion in water, but even so, that doesn’t sound like a great trade-off. Even in a crash, being able to quickly jump out the window is good — especially if the vehicle is on fire.

          • lightnsfw@reddthat.comEnglish
            31·
            6 months ago

            To get in from outside obviously needs the vehicle to unlock, so it has to be jump started.

            and how do you get to the battery to do that if you can’t get inside?

      • Wrench@lemmy.worldEnglish
        1·
        6 months ago

        Yeah, but I don’t think EVs have spark plugs to smash and use to break the windows. Checkmate.

    • MeanEYE@lemmy.worldEnglish
      85·
      6 months ago

      No need for remoteness. Imagine you drive into water or battery catches fire. You aren’t opening those doors.

        • MeanEYE@lemmy.worldEnglish
          11·
          6 months ago

          No you are not. People panic and default to most common behavior, this is why emergency exercises are a thing. In other words, the hidden manual release somewhere in the car that was never used is not going to be used in the moment of panic. You won’t even remember it exists.

          Also, that’s only on some cars and only in the front. None on the back seat.

          • LordKitsuna@lemmy.worldEnglish
            1·
            6 months ago

            It is not hidden, covered, obfuscated, or even in a weird location. It’s literally sitting right on the door handle. Also even with a standard 1990 car with fully manual doors you are not going to be escaping out the doors if your car falls into water. The pressure differential of the water pushing against your door prevents you from opening it until the entire inside of the car has filled with water, MythBusters did a whole episode on this back in the day if you want to go find that for the full story. But the tldr is that once your car is in the water you’re only Escape options are to break the window, get the window rolled down, or wait until the entire car has filled with water and the pressure equalizes

            Edit: turns out this is only in the M3, the Y, X, And CT are all designed by absolute idiots, and i joined them by not looking into all models

            • MeanEYE@lemmy.worldEnglish
              1·
              6 months ago

              I looked into all the manuals before posting that to make sure. Turns out they did improve on some models location of it. Which is commendable. But some are downright retarded. Am also well aware about effect of pressure and similar. Am less worried about the water than getting stranded in the car after crash or if battery catches on fire.

            • MeanEYE@lemmy.worldEnglish
              1·
              6 months ago

              Also, thanks for the edit and correcting your statement. We live and we learn. Unless pride prevents us from doing so.

    • LordKitsuna@lemmy.worldEnglish
      11·
      6 months ago

      Easy enough to get out, if you have a couple braincells to rub together. The manual release is not hidden, covered, obfuscated, or even in a weird location. It’s literally right on the door handle

      Edit: turns out this is only in the M3, the Y, X, And CT are all designed by absolute idiots, and i joined them by not looking into all models

    • Psythik@lemmy.worldEnglish
      25·
      6 months ago

      In the middle of nowhere, maybe. But I’ve been on several road trips across the state and had service the entire way, mostly LTE with a few spots of 3G here and there. As long as you’re near the highway or a town, you’ll get service.

      • PlutoParty@programming.devEnglish
        6·
        6 months ago

        There are giant swaths of area with no coverage, especially in the mountains of arizona, including the freeways and especially highways. The entire western US can be spotty with signal out in the great wide open. It isn’t until the Midwest and more east that one should largely not worry about signal coverage anymore.

    • tabular@lemmy.worldEnglish
      101·
      6 months ago

      It’s so obvious, then again I think there’s some cars out there without even a metal key for the engine. So dumb.

      • erwan@lemmy.mlEnglish
        12·
        6 months ago

        My car (Citroën) has a contact less key, I don’t have to get it out of my pocket and the car automatically opens.

        But it still includes a small physical key to open the car when the battery (of the car or key) is dead.

  • nutsack@lemmy.worldEnglish
    27·
    6 months ago

    what happens when a car catches fire because the electrical system is on fire and you can’t Open the door because it’s electric

    • Lev_Astov@lemmy.worldEnglish
      111·
      6 months ago

      There are manual releases on each door inside, but I’m surprised they don’t have them outside as well.

      Reading more about it, I find that many only have manual releases on the front doors until recently and they have a connection point you’re meant to jump with power to unlock and open from the outside. I didn’t think anyone would be okay waiting for a jump to get their baby out, but then these people waited for firemen to break their window, so…

  • dinckel@lemmy.worldEnglish
    24·
    6 months ago

    There should really be a law, requiring a certain list of mechanical things to exist on the car. So far, it’s only the emergency turn signals, and what, the mirrors? The door handles absolutely need to be on that list

    • Captain Aggravated@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
      141·
      6 months ago

      At least one door should open via a mechanical key and mechanical handle from the outside, and I firmly believe the internal door handles should all function mechanically as well. There shouldn’t be “usually you use a button but in an emergency this thing that looks like a bit of trim is the actual mechanical handle” that shouldn’t be allowable by code.

      • Semi-Hemi-Lemmygod@lemmy.worldEnglish
        3·
        6 months ago

        I saw a clip on Just Rolled In where a lady in a Lexus thought she was trapped in her car when the electrics failed, as did the firefighters who broke her window, despite there being manual releases on both the inside and the outside of the car.

        • Captain Aggravated@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
          4·
          6 months ago

          I spent enough time in aviation to know how much drilling it actually takes to teach people emergency procedures. If it’s different than what they usually do, it takes hours of practice. Even something as simple as finding and pulling a different door latch. If you’re stressed, even as stressed as “the doors won’t open the way I’m used to them otherwise everything is okay” your brain will just fail to pivot to the alternate procedures.

          Cars got so simple to use in the 90’s. Sure they were simpler machines in the 60’s but fuel injection eliminated chokes and other carburetor issues, automatic transmissions became ubiquitous, children can handle vehicles of this complexity. And now we’re making them more complicated for no actual reason, with electric door latches with manual backups and such, and it’s causing problems.

      • Guy_Fieris_Hair@lemmy.worldEnglish
        1·
        6 months ago

        I agree, the main handle you use on the interior and exterior of the vehicle should be PHYSICALLY connected to the latch. Seems like a pretty simple rule to make and enforce and seems pretty common sense.

        I have a 61 f100 with shaved doors that only opens electronically from the outside with a fob, but I didn’t build it to be a grocery getter with my wife and kids in it. I know the risks. And the hood opens without having to get into the cab so I can easily access the battery if it’s dead.