Couldn’t think of a more lemmy thread topic than one involving both Russian geopolitics and linux.
This one is scratching a ton of itch.
There has to be a way to fit Star Trek in too…
Couldn’t think of a more lemmy thread topic than one involving both Russian geopolitics and linux.
part of me is sad that there aren’t many .worlders defending blocking those evil tankies. lol
Yes there are, I think you guys should block .ML and enjoy your botted shithole website. Better your feed be an obvious echo chamber full of hate.
you’re preaching to the choir here; my fault for not including the sarcasm/snark tag.
Lmao sarcasm is indistinguishable from the full on brigading from the “help tankies are brigading us” instances going on in here to me 😅
friendly fire is common on the lemmyverse and i think it’s because of the reddit liberals; they’ve managed to get almost every single reddit refugee to self sort into a few instances to protect their delicate sensibilities so they’re incredibly well organized and funded, or they’re EXTREMELY dedicated individuals to the point of doing it full time for free.
Hello Internet commenters. Please remember that there’s no rule that says you need to tell us all your gut reaction to this if you know absolutely nothing about the situation.
knowing nothing about the situation is indeed the problem. if only this process was more transparent…
Being Russian => banned from doing business with the rest of the world
That’s pretty straight forward to me.
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and what do random developers have to do with a war between oligarchies? are we banning the dirty us imperialists next, because they do more damage than russia ever will?
or are we finding a negative thing about every nationality and ban international opensource collaboration entirely?
or, and hear me out on this one, the individual programmers making linux and 90% of the internet happen might not be fascists regardless of what shitty government reingns their lives?
Take it up with the concept of sanctions.
i do, (contemporary, us) sanctions are a way to punish entire countries for daring not to adopt neoliberalism.
i wonder how cuba would be doing right now if not for it.
WaR bEtWeEn oLiGaRcHiEs
Here grandpa you forgot your pills
But then there would be no Internet! /s
I have seen pictures of Linus Torvads so I feel that I am uniquely qualified to explain whats going on. Let me break it down for you.
The Linux Kernel is meeting compliance requirements by removing Russian maintainers.
Thank you all and have a good night.
The problem is they aren’t even saying what those requirements are even after numerous inquiries about it.
Don’t you think its wrong to ban someone only because of their nationality? I mean for real man. Every country in the world has done some fucked up shit but open source software is supposed to go beyond politics and ideologies.
They weren’t doing anything malicious it was wrong to remove them.
Allegiance is another thing. Russian citizens unfortunately are subject to Russian law and the influence of the agencies.
Maintainer is more than a contributer in that it is a position of trust, which is called into question when they and their computer systems are subject to a belligerent governments jurisdiction.
International economic sanctions? He said that.
They were getting paid to develop the Linux kernel? No? Then what’s actually the requirement?
Dude, WHAT. This is totally against what Linux and Open source in general stand for.
I don’t support the thing that I’m sure was their reason for this but I definitely don’t support banning someone from contributing to an open system solely off nationality.
So what eventually only the “good guys” can contribute to and use open source software? Who exactly decides who the “good guys” are in this scenario? USA? China?
The implications of what this can cause in the future for potentially all of the open source community is absolutely sad. We should welcome all our fellow human beings to contributing to open source.
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Yeah, being from Russia is a lot different from being associated with the Russian government.
Lies! You’re a communist! Russian troll!
/s for the obtuse
You need that reddit.world or shitty.twerks URL to really sell the bit and make the tone indicator necessary IMHO
…and we don’t know whether they’re the former or the latter, no? So maybe a little early to get outraged?
Considering the US foreign policy and the impact it has on the world, regardless of whether the white house is R or D, i propose to ban all american devs… preemptively, ya know?
Inexplicably based
I don’t see what this has to do with my comment. I see no indication that all Russians are blanket-banned.
You are casually declaring all Russians should be assumed to be state agents until proven otherwise, and therefore the negative reaction to this obvious betrayal of principles, not even for convenience but for hatred, is unjustified.
I am literally saying the opposite: I am saying that it’s not clear that this applies to all Russians, or just ones that are sanctioned.
Benefit of the Doubt…
Honestly I wish that was a principle that the internet embraced more. We’re so trigger-happy to be outraged.
No the contributors should not be considered guilty until proven innocent just to give Linus et al the benefit of the doubt fuckface!
Oh geez, this the third reply by the same account… Again, I’m just saying that we don’t know whether the contributors were assumed guilty, or if they have actual ties to sanctioned companies.
I’m pretty talkative on certain subjects when I see people mangling the discussion and engaging in bad faith.
This is just softpedaling it and telling people to suspect foul play just because they are Russian honestly. There are some significant sanctions going up against Israeli companies but nobody seems concerned with that.
Would you say that Linux contributors with ties to MIT and other US universities that get funding from the same organizations of the MIC and intelligence racket are suspect? No? Yeah just Russians. Cold War propaganda chugging little twerp
No, I’m saying that if the banned people are only banned because they’re associated with the Russian government (/employed by sanctioned companies), then I’m not going to get outraged over the kernel maintainers. I do not expect them to break the law just to die on this hill.
This is all hypothetical, they are calling everyone dismayed by this Russian bots, and it’s clear this is happening in sync with US aggression against Chinese professors and tech workers in the west. Most of my comments here have been pretty independent of what you’re saying anyways. The wider context which could even justify speculating about this where open source is beholden to western laws and corporate practices should be a wake up call to people.
This is all hypothetical
Yes, that is exactly my point: let’s not get all worked up about something where we have almost zero facts. Although:
open source is beholden to western laws and corporate practices
is definitely the case for the Linux Foundation: it’s beholden to US laws. And wake-up call or not, a foundation would always be incorporated somewhere, and beholden to the laws of that somewhere.
I think getting all worked up about it is probably the first step to getting more information out of them. ┻━┻︵ (°□°)/ ︵ ┻━┻
Reminds me of a comment the other day on a post about Ventoy. Whatever the situation there is, which definitely needs clarification still, the person was saying that you shouldn’t trust it at all because the maintainer is Chinese, even though he has emigrated away. Because the CCP will be able to leverage his family still there to force him to create a backdoor.
That’s just thinly veiled racism in my opinion.
That’s plain racism honestly.
I knew a (asian) guy who was working for a government contractor serving the US military. The racism is very serious to say the least. He got framed when something went down and was almost tried with treason. (that carries the death penalty) The authorities hit him with questions about his loyalty to the US for 5 hours even though he grew up in the US and so did his parents.
Where is that argument wrong, though?
Think about how completely unacceptable binary blobs are for most people in this community. And now comes a guy who for no reason whatsoever puts a binary blob of unclear origin into a project that can be used to inject code on a bootloader level. And that’s somehow okay?
And the threat of the CCP is real. Look at the xz situation. The Chinese agencies are willing and capable to invest a lot of money to get access to systems, and they also have a track record of taking families essentially hostage (or just taking the target hostage directly, if they happen to visit).
Don’t you understand that China is ruled by an evil party? The maintainer could be the nicest bloke in existence, with the best intentions and highest intellect - but if he can be pressured by a dictatorship, that’s a problem. And that’s not even a personal thing, I wouldn’t blame him for giving in to the pressure - I would cave in too, probably.
You have to grow up and don’t just throw around racism for everyone you don’t like. That’s not helpful and actually diminishes actual racism.
Just an fyi but blob already stands for binary large object
As far as I can read from that, they’re still maintainers, just have had their credit removed from the contributors page, no?
Still a strange thing to do and I look forwards to an explanation.
It’s about sanctions, simple as that.
You guys love to walk yourself on how super friendly open source is and that utopia is juuust around the corner, if everyone would finally switch to Arch.
But the reality is, that it’s straight up illegal for the Linux foundation to deal with Russians. Yes, that sucks for a lot of people, but that’s exactly the point of sanctions. Every time some NSA adjacent entity contributes anything to Linux, you all get hysterical, but people living under an openly fascist regime, that is willing to kill literally millions of people, having write access to core infrastructure, that they are known to attack is perfectly fine? You really don’t see the problem here?
You still act like open source exists on a plane removed from everything else. Linux is critical infrastructure, it runs all critical infrastructure. We have to act like it.
@BobGnarley @kixik Yep this is definitely not a step forward.
“Compliance requirements”? The kernel’s american now?! WTF?
The commonality of all these maintainers being dropped? They appear to all be Russian or associated with Russia. Most of them with .ru email addresses.
Not short-sighted in the least…
Similarly, the driver code remains within the kernel – including for Russian hardware such as around the Baikal CPUs from Russia’s Baikal Electronics.
Not a hypocrite move at all…
Are israeli developers blocked as well? How about all american developers considering how the US foreign policy keeps fucking everyone up all over the place in the name of liberty and freedom… of oil?
You do realize that the Linux foundation is an American based entity right? It isn’t a shock that it is bound by US law.
They employ Torvalds, Torvalds owns Linux™. Who owns the code?
“Compliance requirements”? The kernel’s american now?! WTF?
Nope, but it is not above the law.
Which law under which jurisdiction?
I suppose any law in any jurisdiction you want to use it, don’t you think ?
Guys, are you all really that young to not remember alla the fuss with crypto software ? Same thing here: you want to distrubute something in a country, you need to follow the country’s law, even if they are stupid.
The kernel’s american now?! WTF?
Now we see the intended outcome of the “Inclusively” movement of the past few years.
I can’t wait to see this “Inclusively” extended to China, India, Brazil and others.
We’ll truly be the most Inclusive ever!!! What a great thing!!!
The open source / FOSS movement in China is pretty rad. I use a sweet all platform text editor maintained by Chinese devs only.
People should be more wary of the control universities, NGOs, finance through those, law enforcement infiltration etc from US, Euros, Japan, South Korea, Aus has over open source projects due to technology being such a high national security priority.
Guess we’re just going to be racist and run with the misdirection of criticism of US laws on to foreign enemies. Just go with the flow, I guess.
If they really want reverse brain drain it isn’t my problem, it’s their long term problem. CERN is also making a dumb mistake, all universities are in on this, it’s imperial chauvinism.
I wanna skirt by all the political stuff and ask what that text editor is?
Nope I’m keeping it
Gaslight gatekeep girlboss
Well this is the last thread where I want to open up possibilities of text editor drama, but it is Siyuan
Fantastic to hear! wonderful news. Racists and Xenophobes will try to stop global collaboration, but the real conflict that matters will always be the smart vs the lowiq. FOSS is about humanity first and not any particular sub-category. Everyone who gets in the way is trying to divide and stop FOSS from saving the planet.
I think at the moment FOSS movement has a core of libertarian idealism which historically cleaves to the west when anything is on the line. This is because of academic institutions being dependent on/greedy for financial and political backing, and the control of the time economy of workers by tech corps trying to turn open source into “mow my lawn for free, build character” or by the media platforms which popularizers/online tutors of open source tech and software and operating systems are dependent on
However it is also a worker’s movement in some ways not just a device user’s movement, and I think it will play an important part in the battle over Wall St’s tech cash cow globally.
Racists and Xenophobes will try to stop global collaboration,
Yes! Go on…
real conflict that matters will always be the smart vs the lowiq.
Uff… That’s some serious brainworms right there. How do you call your worldview? IQ Supremacy?
I wouldn’t be surprised if they did something similar for China at some point. (If tensions worsen)
I don’t see them doing anything outside of that
I am quite disappointed at the lack of transparency regarding this.
it’s a pity that politics is penetrating more and more into open source and FOSS.
recently support for Russian cloud providers was cut out of opentofu. https://github.com/opentofu/registry/pull/824
now this. this is, of course, natural the core and many components of modern distributions have not been free in terms of decision-making for a long time and are under the influence of large companies, which in turn are under the influence of the USA.
It’s a fact of life that politics permeates everything, nothing is in isolation of the political climate it exists within.
The state of the world today is a function of the politics that got us here, a big change in world politics can have dramatic and far reaching effects.
A healthy global FOSS culture requires collaborative politics to be the flavour of the day—which is unfortunately not the case in a lot of countries currently.
A healthy global FOSS culture requires collaborative politics to be the flavour of the day
Bullshit. There’s no reason people with political differences can’t collaborate on the same project, unless those differences are really huge.
Politics is not just the relationship between two people, it’s the relationship between a person and everyone/everything else in the world.
Reducto ad absurdum: would you suggest a world where every country is at war with everyone else would foster a better environment for global FOSS collaboration than one where the world was at complete peace?
I honestly thought the statement you quoted was entirely uncontroversial. “Healthy” and “global” being the key words, I’m not saying it’s a requirement for FOSS to exist in general or anything.
Well for what its worth there are other counties outside of Russia
FOSS has always been political. And usually fairly reactionary.
Agree with the former, not the latter.
See: the FOSS higs that all flipped out when contributor agreements with codes of conduct like “don’t be homophobic or racist” started popping up.
It was quite a struggle and there is still a large old guard that simply refuses to move on it.
You’re greatly overestimating how many people that is; additionally, it was largely people that aren’t very committed to FOSS that got mad. The project maintainers and most users are fine with it. People who are committed to FOSS ideals are overwhelmingly progressive to leftist. That’s why those codes of conduct were added in the first place, and were largely uncontroversial amongst most actual contributors of those projects.
The projects that have those codes of conduct are the ones where any reactionary maintainers could be overruled. You have to look to the projects that have never had codes of conduct, the old guard and Incelie techbro spaces. Brave’s CEO is a homophobe, for example. This has been known for years, he still makes homophobic comments. Brave does not have a code of conduct or community guidelines. And basically anyone that notices and tries to address an issue like racism or transphobia with a repo suddenly finds a mass of reactionaries coming out of the woodwork.
Open-source is politics.
MKTux
We had a time of peace everyone was dependent on each other. Now the world is fragmenting and we we’ll probably have war or at least high tension between the parties.
What was this alleged time of peace you speak of?
40,000 years ago
@possiblylinux127 @TheOubliette Four years ago was certainly more peaceful than today.
I might frame it as less embroiled in open war and extermination.
@TheOubliette i don’t think there is any way you can measure and/or frame it that my statement is not true.
To split hairs, saying “more peaceful” implies it was peaceful in the first place and even is now, just less so. I don’t think it was peaceful at either point. Which why I am framing it as a status quo of violence that was lesser 4 years ago and greater now.
It depends on how you measure it. That was the start of covid so people were dying
@possiblylinux127 Whether you measure it by the sheer number of conflicts, their average size, or the number of people dying as a result.
To be honest, the only reason why any of that appeared to be true, or the west appeared to uphold free speech, just like free trade policies and laissez faire approach to international finance, that was all just because Wall St did not feel threatened, that was all just because the propaganda was received unthinkingly for the past 30 years or so. Especially between 2001 and the first part of the financial crash.
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Oh… USA is untrustworthy country and taints even regular good people by them having to live there. What can they do if CIA/DEA/CIS/DHS/SS/FBI or something calls and tells them to put in some code they want? Refuse and watch their loved ones rot in prison/get deported/disappear/die? Comply but risk telling the community they just did that?
@reksas @fireshell There is no such thing as a trust worthy country because they’re all run by politicians and there is no such thing as a trust worthy politician. There is an old saying, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Finland is an untrustworthy country. America is an untrustworthy country. You want special ttreatment for citizens of the NATO bloc despite constantly running intel operations and huge invasions since WWII and especially the 90s, thag got worse after they successfully desposed the former USSR and turned it into the capitalist shithole of the Russian Federation - which tried damn hard to ally with NATO before we pushed them away. No, it’s not “harshly put”, you have antique, vicious neoconservative politics and racist bullshit to back it up.
This is a shame, I always thought Linux was supposed to be an International collaboration, hate to see it caught up in this bullshit political agenda.
Political agenda is a funny euphemism for imperialist invasion and genocide.
I totally think them invading Ukraine is fucked up too but I also think the Israel situation is messed up too and would you be against someone maintaining code just because they are from Israel?
That would be wrong. Linux is supposed to be about more than political alignments its supposed to be a collaborative effort its always been about that.
This is wrong and its super wrong they don’t tell anyone what compliance they are following or who issued it to them which is also supposed to be against what open source is about.
Gee i’m glad israeli maintainers are being blocked as well.
I’m all for sanctioning them too. Economic sanctions are the bare minimum we should be doing to genocidal authoritarians.
@Midnight If Russia were the only one involved, and if weren’t provoked by outside powers like say, oh, the United States, yea I could agree with you but my knowledge of history precludes my accepting that explanation.
🥱
Putin is a despot trying to make his mark on history. No amount of appeasement from the global West would have stopped him from ordering the invasion.
@YaBoyMax Sorry I’ve watched enough of his speeches that I can’t come away with the same. I know there are a lot of deep state types trying to paint him as such so that we can get on with their ww III depopulation agenda.
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@GammaGames They had other provocations such as what was happening to the Russian speaking people in Donbass, but the United States definitely sealed the deal.
Does invading your neighbor count as international collaboration? Not that all Russian people can be held directly responsible for the actions of their government.
@theunknownmuncher The US has been involved in probably 300 regime changes throughout the world, has invaded many countries, including those that we were not affiliated with. Russia invades a neighboring country when we install a leader that is going to allow us to put missiles on their border. I really hate to see political hegemony get in the way of a good collaborative effort, we all suffer for it if we allow this.
The US has been involved in probably 300 regime changes throughout the world, has invaded many countries, including those that we were not affiliated with.
Absolutely fair point. I agree with you on this portion of your comment.
@theunknownmuncher And I could give countless other examples of other countries. I don’t agree with the war, but I also know if we hadn’t installed Zelenskyy and if the United States had honored our promise to Russia not to extend NATO past East Germany, then it would not have happened. So I understand that it is hardly one sided on Russias part. If we didn’t fund Ukraine, if we didn’t offer them membership in NATO, none of this would have happened. And I’ll add if the Ukraine and Russia did not have large oil reserves and some other precious minerals, the United States would be a lot less interested in them. But that’s all in the past. Now, you and I can disagree with each other and we can disagree with what our governments do, but if we want to build a better world it has to happen through the cooperative efforts of citizens NOT governments because the latter just historically a lot less likely to happen. So I can’t see this move as at all productive towards ending this particular war or world peace in general, I see it as quite the opposite.
Wait, what?? Zelenskyy took office after being democratically elected in 2019. Russia invaded Ukraine and annexed the Crimea region of Ukraine in 2014. Your timeline does not check out there.
Its almost as if it is coming right out of the Russian media
@possiblylinux127 @theunknownmuncher I know it might hurt your brain but it is helpful to fully understand an issue to understand the other sides perspectives.
@theunknownmuncher Your timeline doesn’t go back far enough and I notice you completely ignored the bit about Eastern expansion of NATO and what the United States promised Russia.
Your justification of genocide is both ludicrous and gross.
So why did Russiactaje Crimera? Saying this wouldn’t have happened is BS. Russia I expected a quick and decisive victory.
there is simply no meaningful response to this
no matter whether you think russia is justified in invading ukraine or not, if russians get banned from the kernel bc russia invaded ukraine, yankees have to get the boot as well
if russians get banned from the kernel bc russia invaded ukraine
You should read the article because this is not a thing that has occurred, at least not yet.
my understanding was that the kernel didn’t publicly state any specific reason, but “complying to sanctions” semms like a safe bet to me
in any case, whatever the reason, this removal is unfortunate and uncalled for
@bunitor I’d agree, but on this same basis with all the conflicts in the world you’d have to expand this to about 99% of the globe.
YUP
so… maybe nobody should be banned and it sucks that this happened?
@bunitor That would be my take. My take is that as individuals we are were international cooperation needs to begin, it isn’t going to happen with our governments, at least it never has historically.
We had international cooperation but the world is splintering now. Might be some security concerns but also think some of it is America protecting its companies from China companies.
I’m sure removing these maintainers would be of great help to the Ukrainian war effort…
More seriously: We need to help Ukraine more. But this doesn’t do that. It just hurts a bunch of people (both the maintainers, and the people using their code) for no benefit whatsoever.
100% agree with you! Like I said, I don’t think we can hold all Russian people directly responsible for the actions of their government.
I wish for an ideal world where politics could stay out of Linux, but this is extremely tricky and cannot be treated black and white. Labeling things as “political” and then crying to keep “politics” out of things is often used as a weapon for exclusion, for example by sexuality or race, and I think exclusion should be anathema for Linux and open source projects.
I think the general idea is to create as much drain on Russia as possible. Limit there ability to import and export good while creating brain drain and terrible moral.
How many Russians have defected at this point? Spoiler is a decent amount.
@lily33 @theunknownmuncher The best way we can help Ukraine is by removing outside influences from both sides. What is being portrayed as a war in Ukraine is really a proxy war between Russia and the US that was egged on by the US. This is most unwise given that both nations are armed to the teeth with nukes. We really should be looking at ways to de-escalate not escalate this war.
De-escalation is easy: Russia can get the fuck out of Ukraine. All of it.
@remotelove Yea sure, let the US place missiles on their border. Not a rational option.
Well considering the US said they would defend Ukraine from Russia when Ukraine got rid of there nukes. Yah kind of hand tied with Russia invading.
Aside from the fact that it’s pretty insane to suggest to kick someone off a project for no reason other than their nationality (the article doesn’t say any of these maintainers supported the invasion or had any ties with the government), even if these people actively supported the government, as far as kernel development is concerned… I don’t really care? If their contributions are good then I want their patches to be merged. Tor was made by the US government, which I in no way condone, but I still use Tor.
Ehh they keep saying we are not involved we are not whatever. You can only say that so long. I mean the soldiers are coming from somewhere these are not people grown in vats.
It’s a little unclear what you mean, like because more than half a million Russian soldiers have already been killed so far and yet the war keeps going, that the people must be responsible for supporting?
Russia is conscripting, so most are not there by choice but required by law. If you draft dodge and get caught, you go to prison, and still just end up on the frontline anyway, since they are emptying their prisons to use as soldiers, too. And these people will be shot and killed by their own side if they attempt a retreat, while fed propaganda and misinformation about their treatment if they surrender. There has been significant human trafficking to support their war effort. They’ve also depended heavily on mercenary forces outside of their military in order to have skilled soldiers, and are now even receiving soldiers from North Korea in order to continue fighting.
Besides that, there are so many factors that go into why a person would decide to join the military and in reality, they are usually economic ones or from extensive propaganda.
I agree to this. I was literally just in the shower thinking how Linux, the space station, and the Olympics are the only times we as humans come together to collaborate
@secret300 The project to discover elements 119 and 120 which previously were a US/Russia collaboration also put on hold. All of humanity moves backwards when we fight, nothing is gained.
Banning CFCs went pretty well too
@JWBananas @secret300 Yea you know the funny thing about that, CFC’s are heavy and tend to sink to the ground if not propelled into the stratosphere by rockets, say like the old Space Shuttle with it’s solid chlorine oxidizer boosters, or the various military missiles which mostly have been converted to liquid hydrogen and oxygen engines. But nah we got to spend $3k to replace our A/C because it contains CFC’s that never would have made it up into the atmosphere anyway because of you know, physics, little things like gravity, so the military can avoid blame.
If that was how it worked then we would have all suffocated long ago under all the argon that sank to the bottom of the troposphere. The atmosphere is turbulent and extremely good at mixing gases of varying densities, and CFCs last decades before being decomposed or removed from the air.
You know that Russia wasn’t able to compete in the Olympics or Paralympics this year, right? The individual athletes weren’t banned however, but they had to compete under a neutral banner and weren’t in the parade of nations.
Edit: I should have added, was disgusted because Israel were allowed to compete. Huge double standard there.
@princessnorah @secret300 A shame people can’t be more civilized. Really I don’t think we’ve evolved all that much in spite of our technology.
If I recall correctly Russia is not allowed to participate because of their state doping program not because of their politics. So unless there was an Israel state doping program discovered that’s not double standard.
That’s a valid point to make, but it’s actually both. Russian athletes would have been able to compete under the IOC flag if it was just the doping scandal, from what I understand.
“propaganda”? Oh. You mean like Russia started a full blown unprovoked war with a peaceful nation? That “propaganda”?
Sucks others got caught in the crosshairs, but that’s just what happens when your authoritarian government launches unprovoked wars and gets sanctioned.
And never ask why the US has over 800 external military bases, while all other countries combined have less than 20.
No it was code started by Linus that got huge.
I think the Russians that would want to backdoor stuff would just use a name like John.
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/linux-fellow-bans-university-contributing-kernel Or just suggest they back door the kernel to an American university
Error 500 can’t upload the image but check these names for ideas on your next Russian puppet account:
https://imgur.com/gallery/even-more-american-names-from-that-japanese-baseball-game-6HAtN
Edit…I wasn’t calling HIM a Russian troll. I was suggesting to use these names the next time AnYONE makes a Russian puppet account. Sorry, language.
Mine?
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No I’m getting error 500 when trying to upload a photo. So I linked an imgur of what I was trying to to reference. It’s from a Japanese baseball game they marketed in America.
I’m definitely all for Ukraine winning, but this is bullshit, basically the red scare all over again (but for tech).
red scare all over again
It never stopped. Most people still think Russia’s communist. Or any country that calls themselves as such.
Sure but they are not a democracy.
Nope, they’re an oligarchy, pretty much like the US.
Neither is Canada. It’s full of occupying settlers, for example.
This is dumb. Corporate divestment, sure, of course, fuck their money and their power structures. But open-source developers are not generally gung-ho about the war effort… let alone propping up their local military-industrial complex.
This is the only plan the west has to win the war. Keep fucking over random Russians in the hopes Putin somehow becomes politically vulnerable over this, despite opposition getting weaker than ever throughoit the war and with the onset of sanctions. Now we are asking random Linux contributors, please come back when you’ve overthrown your government for us.
Russia is of course the only country that has ever invaded another country so it’s only fair.
No matter how many vulnerabilities are introduced into software by western allied intelligence agencies, we should never be held accountable for dealing with them ourselves. After all Russians are uniquely responsible for their tyrannical government because of their Asiatic brainpans.
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Fact is you know I am right, you just don’t have any principles. You seem baffled some people uphold principles.
Now what the actual fuck
Linus gives it a full green light and refers to negative reactions as Russian bot attacks
https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linus-Torvalds-Russian-Devs
He’s Finnish by heart even though he lives in the US. I think it is probably a pretty big worry for him that Russia might invade Finland.
I doubt this is something that he would initiate but if there was any pressure from other parties (I’m sure there was) I don’t think he is going to fight it.
I understand that.
But he also sits at the heart of the open-source community, and his actions might ripple through the entire sector. With this much influence, allowing your personal fears to chime in is unacceptable.
Once we start fragmenting open-source the way we fragment everything else, we lose the very spirit of it and open doors to so much potential power abuse.
Besides, I really don’t see how restricting Russian maintainers would prevent Russian military aggression. If something important there is powered by Linux, it can be forked and modified to serve a specific need. Not to mention Finland is now part of NATO.
he’s just an American nationalist at heart. his dad was a member of the Russian communist party and his biography seemed to make clear that rebelled from that.
socially he’s not terrible but when the war drums come beating he’s stepping in line for the stars and stripes
socially he’s not terrible but when the war drums come beating he’s stepping in line for the stars and stripes
Like pretty much every Finn would these days, really.
I know you are saying this is a bad thing but as an American I have no issues with it.
That’s racist.
American national can take many forms. The kind the person is probably the kind based in American idealism (think superman, Captain America, “liberty and justice for all”) and less the kind based in racism.
Russia might invade Finland.
Finland’s part or NATO now. Putin may be a lot of things, stupid ain’t one of them. Ironically, this kinda backfired on him but can’t say it was unexpected considering most scandinavians love the american dream.
Actually insane lol. But you can’t expect much from anybody who willingly takes money from IBM.
Gotta have them “various compliance requirements”, man, gotta have’em. Don’t ask me what they are, but damnit, gotta have’em.
My first thought is that this was to make Linux palatable to western regulations, like how companies can’t use Kaspersky anymore. Stupid if I’m right because it’s not like the fsb is going to sneak spyware into Linux.
Edit: Linus commented on this and I was right: https://lemmy.world/comment/13034386
They very well could. However, it also could come from some US intelligence agency as well.
Wasn’t that XZ Utils backdoor recently with state ties or am I just remembering wrong
No one knows yet. Given the scale of the operation it’s most likely a large organization.
Possibly, but that’s a much smaller project being run by 1 guy. Linux has a lot more people and reviews involved.
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Comments do drastically differ between .ml and .world. On .ml, you’ll see more sympathy towards Russia and China.
But the issue on hand is way bigger than that. It’s importance is not in Russia getting sanctioned somewhere else - it’s in the destruction of openness and trust in the open-source community, which has far more reaching consequences. What has been done is pretty unprecedented - and dangerous.
And I’m surprised other Linux communities are silent on the matter.
I can’t stress how much the western supremacists are off the rails on this one: agreeing with the standard sanctions policy commonly used by the US, of punishing entire civilian populations based on the actions of their government, regardless of how you feel about that government and its actions.
Code is code, the nationality of the person shouldn’t be used to exclude them. ppl know how most of us here feel about Israel but I would never even think of excluding an Israeli contributor to any of the projects I work on.
Are they excluding contributions or maintainer status?
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@mindbleach @Allero From what I’m seeing from Lemmy, I would estimate the wackadoodle’s to be much higher than 50%.
The other half of what’s wrong with .ml is the blatant censorship all over the goddamn site.
The userbase’s downvote-happy inability to take criticism barely matters.
I was wondering why some of the comments were being maliciously dense and then I realised the commentators were smug aspiring redditors
You should stay on reddit.world or sh.itjust.twerks telling your fellow Redditors about how we need to send billions of dollars to foreign wars that RAND corporation and Chatham House have admitted they never intended to win (they thought Russians would overthrow their own government if enough Ukrainian men and adolescents die on the battlefield long enough, pure strategic genius, Zapp Brannigan would be proud).
You act as if we killed your dog. There is nothing stopping you from moving on. You can jump to an instance that is more agreeable to you or you could create a big block list. However, lemmyml has earned a bad rep from the rest of the community.
There is nothing stopping you from moving on
This guy was just telling me he couldn’t stand to see opinions that don’t mindlessly support sabotaging the Linux community. Now he says I should just move on? Weird.
@possiblylinux127 @griefstricken I was working on bringing up a lemmy instance here, but after seeing the typical lemmy users I think I shall abandon the project.
Still worth while to do so, the trick is you need to defederate problematic instances. Not hide them, fully defederate. That stops problematic instances and communties from affecting your userbase. There’s many great Lemmy servers and communties out there. Just because a few of them aren’t great doesn’t mean you should dismiss all of them.
I encourage you guys fully defederating the Redditor based instances from the people who actually care about the integrity of open source projects. Get lost creeps! You haven’t made a single argument in this thread other than “all Russians are spies” and “all dissenters are Russian spied”. Useless idiots!
I haven’t made any arguments in this thread, you are putting words in my mouth, and not really helping your credibility. All I said is that the person should defederate Lemmy instances and communities which go against the mission of their instance. Something that almost all instance operators would likely agree on.
Just for the record though, I don’t believe people should be kicked out of a project based on their nationality, that seems incredibly xenophobic. I don’t know where you got that idea that I said any of those things from.
You’re encouraging someone who wants to block “problematic instances” in this case people voicing opposition to that xenophobia, to host lemmy (an open source project where most instances have large linux communities), and taking them seriously on their concern trolling in the first place. It does send a bit of an unusual message.
Anyways I stand by it, that person should fuck off back to reddit.
No, you are wrong!
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Good, Lemmy is not very well-made software. I won’t belabor it, but you are dodging a bullet. It’s methadone for reddit. You can see the junkies fiending in this very thread.
@griefstricken I see useful things happen on Reddit, can’t say I’ve seen a parallel in Lemmy so far. And I’m not sure I can get it to run in the configuration I want to, which is to say having it NOT on the same machine as the web server proxy or database.
Take it to the dev/host chat buddy I can’t help you
The latest report that I saw was Russian attrition was nearing a collapsing rate in which the expected experience and levels of fatigue of renenforcments were to mean the expected casualty rates would climb exponentially on their side.
@fruitycoder @griefstricken Yes MSNBC has been claiming this for oh the last two years.
That’s interesting because I remember reading that in 2022. Meanwhile Zelensky is publicly threatening to deploy “3 secret weapons” which he apparently discussed behind closed doors with western leaders who are responding negatively to this pronouncement (indicating an unwillingness to escalate)
Let’s be for real, Russia could tac nuke a non NATO Eastern European country in response to whatever dual use weapons zelensky is talking about with a nuclear payload, and their chief worry would probably be the global backlash, not the threat of strategic nukes
Put down the washing machine memes and listen to the quieter admissions of Ukrainian soldiers. That’s how I saw them throwing civilian bodies into a pit, gloating, before editing 30 min later to claim they took it off a Russian phone (despite visible armbands). Morale is breaking down, conscription is failing versus the Russian mercenary and volunteer partial mobilization. There is no political change coming in Moscow.
@griefstricken @fruitycoder I don’t think political change is even desirable, contrasted with Dmitry Medvedev and especially with Boris Yeltsin and Mikhail Gorbachev before him and pretty much the farther back you go the worse it gets, Konstantin Chernenko, Yuri Andropov, I mean farther back you go the worse they get. I think Putin really has been the most willing to work with us if we had only returned the same in kind, as any Russian leader in history. As for political change, though I do not think it will come as a result the political will of the people, sure he has his detractors but think most people are not unhappy with him, where it’s likely to come is simply the fact that he is 72 years old, we don’t know the state of his health or how long it will hold up.
It’s a horrifying prospect unless you just want to maintain access to natural resource and monopoly rents via international corps, offered up by whatever Navalny type they would want to take power.
Medvedev… yeah no way but it would be funny.
@griefstricken Prior to nuclear weapons perhaps but that kind of takes the humor out of it.
Eh, nuclear weapons are a paper tiger. Building them is profitable, not using them in a big flurry of apocalypse. Maybe a tac nuke in Lithuania, NATO would not dare respond. Zelensky should not use any nuclear payloads, not a silver bullet.
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That’s so cute that you think that anyone who doesn’t eat out of the hand of Google News is brainwashed by Putin. You’re such a critical thinker. Thank you for weighing in.
Actually the difference between me and people like you is I actually read what Washington and Kiev are saying about the war and have memory longer than a goldfish! Plus, I avoid search engines that have gone under heavy censorship since February 2022 by groups like Alliance to Secure Democracy. I have far more cogent criticism of the Russian government and their media, their central bank, and MOD than anyone like you, or most of the supporters of the SMO. Mainly that they let the west get away with a Nazi coup in Ukraine in 2014 and sat on their hands.
Of course support for the Ukrainians has nothing to do with western propaganda LOL, you have no choice whether America and its sub-imperial partners in Europe, Australia, Japan, and South Korea send supplies and funding to the Ukrainians. It doesn’t make any difference whether you buy the propaganda or not. These same thinks tanks that call for a war in Ukraine are now discovering that western industrial capacity cannot be restored and falls far short of doing anything other than delaying Ukraine losing.
The economic shock of the coronavirus pandemic has now rolled into the mass realignment caused by sanctioning Russia. Sanctions place a burden on all countries which are expected to abide by them. Outside of western countries which constitute 14% of the world population, people are ambivalent about the Anti Terrorist Operation Against Donbas Separatists entering year TEN, they only care about the western financial system being turned into a weapon against them.
In fact, even American vassals like Europe and Japan are becoming more cagey about war. It certainly is not inspiring the hardcore faction of the Taiwanese about war with China.
Linus is an absolute cunt for not only following this gleefully but then attributing pushback to “russian trolls” and “state propaganda” fuck you man.
These people weren’t the MIT pricks who inserted vulnerabilities into the kernel, they were contributors who did hard work and helped advance FREE software. Linus is now turning his back on the GPL and manning it clear that Linux can be controlled by the US state on a whim.
