I care about issues of censorship and trolling, and the social contract on the network, thatās the only reason I am in this discussion. I think the whole ācall me dragā thing is not worth that much attention, yes, but banning a bunch of people for saying dragons arenāt real sort of drew my attention to it.
I donāt know. It is your instance. You can do what you like with it, but keep in mind that not everyone who is obeying the rules to the letter is your friend.
not everyone who is obeying the rules to the letter is your friend
100%, but everyone who disobeys this rule has taken it on themselves to decide which identities are valid and which arenāt, and thatās a dangerous precedent
It isnāt censorship if you get your post / comment removed or banned for breaking a rule. Thatās just the moderators / admins doing their job. And thereās a subtext to saying ādragons arenāt realā, which is āI donāt think I need to respect this personās identity or pronounsā. Thatās why itās gatekeeping. You donāt get to decide what identities / pronouns are valid or which rules apply to you because you think you made a good point.
It isnāt censorship if you get your post / comment removed or banned for breaking a rule.
Sure it is.
By my reading of the db0 terms of service, youāve broken them here, because you are advocating for systems of authoritarian control and against the open discussion of ideas. Would you support banning your user from db0 so we canāt have this conversation? Is that censorship?
I donāt think you should get banned, of course. Because youāre clearly talking in good faith, and I like being able to talk with people, even when I disagree with them. I just would have a wish that the network as a whole generally works like that.
You donāt get to decide what identities / pronouns are valid
But the blahaj admins do! If I showed up and said my pronouns were āthatsaspicymeatball,ā they would decide that wasnāt valid. They would not ban people for not using that as my pronouns, or for discussing the issue. Theyāve just decided to make their judgement call in one particular place instead of another. Thatās fine, of course, but then mechanically enforcing that everyone has to act in exact accordance with where they drew the line, even though thereās room for reasonable disagreement, is what will get people talking about you on PTB.
The reality of human life is that people look at things differently sometimes. I get wanting to protect your space against ignorance or people who will make someone feel unwelcome. But this is taking it to an extreme, forcing everyone to look at things in exactly the same chosen way, which is tearing down the thing youāre trying to accomplish, I think.
Does db0 have a ToS? I can see an āAnarchist Code of Conductā, which seems to only support my points. In addition, db0 Lemmy has its own rules that could be seen as censorship just the same. Pointing out either instanceās rules existing presumably doesnāt imply that Iām advocating for authoritarian control or against discussion of ideas.
If you said your pronouns were 19 characters long, then one would argue that it is no longer functioning as a pronoun. drag/drag, other than being exotic, works fine in place of a pronoun. (Though one could argue it is so unique itās more akin to a nickname, but thatās another discussion to be had.) If you instead said your pronouns were that/that, and being serious about it, it would likely be accepted. Sure, you could argue itās a line being drawn elsewhere, but itās not on the matter of identity.
I know numerous people that use fae/faer pronouns, some friends. Fairies arenāt real, either. Does that mean people should be allowed to make those same arguments, be allowed to openly be disrespectful and arguing against the use of those pronouns, in a space that explicitly asks you to respect them? No, of course not. Admittedly, I donāt know anyone who isnāt also okay with certain non-neopronouns being used for them as well, but if they werenāt, I personally wouldnāt think much about it and just use them.
Voluntary interaction, especially when it includes:
Inclusive language and behavior,
Welcoming attitude and approach,
Rational debate and discussion,
Genuine exchanges of ideas,
What is Unacceptable
Authoritarianism, or the spread of behavior that is designed to overturn the standards described so far
You could say thatās misleadingly trimmed. I was mainly just trying to make a point: Just because something is according to the written rules doesnāt make it right. Also, youāre currently coming into a space and violating its community standards, and no one is banning you, nor should they, I think. That is one way you can wind up talking with people even if at the outset they may not agree with you on everything.
If you said your pronouns were 19 characters long, then one would argue that it is no longer functioning as a pronoun.
You donāt get to decide what identities / pronouns are valid or which rules apply to you because you think you made a good point.
See how that works?
My point was that theyāre exercising judgement already, as you would to my requested pronouns, because of course they are. Everyone whoās doing moderation has to exercise judgement.
youāre currently coming into a space and violating its community standards
If Iām truly violating db0ās community standards, then I would like to know. And looking at the (A)CoC, I donāt think I am.
See how that works?
āMy pronouns are the entire bee movie script.ā
āMy pronouns are they/them'); DROP TABLE Pronouns;--ā
āMy pronouns are an hour of silence followed by an ear-shattering scream.ā
Obviously there is a limit to what is reasonable to use as a (neo)pronoun, in line with the purpose of personal pronouns, and drag/drag is very much within acceptable limits, wheras āthatsaspicymeatball/thatsaspicymeatballā is not. Our opinions might differ, and thatās okay, but youāre not making a good argument for your side.
Making a āpronounā that is a nickname makes it not a pronoun, grammatically. Also, this person isnāt actually a dragon, and them insisting that they are turns it into something very different from a person who wants to be referred to as a different gender or intersex or however they express themselves.
You could say that those are irrelevant issues, and the issue of length is a critical one, of course. Like you said I think our opinions are just different about it.
All thatās being asked for is to accept everyoneās pronouns. If you think someone is using joke pronouns ā which again drag/drag is exotic but literally no extra effort to type than they/them ā then you can report and let the mods and admins deal with it. Arguing āI donāt need to respect this personās pronouns because dragons arenāt realā is where you step into the realm of rule-breaking in this instance.
Feel free to read some of the experiences and opinions of other trans people in this thread. Notably, we donāt all agree, but itās not all that out there as youāre making it seem.
I think thatās the crux of the matter. Iām pretty confident that the person with the nick ādragonfuckerā who identifies as a dragon and wants to use ādragā as their pronouns and also causes all kinds of other drama, is using joke pronouns. My reaction to it is pretty much the same as your reaction to the āthatsaspicymeatballā pronoun. Youāre welcome to your opinion and to treat them any way you want to, but nothing I am saying would translate in any way to someone who wasnāt an internet stranger with about 10 different red flags that they were trolling.
If Iām truly violating db0ās community standards, then I would like to know. And looking at the (A)CoC, I donāt think I am.
Yes, but PugJesus truly didnāt think he was violating the community standards. Heās been explaining himself here, and getting treated like āthe enemyā mostly because heās trying to protect your community against someone he thinks is just trolling you and trying to hold you up to ridicule.
My point with this part was that there are communities that start jumping on the banhammer as soon as some reading of the community rules could define a person as the enemy, and that feels very different from the getting-banned side than it does from the banning-the-enemies side. You can probably imagine how it would feel if you got instance banned for the conversation weāve had so far.
This is not the first time the drag/drag pronouns person came up (currently not sure what name theyāre going by) and it looks like the admins have previously made the decision to back them. Heck, perhaps to them, itās a good way to weed out people who canāt understand why the rules are the way they are. Just like someoneās ethnicity, age or appearance is irrelevant to discussions, neither are their identity or pronouns. If PugJesus is the person that got banned, then it appears they have yet to understand what they did wrong, and the ban appears to be warranted.
Alright I suppose it technically is censorship. Iām not a native English speaking person. You certainly shouldnāt be surprised about a communityās rules being enforced, though. I donāt think it would be sensible to complain about ācensorshipā if (as an example) one is spouting bigoted nonsense at family dinner and is getting thrown out the house as a result.
I would say this is more like being told āNo prejudiceā at Thanksgiving Dinner, and then being thrown out for saying that mashed potatoes were a mistake of god.
It is technically prejudiced (against mashed potatoes), but it is not the assumption most people would have upon being told āNo prejudiceā. Likewise, being told āDonāt discriminate against anyoneās gender identityā does not, for many, call to mind āDonāt say people canāt be dragons or that dragons arenāt real, they can be dragons if they wantā.
I care about issues of censorship and trolling, and the social contract on the network, thatās the only reason I am in this discussion. I think the whole ācall me dragā thing is not worth that much attention, yes, but banning a bunch of people for saying dragons arenāt real sort of drew my attention to it.
I donāt know. It is your instance. You can do what you like with it, but keep in mind that not everyone who is obeying the rules to the letter is your friend.
100%, but everyone who disobeys this rule has taken it on themselves to decide which identities are valid and which arenāt, and thatās a dangerous precedent
It isnāt censorship if you get your post / comment removed or banned for breaking a rule. Thatās just the moderators / admins doing their job. And thereās a subtext to saying ādragons arenāt realā, which is āI donāt think I need to respect this personās identity or pronounsā. Thatās why itās gatekeeping. You donāt get to decide what identities / pronouns are valid or which rules apply to you because you think you made a good point.
Sure it is.
By my reading of the db0 terms of service, youāve broken them here, because you are advocating for systems of authoritarian control and against the open discussion of ideas. Would you support banning your user from db0 so we canāt have this conversation? Is that censorship?
I donāt think you should get banned, of course. Because youāre clearly talking in good faith, and I like being able to talk with people, even when I disagree with them. I just would have a wish that the network as a whole generally works like that.
But the blahaj admins do! If I showed up and said my pronouns were āthatsaspicymeatball,ā they would decide that wasnāt valid. They would not ban people for not using that as my pronouns, or for discussing the issue. Theyāve just decided to make their judgement call in one particular place instead of another. Thatās fine, of course, but then mechanically enforcing that everyone has to act in exact accordance with where they drew the line, even though thereās room for reasonable disagreement, is what will get people talking about you on PTB.
The reality of human life is that people look at things differently sometimes. I get wanting to protect your space against ignorance or people who will make someone feel unwelcome. But this is taking it to an extreme, forcing everyone to look at things in exactly the same chosen way, which is tearing down the thing youāre trying to accomplish, I think.
Does db0 have a ToS? I can see an āAnarchist Code of Conductā, which seems to only support my points. In addition, db0 Lemmy has its own rules that could be seen as censorship just the same. Pointing out either instanceās rules existing presumably doesnāt imply that Iām advocating for authoritarian control or against discussion of ideas.
If you said your pronouns were 19 characters long, then one would argue that it is no longer functioning as a pronoun. drag/drag, other than being exotic, works fine in place of a pronoun. (Though one could argue it is so unique itās more akin to a nickname, but thatās another discussion to be had.) If you instead said your pronouns were that/that, and being serious about it, it would likely be accepted. Sure, you could argue itās a line being drawn elsewhere, but itās not on the matter of identity.
I know numerous people that use fae/faer pronouns, some friends. Fairies arenāt real, either. Does that mean people should be allowed to make those same arguments, be allowed to openly be disrespectful and arguing against the use of those pronouns, in a space that explicitly asks you to respect them? No, of course not. Admittedly, I donāt know anyone who isnāt also okay with certain non-neopronouns being used for them as well, but if they werenāt, I personally wouldnāt think much about it and just use them.
In the code of conduct is:
You could say thatās misleadingly trimmed. I was mainly just trying to make a point: Just because something is according to the written rules doesnāt make it right. Also, youāre currently coming into a space and violating its community standards, and no one is banning you, nor should they, I think. That is one way you can wind up talking with people even if at the outset they may not agree with you on everything.
You donāt get to decide what identities / pronouns are valid or which rules apply to you because you think you made a good point.
See how that works?
My point was that theyāre exercising judgement already, as you would to my requested pronouns, because of course they are. Everyone whoās doing moderation has to exercise judgement.
If Iām truly violating db0ās community standards, then I would like to know. And looking at the (A)CoC, I donāt think I am.
āMy pronouns are the entire bee movie script.ā
āMy pronouns are
they/them'); DROP TABLE Pronouns;--āāMy pronouns are an hour of silence followed by an ear-shattering scream.ā
Obviously there is a limit to what is reasonable to use as a (neo)pronoun, in line with the purpose of personal pronouns, and drag/drag is very much within acceptable limits, wheras āthatsaspicymeatball/thatsaspicymeatballā is not. Our opinions might differ, and thatās okay, but youāre not making a good argument for your side.
Making a āpronounā that is a nickname makes it not a pronoun, grammatically. Also, this person isnāt actually a dragon, and them insisting that they are turns it into something very different from a person who wants to be referred to as a different gender or intersex or however they express themselves.
You could say that those are irrelevant issues, and the issue of length is a critical one, of course. Like you said I think our opinions are just different about it.
All thatās being asked for is to accept everyoneās pronouns. If you think someone is using joke pronouns ā which again drag/drag is exotic but literally no extra effort to type than they/them ā then you can report and let the mods and admins deal with it. Arguing āI donāt need to respect this personās pronouns because dragons arenāt realā is where you step into the realm of rule-breaking in this instance.
Feel free to read some of the experiences and opinions of other trans people in this thread. Notably, we donāt all agree, but itās not all that out there as youāre making it seem.
I think thatās the crux of the matter. Iām pretty confident that the person with the nick ādragonfuckerā who identifies as a dragon and wants to use ādragā as their pronouns and also causes all kinds of other drama, is using joke pronouns. My reaction to it is pretty much the same as your reaction to the āthatsaspicymeatballā pronoun. Youāre welcome to your opinion and to treat them any way you want to, but nothing I am saying would translate in any way to someone who wasnāt an internet stranger with about 10 different red flags that they were trolling.
Yes, but PugJesus truly didnāt think he was violating the community standards. Heās been explaining himself here, and getting treated like āthe enemyā mostly because heās trying to protect your community against someone he thinks is just trolling you and trying to hold you up to ridicule.
My point with this part was that there are communities that start jumping on the banhammer as soon as some reading of the community rules could define a person as the enemy, and that feels very different from the getting-banned side than it does from the banning-the-enemies side. You can probably imagine how it would feel if you got instance banned for the conversation weāve had so far.
This is not the first time the drag/drag pronouns person came up (currently not sure what name theyāre going by) and it looks like the admins have previously made the decision to back them. Heck, perhaps to them, itās a good way to weed out people who canāt understand why the rules are the way they are. Just like someoneās ethnicity, age or appearance is irrelevant to discussions, neither are their identity or pronouns. If PugJesus is the person that got banned, then it appears they have yet to understand what they did wrong, and the ban appears to be warranted.
Nobody asked him too, and itās quite paternalistic to believe that itās needed.
ā¦
Alright I suppose it technically is censorship. Iām not a native English speaking person. You certainly shouldnāt be surprised about a communityās rules being enforced, though. I donāt think it would be sensible to complain about ācensorshipā if (as an example) one is spouting bigoted nonsense at family dinner and is getting thrown out the house as a result.
I would say this is more like being told āNo prejudiceā at Thanksgiving Dinner, and then being thrown out for saying that mashed potatoes were a mistake of god.
It is technically prejudiced (against mashed potatoes), but it is not the assumption most people would have upon being told āNo prejudiceā. Likewise, being told āDonāt discriminate against anyoneās gender identityā does not, for many, call to mind āDonāt say people canāt be dragons or that dragons arenāt real, they can be dragons if they wantā.