That would be a morally correct political faux pas, that would result in Republicans scoring easy points just by saying “See! We told you so!”
It’s the kind of suggestion someone in a leftwing political bubble would make, forgetting that to actually be effective, you have to win votes from both sides.
There’s no room for tactical errors this election, even if they would make you feel morally superior. It’s not a game of moral signaling, it’s a game of politics. The point is not to be right, it’s to win the election.
I don’t know what you mean by this. Progressives just need people to vote. The higher the voting turnout percentage, the better progressive candidates do. Conservative voters are the last people to stop voting due to disenfranchisement, they are practically immune to it. There are not a lot of swing voters.
Yes, and the vast majority of Americans have no interest in voting for what they consider niche culture issues. Defeating fascists will protect everyone’s rights.
You’re not saying that they are disinterested, that this is an ineffective way to spend energy or something. You’re saying that it will actively drive moderate Americans to hate trans people. I think you need to look into your heart.
So, to be clear, your claim is that I didn’t say what I literally said?
Here, maybe an analogy will help. Suppose I run for office to fight corporate monopolies. How do I get people to vote for me?
“My fellow Americans, a strong antitrust policy will save you money at the grocery store by preventing price gouging.”
“My fellow Americans, a strong antitrust policy will save you money on Pokémon cards by preventing price gouging.”
Even though Pokémon cards will be cheaper under a good antitrust policy, that’s not a fact that will motivate average Americans to vote. They don’t hate Pokémon, you understand. They just have their own problems, living paycheck to paycheck, etc.
No, they’re saying that it will actively drive some moderate Americans to not vote because they see the trans question as being a far left issue. If they have more votes to lose than to win by talking about trans rights (which trans actually know are better protected by Democrats) then why would they talk about it when their goal is to be elected?
This is a reasonable response. But generally “energizing the base” is done closer to the election. We’ll see more preaching to the choir discourse around then.
I honestly don’t give a shit how loud they are about it before the election, I just want to see them take action once Kamala is in office.
Right now I just want to see them win the election, because everything else I want is off-the-table otherwise. If being quiet on controversial issues right now helps, then they should do that.
It’s the morally correct position. And running away from it will lose democrats votes they need.
They’re not gonna win republicans by going to the right. The democrats are going to lose if they try that shit. If they want to win they need to promise to bring back abortion rights, protect LGBTQ rights, and stop arming Israel. That would guarantee them a win. Especially if Kamala keeps up her economic promises she already made.
do you think winning an election is about the popular vote?
do you think the Democrats are more likely to support trans rights?
If you answered yes to both, then maybe don’t suggest importing wedge issues into something that’s about the popular vote?
Do you want to give Trump more voters? Because that’s what you’re angling for. That’s what the headline is suggesting to do.
You’re mistaking wanting the most minority supporting side of politics to win the election for not supporting minorities? How the fuck doesn’t that even make sense.
Kamala’s job is currently defensive, dodge dodge dodge, stay clean, watch Trump get dirty and sink. It’s simple.
As soon as she’s won, then it’s time to be very very very noisy (and violent) on progressive and socialist issues again. But right now that’s only going to act as a kind of sabotage.
Which is fine if you’re an accelerationist who sees value to strengthening American Fascism. But I just want to try to end the Republican party.
Have you spent any time in right wing spaces, or listened to the new generation describing themselves as “classical liberals”. They’re swing voters and it’s pretty important to them.
Yes, let’s just do everything we can to abandon every last minority centrists consider expendable in order to peel off a total of zero votes from fascists.
They’re not going to vote for you, no matter how many vulnerable minorities you throw under the bus. You’ve had fucking decades to figure this out, and it looks like you’re just throwing people under the bus because you like the thumping sounds.
All powerful me who you can attack rather than try to convince. A microcosm for your general approach of yelling. Your goals and demands, kept vague at best.
I doubt you even know what you’re asking for.
There’s a timeline to installing trans rights, it requires adjustments to the Supreme Court.
But I’m aware that you’re not thinking that far ahead in a planned or tactical manner, and your plans are: be loud, make demands, be radical.
But you’ve not actually outlined much more than that, so there’s nothing to debate with you.
Good day, good luck with your imaginary bus, and me as the all powerful deity controlling who gets pushed under.
No idea what you’re on about unfortunately, but you seem very vocal about whatever it is.
[Edit: No, I get it, you want to create a polemic against Trump’s obvious lies, treating them as if they’re worth addressing rather than let him melt under the scrutiny of the general population https://i.redd.it/m2pzcfjk77md1.png… But that’s not necessary. Let’s not make his lies into a false balance situation. Just let him look foolish instead.]
She didn’t get the popular vote where it mattered, popular vote is still what is needed
Trump won without it.
So you think it’s just as likely they won’t protect trans right as it is likely the Republicans won’t?
I don’t trust either of them at all on this issue. I think they’re just itching to throw another vulnerable minority under the bus like they did with the undocumented immigrants you’re using Republican talking points about.
This eager dismissal of trans rights as just a tactical decision is entirely why people shit on liberals. Everything that isn’t the rock solid universally approved “normal” is just an anxiety attack away from being bargained away under the faulty assumption it’s an essential sacrifice in the name of protecting the status quo. Never mind that trans rights aren’t a major issue for anyone other than the hard right or trans people and their allies, and that dodging the issue in no way protects Democrats from being assigned a role in the culture war.
You could have just said “that sucks”. You could have pointed to efforts that could work the system elsewhere to protect them. You could have pointed to the myriad of trans rights issues that have majority of support that we could redirect the conversation to. You could have said literally nothing at all. But instead you wanted to broadcast how unimportant the rights of your nominal allies are.
I’m debating whether or not to even engage with you here given that you just gaslit a stranger because you’re upset about what the ruling class isn’t doing for you (presumably) - are you assuming maliciousness where ignorance might’ve sufficed?
You tell me. If you knew that you had all these great ideas and support for people but knew if you didn’t complete this first step, someone else’d be elected and do the opposite of those things, would you willingly lose and put those people you support at risk??
Do you really and truly think that progressives/liberals don’t care about trans rights? After all the bickering these rich assholes do on every damn channel on TV?
Give me a break.
You are valid in being frustrated
You are allowed to have feelings and emotions about your treatment/mistreatment
But none of that makes it okay for you to take it out on your neighbors during a discussion which was trying to emphasize that politics are about strategy, not only morals.
This country operates via a leader person who’s voted for by majority count. In other words, that’s one person who needs to cater to 345 MILLION people.
Sometimes that means keeping your mouth shut on a particular issue temporarily to secure the win. When you’ve won, then you can start acting on those things you held off on emphasizing.
The alternative is that the other rich asshole not only comes in and withholds support, but also comes in and takes active measures to make it worse for these groups.
If it’s between regression and stagnation, I’m not happy with either. I will still take stagnation however because walking something back after it’s been walked back will only be harder.
When I go to pride festivals/parades I’m there to show my support. That’s active support.
Just because I don’t bring up LGBTQ+ rights and arguments at work doesn’t mean I don’t support them. Sometimes, by giving new dem voters some time to acclimate to the waters, you can give them the food later and they’ll be more likely to eat then, rather than when they’re first getting in the pool.
As much as some would like it to be true, you can’t just cram “new” morals down people’s throats and expect miraculous results. You can’t just tell people they’re a POS for not believing in what you believe in and expect them to be like “yo! I am an ignorant, holier-than-thou asshole… you’re right!” There is grace (growing thinner by the election cycle) and strategy in politics. Not everything is as shallow or malicious as people want them to be.
I’m debating whether or not to even engage with you
It was this far in where I didn’t debate and just didn’t read any of this wall of text. I know nothing you’re going to say is at all worth reading, because if it was you would have started differently.
Election issues aren’t representative of what candidates do in office, issues which don’t have election promises attached end up having the most leeway for action later on.
But in some sense it’s all a sham because we’re still going to end up in neoliberalism Capitalism.
The real issues are: how much direct government support can we get to survive under Capitalism (meaningful nationalisation of government aid in the forms of government welfare support, healthcare, housing, education, and public transport programs)… And how much citizens can cooperate in order to force these changes and or create parallel community based support structures that are immune and legally protected from market interventions and effects.
Strong government programs.
Strong communities capable of mass protests.
…and strong parallel community-supported actions/programs/organisations (see the Black Panthers Maoist breakfast programs).
Right now we’re just talking about a fairly thin part of 1). Don’t mistake a desire to win an election as an abdication of support for trans healthcare, it’s not. The desire is to get the less harmful neoliberal classist option into power.
The real challenge of maintaining pressure and momentum on Kamala and the left establishment Democrats comes after that, and will have to come from community organization directly.
Because Capitalists, left or right, won’t hand you their help, you have to demand it, make it, and take it from them by the force of your demands and the power of organized community mass action.
The ruling class (left or right) understand nothing less than that.
That would be a morally correct political faux pas, that would result in Republicans scoring easy points just by saying “See! We told you so!”
It’s the kind of suggestion someone in a leftwing political bubble would make, forgetting that to actually be effective, you have to win votes from both sides.
There’s no room for tactical errors this election, even if they would make you feel morally superior. It’s not a game of moral signaling, it’s a game of politics. The point is not to be right, it’s to win the election.
I don’t know what you mean by this. Progressives just need people to vote. The higher the voting turnout percentage, the better progressive candidates do. Conservative voters are the last people to stop voting due to disenfranchisement, they are practically immune to it. There are not a lot of swing voters.
Yes, and the vast majority of Americans have no interest in voting for what they consider niche culture issues. Defeating fascists will protect everyone’s rights.
You’re not saying that they are disinterested, that this is an ineffective way to spend energy or something. You’re saying that it will actively drive moderate Americans to hate trans people. I think you need to look into your heart.
So, to be clear, your claim is that I didn’t say what I literally said?
Here, maybe an analogy will help. Suppose I run for office to fight corporate monopolies. How do I get people to vote for me?
“My fellow Americans, a strong antitrust policy will save you money at the grocery store by preventing price gouging.”
“My fellow Americans, a strong antitrust policy will save you money on Pokémon cards by preventing price gouging.”
Even though Pokémon cards will be cheaper under a good antitrust policy, that’s not a fact that will motivate average Americans to vote. They don’t hate Pokémon, you understand. They just have their own problems, living paycheck to paycheck, etc.
Hope that helps!
No, they’re saying that it will actively drive some moderate Americans to not vote because they see the trans question as being a far left issue. If they have more votes to lose than to win by talking about trans rights (which trans actually know are better protected by Democrats) then why would they talk about it when their goal is to be elected?
This is a reasonable response. But generally “energizing the base” is done closer to the election. We’ll see more preaching to the choir discourse around then.
I’m kind of hoping the silence on Gaza turns loud once the election is close enough that AIPAC money won’t fuck the election.
I honestly don’t give a shit how loud they are about it before the election, I just want to see them take action once Kamala is in office.
Right now I just want to see them win the election, because everything else I want is off-the-table otherwise. If being quiet on controversial issues right now helps, then they should do that.
Right, but turning vocal on it right before the election might get some more people to actually vote, and higher turnout means Dems win.
It’s the morally correct position. And running away from it will lose democrats votes they need.
They’re not gonna win republicans by going to the right. The democrats are going to lose if they try that shit. If they want to win they need to promise to bring back abortion rights, protect LGBTQ rights, and stop arming Israel. That would guarantee them a win. Especially if Kamala keeps up her economic promises she already made.
I hope Tim Walz can talk some sense into her.
Biden administration restores protections for gay and transgender Americans seeking health care
Abortion rights will take longer, because they need the Supreme Court for that.
Israel will not happen, they will likely continue to support traditional geopolitical allies who are clients of the military industrial complex.
…you would likely need to alter neoliberalism it’s self to do that one.
Any other vulnerable minorities you want to throw under the bus while you’re at it?
do you think winning an election is about the popular vote?
do you think the Democrats are more likely to support trans rights?
If you answered yes to both, then maybe don’t suggest importing wedge issues into something that’s about the popular vote?
Do you want to give Trump more voters? Because that’s what you’re angling for. That’s what the headline is suggesting to do.
You’re mistaking wanting the most minority supporting side of politics to win the election for not supporting minorities? How the fuck doesn’t that even make sense.
Kamala’s job is currently defensive, dodge dodge dodge, stay clean, watch Trump get dirty and sink. It’s simple.
As soon as she’s won, then it’s time to be very very very noisy (and violent) on progressive and socialist issues again. But right now that’s only going to act as a kind of sabotage.
Which is fine if you’re an accelerationist who sees value to strengthening American Fascism. But I just want to try to end the Republican party.
I answered no to both.
The only argument any centrist has when they move to the right like they all want to.
So you don’t believe they need the popular vote to win and you believe that the Republicans would be better at defending trans rights?
I don’t accept that defending trans SAFETY is a losing election issue.
Doesn’t matter whether you accept facts or not, they’re still facts rofl
Have you spent any time in right wing spaces, or listened to the new generation describing themselves as “classical liberals”. They’re swing voters and it’s pretty important to them.
Yes, let’s just do everything we can to abandon every last minority centrists consider expendable in order to peel off a total of zero votes from fascists.
They’re not going to vote for you, no matter how many vulnerable minorities you throw under the bus. You’ve had fucking decades to figure this out, and it looks like you’re just throwing people under the bus because you like the thumping sounds.
All powerful me who you can attack rather than try to convince. A microcosm for your general approach of yelling. Your goals and demands, kept vague at best.
I doubt you even know what you’re asking for.
There’s a timeline to installing trans rights, it requires adjustments to the Supreme Court.
But I’m aware that you’re not thinking that far ahead in a planned or tactical manner, and your plans are: be loud, make demands, be radical.
But you’ve not actually outlined much more than that, so there’s nothing to debate with you.
Good day, good luck with your imaginary bus, and me as the all powerful deity controlling who gets pushed under.
No idea what you’re on about unfortunately, but you seem very vocal about whatever it is.
[Edit: No, I get it, you want to create a polemic against Trump’s obvious lies, treating them as if they’re worth addressing rather than let him melt under the scrutiny of the general population https://i.redd.it/m2pzcfjk77md1.png… But that’s not necessary. Let’s not make his lies into a false balance situation. Just let him look foolish instead.]
It is when that’s considered woke and you’ve got a ton of your own electors that have been brainwashed into thinking woke bad
I believe that the popular vote isn’t sufficient to win, as it wasn’t when Clinton lost with the popular vote.
I believe Democrats won’t protect trans rights, either.
You’ve chosen to be dishonest as fuck about my positions.
She didn’t get the popular vote where it mattered, popular vote is still what is needed
So you think it’s just as likely they won’t protect trans right as it is likely the Republicans won’t? Because that was the question.
Looking at Democrat’s States vs Republican States it’s pretty clear you’re wrong about that second part.
Trump won without it.
I don’t trust either of them at all on this issue. I think they’re just itching to throw another vulnerable minority under the bus like they did with the undocumented immigrants you’re using Republican talking points about.
Republicans do bad thing
Democrats try but fail to completely stop it
“Why did Democrats do this bad thing??” - Ensign_Crab
Every time without fail, it’s a classic
Again, she didn’t get the popular vote WHERE IT MATTERED, first past the post still requires popular vote, just not at a national level.
I bet they don’t answer you.
I hope you had money riding on it.
Geez, you’re a bit crabby, aren’t you.
Don’t call me a trumper for not trusting your shit party not to be shit, then.
Maybe, just maybe, a system that makes doing the right thing a losing move, isn’t a system that we should allow to continue to exist.
Are you an accelerationist? What’s your point?
I think @BallsandBayonets@lemmings.world was referring to First Past The Post in favor of Proportional Representation
I support this
This eager dismissal of trans rights as just a tactical decision is entirely why people shit on liberals. Everything that isn’t the rock solid universally approved “normal” is just an anxiety attack away from being bargained away under the faulty assumption it’s an essential sacrifice in the name of protecting the status quo. Never mind that trans rights aren’t a major issue for anyone other than the hard right or trans people and their allies, and that dodging the issue in no way protects Democrats from being assigned a role in the culture war.
You could have just said “that sucks”. You could have pointed to efforts that could work the system elsewhere to protect them. You could have pointed to the myriad of trans rights issues that have majority of support that we could redirect the conversation to. You could have said literally nothing at all. But instead you wanted to broadcast how unimportant the rights of your nominal allies are.
Because to you, politics is just a game.
That’s a lot of words to just say that you don’t understand how politics works in the real world.
I stopped reading after this because they obviously don’t understand what’s being said.
You fail at playing the game.
Bruh
I’m debating whether or not to even engage with you here given that you just gaslit a stranger because you’re upset about what the ruling class isn’t doing for you (presumably) - are you assuming maliciousness where ignorance might’ve sufficed?
You tell me. If you knew that you had all these great ideas and support for people but knew if you didn’t complete this first step, someone else’d be elected and do the opposite of those things, would you willingly lose and put those people you support at risk??
Do you really and truly think that progressives/liberals don’t care about trans rights? After all the bickering these rich assholes do on every damn channel on TV?
Give me a break.
You are valid in being frustrated You are allowed to have feelings and emotions about your treatment/mistreatment
But none of that makes it okay for you to take it out on your neighbors during a discussion which was trying to emphasize that politics are about strategy, not only morals.
This country operates via a leader person who’s voted for by majority count. In other words, that’s one person who needs to cater to 345 MILLION people.
Sometimes that means keeping your mouth shut on a particular issue temporarily to secure the win. When you’ve won, then you can start acting on those things you held off on emphasizing.
The alternative is that the other rich asshole not only comes in and withholds support, but also comes in and takes active measures to make it worse for these groups.
If it’s between regression and stagnation, I’m not happy with either. I will still take stagnation however because walking something back after it’s been walked back will only be harder.
When I go to pride festivals/parades I’m there to show my support. That’s active support.
Just because I don’t bring up LGBTQ+ rights and arguments at work doesn’t mean I don’t support them. Sometimes, by giving new dem voters some time to acclimate to the waters, you can give them the food later and they’ll be more likely to eat then, rather than when they’re first getting in the pool.
As much as some would like it to be true, you can’t just cram “new” morals down people’s throats and expect miraculous results. You can’t just tell people they’re a POS for not believing in what you believe in and expect them to be like “yo! I am an ignorant, holier-than-thou asshole… you’re right!” There is grace (growing thinner by the election cycle) and strategy in politics. Not everything is as shallow or malicious as people want them to be.
It was this far in where I didn’t debate and just didn’t read any of this wall of text. I know nothing you’re going to say is at all worth reading, because if it was you would have started differently.
Figured as much. Very obvious you’re not interested in having civil discourse with anyone.
Enjoy your tantrum and lack of individual support
Election issues aren’t representative of what candidates do in office, issues which don’t have election promises attached end up having the most leeway for action later on.
But in some sense it’s all a sham because we’re still going to end up in neoliberalism Capitalism.
The real issues are: how much direct government support can we get to survive under Capitalism (meaningful nationalisation of government aid in the forms of government welfare support, healthcare, housing, education, and public transport programs)… And how much citizens can cooperate in order to force these changes and or create parallel community based support structures that are immune and legally protected from market interventions and effects.
Strong government programs.
Strong communities capable of mass protests.
…and strong parallel community-supported actions/programs/organisations (see the Black Panthers Maoist breakfast programs).
Right now we’re just talking about a fairly thin part of 1). Don’t mistake a desire to win an election as an abdication of support for trans healthcare, it’s not. The desire is to get the less harmful neoliberal classist option into power.
The real challenge of maintaining pressure and momentum on Kamala and the left establishment Democrats comes after that, and will have to come from community organization directly.
Because Capitalists, left or right, won’t hand you their help, you have to demand it, make it, and take it from them by the force of your demands and the power of organized community mass action.
The ruling class (left or right) understand nothing less than that.