The problem I have with pvp games is they are very shallow compared to single player games. Most pvp games also tend to be shooters which by definition are shallow in gameplay.
I usually get bored of the gameplay loops of pvp games long before I get tired of the pvp aspects themselves. Just take a look at counter strike, Valorant, Fortnite, etc. Not much variance in the gameplay loop. I get bored of that shit really quick.
On the other hand a single player game like rimworld, factorio, battle brothers……Their gameplay loops are complex and still bring be varied interesting gameplay even 1000 hours later.
The variance is the PvP itself. No 2 players are exactly the same. I’m not a fan of PvP any more but as someone who’s put hours into PvP focused games, calling them shallow and unvaried is the exact opposite of true. Most of them have crazy high skill ceilings, which is why they can be competitive in the first place
Exactly. To me that gets repetitive and it isn’t all that interesting if that is all there is to it. PvP for the sole purpose to pvp is only so fun for so long. For me anyway. That goes triple for shooters where there is no meaningful outcome to winning or losing. Grinding rank in a competitive game isn’t interesting at all when the game play loop is simple. I’m talking games like counter strike.
I don’t have the time for it because the time investment is MASSIVE but the most interesting and fun pvp game for me was Eve online.
Lots and lots of pvp with huge losses. But the purpose and outcome of the pvp had devastating effects to the economical and geopolitical atmosphere in the region you were fighting in.
You weren’t fighting just to fight. Don’t get me wrong there was plenty of skirmishing. Lots of pointless and meaningless fights. Although they weren’t completely meaningless as every loss was a resource dump for the loser. Enough of those and an opponent might flee the region putting the war on hold to rebuild resources. War is real. There was something bigger in the game that was affected by your fighting.
I wish there were more games like Eve online. I want the pvp I engage in to be meaningful and have lasting effect on the overall game. That’s what keeps me engaged and striving.
The problem to me is that the vast majority of games have meaningless pvp. It’s an esports thing I guess. I don’t care for esports. I want engaging pvp. Esports isn’t it.
It’s because the developers rely on the players to make the content. You either end up with a shallow experience like looter shooters, or a dystopian hellscape like Eve Online where only the people playing the longest with the most sociopathic traits end up controlling the entire game board.
Either way, it’s not a fun experience. They act like you matter, that your choices mean something, but they don’t have any impact at all. It’s even less than a PvE game like BG3 where your choices dictate the playthrough.
Eve online is a good example of a good pvp system. At least your fighting has meaningful outcomes. A 5v5 in an arena game like CS has zero meaningful outcome.
If you pay attention the landscape is always changing in Eve. Big empires are constantly being challenged and the chess board is constantly changing.
Say what you want about Eve online. I don’t play it anymore. I don’t have the time for it. But I wish more developers were interested in making games like this instead of going for the esports trend. Clearly the money is in esports. I guess that’s what people prefer. I don’t tho. I think it’s boring.
Can confirm. I spent over 15 years in EvE, and only had PvP forced on me 7 or 8 times in that entire period. No rollercoaster or race track has given me an adrenaline rush like having my Rorquals dropped on by some stealth bombers and interceptors.
I still get twitchy if I hear the words, “Check check.”
Oh yeah, the other thing that I just don’t understand is that people say that EvE players are toxic. Yes they want to kill you, but they are the friendliest bunch of murderous assholes ever. In my experience, if they kill a newbee, and the newbee doesn’t become horribly toxic about it, they’ll normally end up reimbursing you for your loss, sometimes several times over.
The last big thing that happened was that WWB2 and then CCP changing the rules through the whole war to make sure Goons survived. Eve Online is a fucking joke.
I get what you are saying, it would be neat if more devs went this way with a player driven landscape portion of the game along with a PvE area. There just isn’t money in it like CS skins.
The problem I have with pvp games is they are very shallow compared to single player games. Most pvp games also tend to be shooters which by definition are shallow in gameplay.
That’s another thing I dislike about most PVP games. I like games for the story, even if I have to build it myself. I play shooters on the lowest difficulty so that I can enjoy the story. But PVP doesn’t have that.
The problem I have with pvp games is they are very shallow compared to single player games. Most pvp games also tend to be shooters which by definition are shallow in gameplay.
I usually get bored of the gameplay loops of pvp games long before I get tired of the pvp aspects themselves. Just take a look at counter strike, Valorant, Fortnite, etc. Not much variance in the gameplay loop. I get bored of that shit really quick.
On the other hand a single player game like rimworld, factorio, battle brothers……Their gameplay loops are complex and still bring be varied interesting gameplay even 1000 hours later.
The variance is the PvP itself. No 2 players are exactly the same. I’m not a fan of PvP any more but as someone who’s put hours into PvP focused games, calling them shallow and unvaried is the exact opposite of true. Most of them have crazy high skill ceilings, which is why they can be competitive in the first place
Exactly. To me that gets repetitive and it isn’t all that interesting if that is all there is to it. PvP for the sole purpose to pvp is only so fun for so long. For me anyway. That goes triple for shooters where there is no meaningful outcome to winning or losing. Grinding rank in a competitive game isn’t interesting at all when the game play loop is simple. I’m talking games like counter strike.
I don’t have the time for it because the time investment is MASSIVE but the most interesting and fun pvp game for me was Eve online.
Lots and lots of pvp with huge losses. But the purpose and outcome of the pvp had devastating effects to the economical and geopolitical atmosphere in the region you were fighting in.
You weren’t fighting just to fight. Don’t get me wrong there was plenty of skirmishing. Lots of pointless and meaningless fights. Although they weren’t completely meaningless as every loss was a resource dump for the loser. Enough of those and an opponent might flee the region putting the war on hold to rebuild resources. War is real. There was something bigger in the game that was affected by your fighting.
I wish there were more games like Eve online. I want the pvp I engage in to be meaningful and have lasting effect on the overall game. That’s what keeps me engaged and striving.
The problem to me is that the vast majority of games have meaningless pvp. It’s an esports thing I guess. I don’t care for esports. I want engaging pvp. Esports isn’t it.
It’s because the developers rely on the players to make the content. You either end up with a shallow experience like looter shooters, or a dystopian hellscape like Eve Online where only the people playing the longest with the most sociopathic traits end up controlling the entire game board.
Either way, it’s not a fun experience. They act like you matter, that your choices mean something, but they don’t have any impact at all. It’s even less than a PvE game like BG3 where your choices dictate the playthrough.
Eve online is a good example of a good pvp system. At least your fighting has meaningful outcomes. A 5v5 in an arena game like CS has zero meaningful outcome.
If you pay attention the landscape is always changing in Eve. Big empires are constantly being challenged and the chess board is constantly changing.
Say what you want about Eve online. I don’t play it anymore. I don’t have the time for it. But I wish more developers were interested in making games like this instead of going for the esports trend. Clearly the money is in esports. I guess that’s what people prefer. I don’t tho. I think it’s boring.
Can confirm. I spent over 15 years in EvE, and only had PvP forced on me 7 or 8 times in that entire period. No rollercoaster or race track has given me an adrenaline rush like having my Rorquals dropped on by some stealth bombers and interceptors.
I still get twitchy if I hear the words, “Check check.”
Oh yeah, the other thing that I just don’t understand is that people say that EvE players are toxic. Yes they want to kill you, but they are the friendliest bunch of murderous assholes ever. In my experience, if they kill a newbee, and the newbee doesn’t become horribly toxic about it, they’ll normally end up reimbursing you for your loss, sometimes several times over.
RIP Vile Rat o7
The last big thing that happened was that WWB2 and then CCP changing the rules through the whole war to make sure Goons survived. Eve Online is a fucking joke.
I get what you are saying, it would be neat if more devs went this way with a player driven landscape portion of the game along with a PvE area. There just isn’t money in it like CS skins.
That’s another thing I dislike about most PVP games. I like games for the story, even if I have to build it myself. I play shooters on the lowest difficulty so that I can enjoy the story. But PVP doesn’t have that.