[Idea] If you don’t want to see huge flags taking space over actual drawings in the Canvas, pick the biggest flag that you can find to deface.
As long as a lot of people are doing that, the ones templating larger flags will be forced to reduce their layouts and give more room for actual drawings.
[Reasoning] When it comes to country flags, I think that the immense majority of the users can be split into four groups:
- The ones who don’t want to see country flags at all.
- The ones who are OK with smaller flags, but don’t want to see larger ones.
- The ones who want to see a specific large flag taking a huge chunk of space.
- The ones who want to see the whole canvas burning, like the void.
I’m myself firmly rooted into #1, but this idea is a compromise between #1, #2 and #4.
Typically #3 uses numbers (and/or bots) to seize a huge chunk of the canvas to their flags. Well, let’s use numbers against it then. As long as #1, #2 and #4 are trying to wreck the same flag, we win.
[inb4]
But what about identity flags?
Not a problem. They’re typically bands instead of thick squares, and people drawing them are fairly accommodating.
But what about [insert another thing]
Even if [thing] is a problem, it’s probably minor in comparison with huge country flags.
What should be the template?
None. We don’t need one, as long as everyone is working against the same large flag.
Just draw something of your choice over the flag, preferably over its iconic features.
But I’m not creative enough for that!
No matter how shitty your drawing is, it’s probably still way more original than a country flag. So don’t feel discouraged.
That said, you can always help someone else with their drawing. Or plop in some text. Or just void.
Why are you posting this now, you bloody Slowpoke?
I wish that I thought about this before Canvas 2024. But better later than never. (And better early by a year for Canvas 2025.)
EDIT: addressing on general grounds some whining from group #3 (the ones who want to see a specific large flag taking a huge chunk of the canvas space).
You do realise that this sort of “war against the largest flag” should benefit even you, as long as the biggest flag is not the one you’re working with, right? Even for you, this makes the canvas a more even level field. Let us not forget that you love to cover other flags with your own.
If you don’t want to see flags, don’t participate. Canvas is about people working together to create something and in my opinion, country flags have their place on there just as much as the endless brand logos, ponies and amongus crewmates.
If you don’t want to see flags, don’t participate.
Or alternatively we [people who don’t want to see larger flags seizing the space that should be taken by more meaningful stuff] can gather support to fight back within the rules of the Canvas, even if you found such a polite way to rephrase “if you don’t like what we do, fuck off and don’t play”.
And I’m not even saying here “don’t post flags at all”. I’m saying “cut the larger flags down to size”.
country flags have their place on there just as much as the endless brand logos, ponies and amongus crewmates.
And if left alone, their “place” becomes the whole canvas. We all know how nationalists are like - give them a hand and they’ll scream “THE WHOLE ARM IS MY REICH”.
I’m not even really disagreeing with you. To be honest, I’m quite sick of seeing large plain flags on the canvas, too. But I fail to see a point in being so angry about it to the point of wanting to “fight back” against the “nationalists”.
At the end of the day, it’s not that important. Just leave them and look for other spots to draw your stuff, maybe ask around in participating communities; they’ll even help you if you ask nicely.
But I fail to see a point in being so angry about it to the point of wanting to “fight back” against the “nationalists”.
Don’t assume emotions of people on the internet. My reply was snarky indeed, but I’m not actually angry.
At the end of the day, it’s not that important. Just leave them and look for other spots to draw your stuff, maybe ask around in participating communities; they’ll even help you if you ask nicely.
You’re preaching to the choir - that is exactly what I did in Canvas 2024. And also the reason why I’m proposing this alliance for Canvas 2025.
Conflict, forming factions, co-operation, and even vandalism are part of the game. That is how large flags pop up, and that is why I’m not proposing “GRAAAANT! We need rules against flags!” or anything similar.
However it works both ways. And just like people posting flags can organise towards a goal, I’m proposing that people with another goal should organise themselves. Even if you don’t like it because it goes directly against your goal.
Even if you don’t like it because it goes directly against your goal.
As I’ve said, I can understand your point and that’s part of the reason I do not support the German community for example; they tend to have the most flags every year and don’t really allow anything on them from what I can see.
I was more or less helping to maintain the Australian flag, as well as some of the drawings on it. Granted, I also helped to delete a few drawings off it and admittedly, I was just following along in those cases.
As I’ve said, I can understand your point and that’s part of the reason I do not support the German community for example; they tend to have the most flags every year and don’t really allow anything on them from what I can see.
That fits what I’ve seen in r/place and Canvas '23, too. And this year, too - the huge
ratmousegerbillemming was still technically a drawing, but only technically, effectively it was a huge BRD flag.Frankly this year I was rather surprised that the issue was the Australian flag taking too much space.
Australian flag taking too much space
It was scheduled to be even bigger last year… my point is that there’s basically two types of flag-making communities; those who really do just take up space that could be otherwise used by many for themselves and those who let others’ drawings co-exist on their flags.
I think the latter isn’t all that bad, as long as there are no weird rules in place of what can and cannot be drawn on the flag; although I don’t know what rules the Aussies had for this, aside from keeping the integral parts of the flag mostly intact, as I wasn’t involved in the planning process.
The point of flag is, that they are (usually) easier coordinate, draw and restore.
I suppose they will alway start with the flag because it is our culture but also define a drawing zone.
I disagree with any form of vadalism, but you may invit them drawing their monument :)
Due to the purpose of my post, I am focusing solely on the larger flags in the Canvas, a fact that you “conveniently” skipped past. And, instead of trying to proselytise my views, unlike you, I’m trying to gather people with common grounds, even with different views.
So I’ll let my rambling against flags in general to another opportunity, and focus solely on the Canvas.
The point of flag is, that they are (usually) easier [to] coordinate, draw and restore.
In other words: they’re boring and unoriginal, and take space of things that actually take more effort and cooperation to pull out.
I suppose they [who?] will alway[s] start with the flag because it is our culture but also define a drawing zone.
Both points are red herrings and you likely know it.
I disagree with any form of va[n]dalism,
Cut off the bullshit.
If you were actually concerned about vandalism you wouldn’t be defending country flags at all, given that they’re the major source of vandalism (more than the void).
Pick a timelapse of the canvas and see it by yourself.
but you may invit[e] them drawing their monument :)
Or alternatively I could tell them that their “monument” (pfffttt… holy fuck calling a dirty flag a “monument” is hilariously cringey) is taking off too much space, and gather other like-minded people to do it.
That is what I am doing here.
You’re being at the very least disingenuous, if not worse, so I won’t waste my time further with you.
Well, i find your post very aggressive…
i didn’t miss your point and wanted to put another point of view on how usefull flag are on a collaborative and competitive space.
We got our 4 small flag erased because we were french.
I noticed people start drawing flag, then draw something. Why ? Because it is visual. You are simply telling them : “We are this community, and here is our drawing area.”
And yes there is conflit due to the lack of space and human ressource.
It doesn’t dimiss you point, that’s just another point of view. You are right too.
So from your stance we should erase the major flag : trans flag, germany and rainbow in the same way as Void that erased other people work ? What do you think it will happen ? What do you expect from attacking them ? A pixel war ?
Will they understand your point ?
That’s not fun. You can create a group, that’s a good idea. when the canva will start, go to their matrix room and suggest some drawing. But don’t attack them.
Because if you attack them :
- people won’t be creative and try to protect their flag. You won’t get any creativity except revenge : they stop drawing and fiqht you back. Unless you suggest them some drawing.
- you may get a ban once notified
- your fediverse id may be shared among other admins instance and get banned.
I think the templates should be limited in size perhaps - if you look at the intended template location post from the other day, yes the Australian flag is significantly larger than the other submissions. However on the final canvas, people have drawn within the blue space of the flag which is actually quite cute. I don’t think ‘defacing’ is necessary, but rather a continuation of (at least what appears to me to be) a symbiosis where overlapping images work together.
So I guess I’d like to see drawing accepted on top of any large continuous blocks of colour.
P.s. I love what Canada did - the outline on top of the flag looks really cool!
Limiting the template regardless of what’s being drawn is an idea worth discussing with the devs.
Please don’t. The Aussie flag will likely be the largest, and it will have art on it next year (not like this year where we accepted art, next year it will be on the template.) It also allowed art this year. There is no reason to be an asshole and ruin stuff for no good reason.
Oh wow. I had to go back to check for the Australian flag. Took me a bit to notice the blue and the two stars around the British Flag.
There is no reason to be an asshole and ruin stuff for no good reason.
Except when it’s a rainbow, a flag of another government, or Tux’s foot. Right? /s
I’m not blaming specifically you eathan for this, before you jump to conclusions. But even you should acknowledge that the main sort of people “being an arsehole and ruining stuff for no good reason” are flag posters. And I would not be surprised if they were the major ones behind botting and multi-accounting too.
Just keep it small.
You do have a lot of prejudices.
You do have a lot of prejudices.
Against who are you claiming that I have prejudice?
inb4: my point remains the same regardless of the country flag in question. Be it the Australian flag, the German flag, French, Brazilian, Japanese, American, whatever.
We did not attack the rainbow, they are still here. The Brazilian flag was not attacked by an Aussie. Tux’s foot was over one of our star, sorry to the people who made it but we wanted our stars at the top of the flag (that was the only one we damaged)
No alts were used (or if they were they did not do significant work as i only saw 3 or 4 accounts that did more than like 30px) and no bots were used.
The Brazilian flag was not attacked by an Aussie.
After reading this, I probed a few pixels from 0,60 to 30,90. And I encourage others reading this to do the same.
Do you perhaps identify yourself as something else than Australian?
I also gave eco.br a check. I’ll translate the relevant comment, from three days ago, here:
It’s some specific guy picking on us, some ethan guy. Yesterday I even made a heart to signal peace and he vandalised it again with an alt account in another browser, then there was no way to win.
I wasn’t born yesterday. Based on the information publicly available, the only sane conclusion is that you’re lying.
No alts were used (or if they were they did not do significant work as i only saw 3 or 4 accounts that did more than like 30px) and no bots were used.
Given the above, your strong position against using IP to detect multi-accounting suddenly makes sense.
Tux’s foot was over one of our star, sorry to the people who made it but we wanted our stars at the top of the flag
“No, we don’t ruin stuff for no good reason! Uhm, errr, a star is totally a good reason!”
I’ll address other people reading this, not the poster above.
I don’t give a flying fuck about the Brazilian flag. For me it’s just Bourbon and Habsburg’s dirty undergarment on a pole. The situation would be the same with a green-yellow blob covering a red-blue smaller one.
I’m using this here to highlight why those people are trying to dissuade us from playing the game, in spirit and rules, cooperating to curb down the size of large flags on any following edition of Canvas:
It is not because they want to avoid “conflict” or “vandalism”. It’s simply because it contradicts their goals. “Rules for thee, but not for me” style.
First, @ethan@aussie.zone is not me. Are you probing where the Brazil flag was? Because as of last Check, (6hr before canvas ended, I went to school for the rest) it was someone who had not worked anywhere else on the flag. I did not see a heart, could have been when I was offline or when working on perchance.
I won’t be replying again. You are arguing stupidly, saying another account is me with no proof and probably probing off of the original Brazil flag.
First, @ethan@aussie.zone is not me.
Yeah, nah, anyone reasonable would have reasonable doubts about your claim here.
Even then, let’s bite. Let’s say that you and that other poster are different people. Even then you’re lying - through this comment chain you showed plenty signs of knowing who worked on the Australian flag, so when you’re claiming that “The Brazilian flag was not attacked by an Aussie”, you know that it is not true.
Are you probing where the Brazil flag was?
The general area should be (030),(6090) as stated in the earlier comment. If you want something more specific I don’t mind asking in eco.br.
I won’t be replying again. You are arguing stupidly, saying another account is me with no proof and probably probing off of the original Brazil flag.
You
- joined a thread clearly gathering people from groups that you do not belong to (namely: people who don’t want huge flags),
- bossing people from that group from doing exactly the same as you flag posters do (to organise themselves),
- avoided the main topic at hand (flag size),
- went on a “chrust me” (babbling about your plans for the next Canvas - that don’t address the issue at hand on first place, so likely posted as a diversion tactic),
- spewed some bullshit here and there…
But yeah. I’m the one “arguing stupidly”, for not swallowing the bullshit. Riiiiiiight.
It did make me feel a bit gross that from the get-go the plan was for the Australian flag to take up such an enormous space.
I’m satisfied with how things turned out, with art going all over the flag and the stars shining through, but it didn’t seem considerate in the beginning.
I’m satisfied with how things turned out, with art going all over the flag and the stars shining through, but it didn’t seem considerate in the beginning.
It’s often like this, to give you a false impression of a compromise. I’ve seen it all the time in r/place, for example. (Doubly true in pixelplanet, but that’s… eh, let’s say that biggest drawing there is a swastika.)
And typically, it goes like this:
- Claim a huge space of the canvas for the sake of the flag.
- Lay waste over whatever is in the middle of the way, be it drawings or flags from other herds.
- “Oh fuck, it’s too big for us to defend. People are drawing random stuff over it.”
- Eventually let the people drawing random stuff to do it, under the terms dictated by the flag itself. Under a discourse that sounds a lot like “this is the land of Our Holy Symbol. However, since we’re magnanimous, we shall turn a blind eye to your doodle defacing it.”
- [If applicable] Shift the blame of the step #2 on others. “Nooo, I didn’t do it. Others did.”
Besides the façade of compromise, there’s also a second motivation for fourth last step: it’s a way to co-opt people drawing random stuff to protect the flag, as they likely care about the surroundings of their own drawings.
Please do note, however, that people drawing those large flags do not want to reach an actual compromise. And playing nice (cooperation) only works if the other side is also playing nice - we shouldn’t be playing dove in a hawk-dove game.
something happened in r/place with the mexican flag, it got artwork on each of the bands, so what if “flaggers” put artwork on their flags, could be local memes or landmarks.
Then IMO we should left the artwork alone but still pick on the flag. Specially on iconic parts, that are typically uncovered by artwork. (In the case of the Mexican flag it would be the eagle over the cactus)
Will you organise a Matrix chat for this? I’d definitely be interested in joining
Will you organise a Matrix chat for this?
Now I will - that’s a great idea.
I’m planning to do so when the next Canvas is announced, in 2025, as people will be a bit more pumped up to join than now. (For now I’m mostly gauging interest on the idea.)
When I do it, do you want me to ping you?
Feel free to ping me! o/
The flaw in the plan is that three or four large-flag cadres could conspire to support each other and overwhelm a protest.
Ultimately, flags are just symbols similar to any other logo. But I’d still prefer just to see them banned from Canvas rather see Canvas turn into an r/place arms race.
Sorry for the double reply. Another thing that I realised in the meantime is that people working on flags won’t be willing to divert time too much time to undo defacement of another flag. So as long as we concentrate our efforts towards a single flag, the opposition of other flag-posters will be spotty at best.
That flaw is an issue, indeed. And it’s worth thinking on ways to reduce it.
However, there are two things in our side:
- the proportion of people holding critic and informed views about flags on Canvas is likely way higher than in r/place.
- due to the nature of the symbol in question (country flags), herds of “large-flaggers” will likely have trouble coordinating with each other.
Ultimately, flags are just symbols similar to any other logo.
Emphasis mine. I get your reasoning here and I agree with it; it’s just that those specific symbols are egregiously problematic in this sort of “collab+compete Paint simulator”.
could we incorporate artwork over the flag like it happened with the Australian flag?
spoiler
I really wish I’m not mistaking it for the New Zeland Flag
could we incorporate artwork over the flag like it happened with the Australian flag?
My main idea is to deface the flag, so I’d ask people to not integrate the artwork. But if you do integrate the artwork I’d ask people to leave it alone and focus on the flag itself, so it would be safe.
So you want to protect artwork on a flag but not the flag itself? I guess my ultimate question is why do you care so much about defacing any (larger) flags on the canvas if they don’t even take up that much space with just the flag parts alone.
Like, you want to respect people’s drawings that they spend hours working on while defacing other people’s drawings that they spend hours on just because you don’t like the “country-based identity that benefits the government” these latter drawings supposedly represent.
I really don’t mean to offend you, I just want to understand where you’re coming from with this.
Not quite “to protect it”; more like “to ignore it”. Even if the drawings are nationalistic in nature. For multiple reasons:
- Less targets = less effort.
- Easier to coordinate efforts towards something clear-cut (like “this is a flag”), than something that is often up to debate (like “this is a nationalistic symbol”).
- Those drawings are typically more elaborated than “me maeks flag”. As such, their artistic value is (for me) higher.
- The interpretation of a drawing as a nationalistic symbol depends heavily on the context, usually provided by the flag. (Think for example on a Taj Mahal on itself vs. a Taj Mahal mit an Indian flag. Or, dunno, a kiwi fruit with a NZer flag.)
But the main reason is that, while I personally despise nationalism and all that “muh country! lol lmao heil!” babble, the idea is to coordinate people based on the goal, not the reason behind chasing said goal. Some might share my worldviews of nationalistic symbols being bad, but most won’t - some will be there just to see the canvas burn, some for the sake of carving room for another (and hopefully smaller) flag, etc.
Now, regarding the effort necessary to put something on the canvas, and the fact that we’ll be reverting the result of the hours that they spent there: at the end of the day, the Canvas is solely a game. And even if they might dislike it, this sort of “you did it and I undid it” is part of the game.
I really don’t mean to offend you, I just want to understand where you’re coming from with this.
Don’t worry about it; you aren’t offending me.
I also apologise for the defensive tone that I took towards you at the start; I was expecting a lot of sealioning in this thread, from some flag posters, and it did happen, however you’re clearly not sealioning, so you didn’t deserve that tone.
Those drawings are typically more elaborated than “me maeks flag”. As such, their artistic value is (for me) higher.
That might be true, but depending on the flag I’d say that the whole act of adapting it into pixel art bears artistic value enough to say that the people responsible don’t just blindly copy a template.
nationalistic symbol
I believe that most people (I even want to say almost everyone) drawing their country’s flag on the canvas don’t do it because they’re a nationalists or they want to force the flag (as a representation of a country and all the connotations it may have) onto other people.
That goes back to the point I made earlier about the two types of communities; defending the “purity” of the flag and not allowing anyone to draw on it is more akin to forcing the flag onto people I think, while allowing people to more or less “deface” the flag with their own drawings (while still respecting other people’s drawings i.e. the flag itself) is much more inviting and arguably in the spirit of the whole event.
this sort of “you did it and I undid it” is part of the game.
I guess I just want everyone to get along and work together, rather than against each other. Reddit’s r/place was a battlefield where only the biggest communities even had a chance of maintaining their works; I just want Lemmy canvas to be a bit more relaxed, that’s all.
I’ll clip the quotes for succinctness.
That might be true, but depending on the flag […] don’t just blindly copy a template.
I think that you’re referring to the struggle of adapting an intricate pattern to a lower resolution, as the solutions for that struggle can be considered artistic. There are two catches however:
- This applies mostly to flags with emblems (as Mexico’s) or text (as Saudi Arabia’s). Those are typically not the concern in this sort of coop/compete online canvas.
- That artistic value is mostly relevant for smaller flags. And given that the proposal is to cut down larger flags into size, it’ll actually increase their artistic value.
I believe that most people […] don’t do it because they’re a nationalists or […] onto other people.
Think a bit less on the people being nationalists and more on the discourse that those people are conveying being a nationalistic one.
That goes back to the point I made earlier about the two types of communities; […] in the spirit of the whole event.
I don’t think that those two types of user (ones willing vs. not willing to have drawings on a flag) map even remotely well to non-nationalists vs. nationalists. And, in any group posting any sort of country flag, you will have a mix of both types anyway, and it’ll be impossible for anyone to enforce it one or another way.
Furthermore, when it comes to flag posters allegedly respecting the others’ drawings, it goes often as I described in another comment; under a discourse that sounds a lot like “this is the land of Our Holy Symbol. However, since we’re magnanimous, we shall turn a blind eye to your doodle defacing it.”, while co-opting those the people drawing random stuff to defend the flag posters’ flag, against other flags or actual drawings (as the people drawing random still likely care about the surroundings of their own drawing).
About the spirit of the event, see below.
I guess I just want everyone to get along and work together, rather than against each other. Reddit’s r/place was a battlefield where only the biggest communities even had a chance of maintaining their works; I just want Lemmy canvas to be a bit more relaxed, that’s all.
If the game was only about getting along and working together, it would be completely different. Factions like The Void would be banned on the spot, there would be a larger canvas to accommodate everyone, multi-accounting wouldn’t be so discouraged, there would be measures discouraging people from undoing the others’ drawings…
And yet none of those things happen. Because both cooperation and competition are part of the spirit of the game. In fact, I’d argue that they’re sides of the same coin, with the actual spirit being to mirror human social interactions in something inconsequential. It’s a bit like a political simulator, you know?
Even then I think that the Fediverse canvas will stay far more relaxed than the one in Reddit.
Our Holy Symbol
Again, I think that you’re focusing way too hard on there being some sort of deeper meaning to people drawing a country flag. Maybe you’re right and those people are nationalists who try to propagate some idea that their country is somehow better than yours by drawing a bigger flag. Why do you care so much?
the actual spirit being to mirror human social interactions in something inconsequential
I guess you could say it like that, although I would disagree that there are no consequences, most people just choose to ignore them because they don’t affect them personally in any way.
I don’t think we’ll find common ground here, but that’s totally fine. It’s been nice talking about it anyway; I just hope everything I said made sense^^
Ah, the “our holy symbol” was copypasted from my earlier comment, so it doesn’t address what you’ve already said in the meantime.
I also don’t think that we’ll find common ground. It’s sounding more and more like different moral premises; and yes, what you said made sense (even if I disagree with it).
Man, then dont attend at all, dont troll, dont annoy others.
As already discussed ad nauseam through the thread:
People who don’t want those huge flags in the canvas have the exact same right to organise themselves and use the rules of the game to undo those flags, as the people who are making those flags. So cut off this “you either leave them alone or sod off” discourse, OK? That’s what you’re saying under different words.
Not even the void is trolling.
Annoyance in this sort of online game is part of the game, like it or not.
But then the whole canvas is useless. If there just too many trolls then its no fun
But then the whole canvas is useless.
Nope. The canvas is a game; what matters is not the end result, but the process. It’s all about people organising themselves towards certain goals, that conflict with the others’ goals, and how they solve it through cooperation and competition.
That’s we were there on first place, even if copypasting random pixel art in Kolourpaint would be faster and easier.
If there just too many trolls then its no fun
Again, not even the void is trolling.
That said, having too much competition would make it unfun, but so is having too little.
It is fair then when i just track your pixels down and just nullify your actions?
Yes, even if I dislike the outcome. All is fair in love and war, and a good canvas should be a bit of both.
The issue that you might be noticing is on another level: perhaps we shouldn’t know who placed a pixel, to avoid a group ganging up on an individual. I do not know.
(Still, what I’m proposing is not even remotely close to that. It’s group vs. group.)
So mass harassment vs creator. Good, will tell that grant that this shouldnt be canvas rather KEEP OUT TROLLS canvas.
There should definitly show who placed a pixel to tell what troll placed it there, so you can just block him on the fediverse as you dont want to have contact with him ever.
So mass harassment vs creator.
Full stop here. That is not even remotely close to what I said, to what I implied, or to the consequences of either; by implying otherwise, you’re being at the very least a liar, so cut off the crap.
If you had actual concerns regarding harassment (odds are that you don’t), you’d do better if you raised them towards the people organising the event, to change its rules, than trying to boss participants around with a thinly disguised “fuck off unless you play the game in the way that I order you to play”.
I’m not wasting my time further with you.
It’s always kinda icky when ppl are so proud of popping out of a vagina/their parents having sex in a certain place, that they feel like plastering it all over a creative space in the most unimaginative ways
I’m not quite sure I follow your reasoning here. You’re saying that people shouldn’t be proud of things that they have no control over? As a gay guy, should I not be able to put up a pride flag?
There’s a ton of symbolism/meaning there, and doesn’t always mean blind devotion to a country.
Being gay, or any other actual identity, is an intrinsic part of who you are that would still be true if all of society’s constructs were to fall away. You’d still be interested, presumably, in people who presented in what we currently associate with masculine appearances. Trans folk would still be trans. POC, still POC.
Your home country doesn’t hold up to the same rigour. I think that’s the idea? Its less a “part of you” and more a “circumstance of your conception”. But hey.
This is succinctly put - thanks for explaining it in this way. Yes, I agree that sexuality is a part of me whereas a nation you were born into is more of an external circumstance that can change in meaning. I do think that a nation’s flag can hold different meanings and representations for people though.
I don’t necessarily disagree with you, and I can certainly understand that from the perspective of nations that are currently being oppressed or suffering great hardships it might be a unifying symbol that helps people to find light in the darkness. I’m not sure I can see a huge argument for an Australian flag that covers 1/20th of the canvas, however. But to your original point, I see where you’re coming from about these nations flags having other potential symbolism.
Oh yeah I do agree the flag was too big! I just don’t see it as ‘icky’ as the other commentor said
imo grouping ppl into nations (and thus states) is usually harmful. Ethnicity and culture are not synonymous with states which only exist for one class to oppress another (virtually always in favour of the rich)
The concept of a nation is one of the initial lies of ruling elites. The exploiters and oppressors have shouted since the dawn of time: “Don’t look at this massive ravine dividing us into materially opposing classes, we are all members of this abstract notion of a nation, remember? Direct your hate towards the exploited ppl of other nations, they are the source of “our” problems, even though you are much more aligned with them materially!”
For example: I wouldn’t have a problem with ppl painting flags of progressive movements or states where the working classes are in power
EDIT: changed first sentence to a more accurate definition of a state (still basic)
I’m stealing this pic. It’s awesome.
May I quote you if necessary? 😀
Why would you wanna quote me? >w<
it’s just a basic Marxist take, nothing original
One doesn’t have to be Marxist to recognise such things. I just thought that you phrased it well.
e: I also made a suggestion to ban flags in favour of the art and the spirit, in the “improvements” thread, and expected similar arguments.ah ok, go ahead then!
also I do think that materialism and understanding that history is largely shaped by the dynamics of opposing classes, are essential in arriving at that conclusion (at least the one I tried to water down in my post)
and Marxism offers wonderful tools for that: historical and dialectical materialism
I agree that nationalism is extremely dangerous. But I feel like a flag isn’t ‘owned’ by a nation, it can be an abstract concept that represents different things depending on the context. I get the feeling that the users that drew flags for this Canvas do not think their respective governments are perfect, or happily bow down to the rich. It’s more complex than that.
Frankly, ditto. And it’s icky for me specially when people conflate country with culture, like those people rather consistently do.
And… like, I get that we [people in general] get spammed by our governments with ideology, in order to ditch all available identities that we have at our disposal, and adopt the country-based identity that benefits the government. It’s more often than not fuel for oppression.
Don’t know if you’re familiar with the US Oath of Allegiance that every school kid is forced to recite at the beginning of the day, but it’s literally an oath to a flag. Completely fucked up, IMO.
I’m aware of the oath of allegiance, and that it’s an oath to a flag. On its own, this sounds ridiculous already - a symbol for another symbol, just like Brazil’s hymn to the flag.
But being forced to recite it at the start of the day is news for me, and throws the “disgusting” factor up the roof. Even if it was with adults, and not reciting it was only socially awkward, it would be already a clear violation of consent. Swap the adults with kids and have their superiors (the school staff) forcing them to do so, and it gets way worse.
This also shows really well that a flag is not the symbol of a population, it’s the symbol of a government. Otherwise it wouldn’t make sense to require to have them to pledge allegiance.
Sadly, I don’t think that the US government is special in this aspect. Governments are like this.
Agreed on all points. And I’m sure the US is not unique.
Come to think of it, the national anthem is also about the flag. We have a real fetish for cloth crafting.
Come to think of it, the national anthem is also about the flag. We have a real fetish for cloth crafting.
Acc. to a map that I found it’s relatively uncommon, but it does pop up for other governments (mostly Albania, Somalia, Switzerland, Turkey). So… yeah, your power structure does have a fetish for cloth crafting.
(Most other countries anthems talk about killing, self-references, or worship some individual. In the meantime almost none talks about friendship, and based on this map none seems to acknowledge that the world is not just the territory controlled by its government.)
There are some progressive battle anthems/hyms or some with a battle theme in a part of them and they still espouse friendship between the working peoples of this world! (though that’s usually the case for (used to be) socialist music) “The Internationale”, Vietnam’s anthem, “Auferstanden aus Ruinen” and ofc USSR’s anthem come to mind
What I mean to say is that violence can be liberatory instead of oppressive (like in the case of Vietnam)
What I mean to say is that violence can be liberatory instead of oppressive
Fair point.
