You’re taking the worst possible caricature of the opposition and applying it to every single person on the spectrum of “right wing” out there. There are large swaths of people who are undecided and you’re actively giving them reasons to not like us.
As I said, I couldn’t give less of a shit about the religious who will literally never be “okay” with the community. My entire point is that there are millions of people who sit in the middle. Your actions sway them, and that’s all that matters. You’re spending your effort to get back at the people with the most hardline stance, and all you’re succeeding in is alienating the people who could easily agree with you.
You’re taking the worst possible caricature of the opposition and applying it to every single person on the spectrum of “right wing” out there.
i guess my only further comment is: yeah, i am. what reason have i been given by any conservative since Stonewall—no matter how “open” they are to not considering us faggots—to not do that?
i honestly think this position is naive at best, and when it comes from a queer person it generally indicates a failure to look at the history of conservatism as it relates to queerness. i just don’t think you should care about anything these people feel about us—nor should it ever be your priority to appeal to them, no matter how numerous they are. and even being apathetic to most conservatives is probably too nice, because they certainly do not turn the other cheek when it comes to how they feel about us.
but also: you have not demonstrated this “moderate middle” of sorts exists, much less cares about any of what you’re talking about here—and i just categorically do not think what is allowed at pride should be tailored to a hypothetical person when there are very real people who get joy out of openly being who they are and have a long history of coexisting at pride with no issue.
There are lots of moderate middle sorts who accept gay men, but think that the trans agenda is a threat to their children. I suppose we should throw them under the bus, too. Maybe then daddy will love us.
You realize that conservatives aren’t the only voting bloc that votes republican, right? You understand that, yes? Genuinely? You understand the concept of moderates?
Additionally, I can agree that they should be allowed at pride, but I don’t have to like it. I’m not arguing in favor of banning it, just that I personally don’t like seeing it.
I believe you are laboring under the misconception that moderate Republicans can be swayed out of supporting queer exterminationists by appeals to queer people’s humanity and decency. This is not the case.
My dad loves me, his openly queer child. Like, really genuinely loves me. I know because he’s forgiven me for doing some truly awful shit to him. He’s an amazing dad in some respects. He does not think there should be any legal prohibitions on queerness, and I don’t think he cares much one way or the other about queer people. He also votes for queer exterminationists on the regular.
It’s not as though I’ve never tried to point out how this hurts me, either. I have made it very clear to him that I feel betrayed by him continuing to vote for people who want me dead. I have told him directly that it endangers me. He apparently does not believe that I personally am in enough danger to warrant him changing his voting patterns, or perhaps he believes that the alternatives are more dangerous to me somehow. I’m not entirely sure.
Granted, I don’t know if my dad counts as a “moderate Republican.” He considers himself a libertarian. But I believe he is the sort of person you are talking about: a fence-sitter. Someone who isn’t really an ally but doesn’t outright hate us either. And I think his response is typical of those people.
Some people will simply never, ever give a shit about something until it becomes their problem. This is how you get genocides: Not by the majority being violently bigoted, but by the majority being apathetic.
What do you do, then, if you can’t appeal to their compassion? The only option I can see is to become a group that is Not To Be Fucked With. You hit us, we’ll hit back harder. Bigots won’t let us live and moderates won’t help us thrive. All we have is one another, and we have to unite and rally around our shared interests in order to save ourselves. Respectability politics only divides us, and we can’t afford that.
They would not be agreeing with us. They would be agreeing with a facile image that you would have us project in place of us. That’s not okay. If we have to pretend to be something other than what we are for their support, then they are not our allies!
You seem to have the view that people are kinky just to be difficult or something. You don’t accept people telling you that is what they are. So you’re never going to see eye to eye with the people who are being marginalized.
My guy, you’re assuming absolutely everyone at pride is into the same kinky shit you are. Just because you’re gay, doesn’t mean you’re kinky and just because you’re kinky doesn’t mean you’re gay. You’re putting them together as if they’re the same and that if you don’t support kink in public then you don’t support gay people at all. This is incorrect.
No, I am not. You are assuming that kink is an affectation that can just be taken off like a rainbow flag button. I’m not saying that you don’t support gay people, I’m saying you only support them if they are not kinky! Tell me otherwise.
You’re both welcome to have your own opinion, but please do not insult each other because you have a differing opinion on what behavior is acceptable in public
I wasn’t insulting anyone. I forget exactly what the comment said, but I have not targeted any specific person in my responses. If it was one where I said “you” I was not specifically talking in regards to the person I was replying to, it was likely an example and not intended to target any specific person.
Things were getting a little heated between you two. Your removed comment is accessible via the modlog if you want specifics (moderation is transparent here), but mostly I just want to be sure we’re keeping things around here nice
When the word “you” is used in a sentence, it can have different meanings depending on the context. While it typically refers to the person or people being directly addressed, there are instances where “you” is used more generally as a way to represent any individual or individuals, often as an example. As you may not know, this usage is known as the generic “you.”
The generic “you” is a way of speaking that addresses people in a broader sense, without specifically targeting any particular individual. It is often used to discuss general truths, common experiences, or provide advice or instructions.
If you need further explanation as to how English conversations work, do let me know!
I read your comment in the modlog. My response would be that no one’s boundaries are violated merely by seeing a person who is visibly kinky in public, any more than they are violated by seeing someone who is visibly queer in public. For more in-depth reasoning as to why, I would refer you to this Tumblr post: https://i.imgur.com/ZuTbOq0.png
To be clear about something, I am responding to most of the things you say here because, well, you’re a gay furry. I’m a queer kinkster. People like you and I need one another, because if we fringe weirdos don’t defend one another, who will? I’d like to believe that we’re on the same side. I know I’ll fight for your rights when it comes down to it. I would do it without reciprocation, but I hope you can be convinced to do the same for me.
I never claimed I was being forced to participate, only that it does, in fact, violate boundaries to do so.
There’s a massive difference between “furry” and “kinky.” Walking around in a dog costume does not immediately mean it’s for kinky or sexual reasons, and to assume so, while not a huge leap considering how much of the fandom is pretty open about their sexuality, is just largely incorrect. I’m personally not one to engage in a lot of that behavior, so I don’t appreciate the comparison. The same can not be said for blatant kink gear.
Again, I want to reiterate: you do you. I won’t stop anyone from going out like that, freedom of speech and expression and all that, but I certainly won’t respect or associate with them.
If someone is alienated by seeing a person in a pup mask marching at pride, they were never an ally in the first place and have a lot of work to do to deal with their internalized sex negativity/queerphobia before they can become one.
You do realize, don’t you, that the people who don’t necessarily want us dead but do want us to suppress ourselves are still homophobes, right? “I don’t mind gay people, I just don’t want them shoving it down my throat” is also homophobia. Those people are also our enemies who must be fought.
There’s a secret the right knows that the left (or at least liberals) still haven’t cottoned onto: Respectability politics is bullshit. You cannot push someone to the left or right by acting too radically right or left. (They’ll claim that by being loudly left you are pushing average people to the right, but this a lie and they know it. They are merely trying to shut you up.) Moreover, the louder and with more conviction you say something, the more the general public will agree with you. Why do you think election lies are so popular? They’re horseshit, but Trump says them with his whole chest. An unapologetic lie is more appealing than a meek truth.
If you still think that being “respectable” matters, consider, again, Trump. Everything about him seems like it should alienate voters. He breaks every norm of our political system. He says the quiet part loud. He’s openly bigoted and got caught on tape admitting to sexual assault. He’s a boorish, unpolished moron with no filter. And people fucking eat it up. People don’t just not care about respectability, they actually respect people more when they flout it.
That’s why we have to be loud and freaky and in-your-face. No movement has ever gotten anywhere without fringe radicals and militants pushing the boundaries of what was acceptable. To quote Assata Shakur, “Nobody in the world, nobody in history, has ever gotten their freedom by appealing to the moral sense of the people who were oppressing them.” Some ideas are not to be negotiated with; they are to be defeated. Queerphobia is one of those ideas.
The establishment knows the radicals are the dangerous ones, too. The ones who will actually change things. There’s a reason you’re taught about MLK in school but not Malcom X. But remember–even MLK, the most respectable and peaceable black man imaginable, was still too radical for white people. They still killed him.
It does not matter how respectable you are. It will not save you.
You’re taking the worst possible caricature of the opposition and applying it to every single person on the spectrum of “right wing” out there. There are large swaths of people who are undecided and you’re actively giving them reasons to not like us.
As I said, I couldn’t give less of a shit about the religious who will literally never be “okay” with the community. My entire point is that there are millions of people who sit in the middle. Your actions sway them, and that’s all that matters. You’re spending your effort to get back at the people with the most hardline stance, and all you’re succeeding in is alienating the people who could easily agree with you.
i guess my only further comment is: yeah, i am. what reason have i been given by any conservative since Stonewall—no matter how “open” they are to not considering us faggots—to not do that?
i honestly think this position is naive at best, and when it comes from a queer person it generally indicates a failure to look at the history of conservatism as it relates to queerness. i just don’t think you should care about anything these people feel about us—nor should it ever be your priority to appeal to them, no matter how numerous they are. and even being apathetic to most conservatives is probably too nice, because they certainly do not turn the other cheek when it comes to how they feel about us.
but also: you have not demonstrated this “moderate middle” of sorts exists, much less cares about any of what you’re talking about here—and i just categorically do not think what is allowed at pride should be tailored to a hypothetical person when there are very real people who get joy out of openly being who they are and have a long history of coexisting at pride with no issue.
There are lots of moderate middle sorts who accept gay men, but think that the trans agenda is a threat to their children. I suppose we should throw them under the bus, too. Maybe then daddy will love us.
You realize that conservatives aren’t the only voting bloc that votes republican, right? You understand that, yes? Genuinely? You understand the concept of moderates?
Additionally, I can agree that they should be allowed at pride, but I don’t have to like it. I’m not arguing in favor of banning it, just that I personally don’t like seeing it.
I believe you are laboring under the misconception that moderate Republicans can be swayed out of supporting queer exterminationists by appeals to queer people’s humanity and decency. This is not the case.
My dad loves me, his openly queer child. Like, really genuinely loves me. I know because he’s forgiven me for doing some truly awful shit to him. He’s an amazing dad in some respects. He does not think there should be any legal prohibitions on queerness, and I don’t think he cares much one way or the other about queer people. He also votes for queer exterminationists on the regular.
It’s not as though I’ve never tried to point out how this hurts me, either. I have made it very clear to him that I feel betrayed by him continuing to vote for people who want me dead. I have told him directly that it endangers me. He apparently does not believe that I personally am in enough danger to warrant him changing his voting patterns, or perhaps he believes that the alternatives are more dangerous to me somehow. I’m not entirely sure.
Granted, I don’t know if my dad counts as a “moderate Republican.” He considers himself a libertarian. But I believe he is the sort of person you are talking about: a fence-sitter. Someone who isn’t really an ally but doesn’t outright hate us either. And I think his response is typical of those people.
Some people will simply never, ever give a shit about something until it becomes their problem. This is how you get genocides: Not by the majority being violently bigoted, but by the majority being apathetic.
What do you do, then, if you can’t appeal to their compassion? The only option I can see is to become a group that is Not To Be Fucked With. You hit us, we’ll hit back harder. Bigots won’t let us live and moderates won’t help us thrive. All we have is one another, and we have to unite and rally around our shared interests in order to save ourselves. Respectability politics only divides us, and we can’t afford that.
They would not be agreeing with us. They would be agreeing with a facile image that you would have us project in place of us. That’s not okay. If we have to pretend to be something other than what we are for their support, then they are not our allies!
You seem to have the view that people are kinky just to be difficult or something. You don’t accept people telling you that is what they are. So you’re never going to see eye to eye with the people who are being marginalized.
My guy, you’re assuming absolutely everyone at pride is into the same kinky shit you are. Just because you’re gay, doesn’t mean you’re kinky and just because you’re kinky doesn’t mean you’re gay. You’re putting them together as if they’re the same and that if you don’t support kink in public then you don’t support gay people at all. This is incorrect.
No, I am not. You are assuming that kink is an affectation that can just be taken off like a rainbow flag button. I’m not saying that you don’t support gay people, I’m saying you only support them if they are not kinky! Tell me otherwise.
Removed by mod
You’re both welcome to have your own opinion, but please do not insult each other because you have a differing opinion on what behavior is acceptable in public
I wasn’t insulting anyone. I forget exactly what the comment said, but I have not targeted any specific person in my responses. If it was one where I said “you” I was not specifically talking in regards to the person I was replying to, it was likely an example and not intended to target any specific person.
Things were getting a little heated between you two. Your removed comment is accessible via the modlog if you want specifics (moderation is transparent here), but mostly I just want to be sure we’re keeping things around here nice
You said that you would not respect me because I am an inconsiderate asshole. The discussion is over, but I’m not about to let you lie about it.
When the word “you” is used in a sentence, it can have different meanings depending on the context. While it typically refers to the person or people being directly addressed, there are instances where “you” is used more generally as a way to represent any individual or individuals, often as an example. As you may not know, this usage is known as the generic “you.”
The generic “you” is a way of speaking that addresses people in a broader sense, without specifically targeting any particular individual. It is often used to discuss general truths, common experiences, or provide advice or instructions.
If you need further explanation as to how English conversations work, do let me know!
I read your comment in the modlog. My response would be that no one’s boundaries are violated merely by seeing a person who is visibly kinky in public, any more than they are violated by seeing someone who is visibly queer in public. For more in-depth reasoning as to why, I would refer you to this Tumblr post: https://i.imgur.com/ZuTbOq0.png
To be clear about something, I am responding to most of the things you say here because, well, you’re a gay furry. I’m a queer kinkster. People like you and I need one another, because if we fringe weirdos don’t defend one another, who will? I’d like to believe that we’re on the same side. I know I’ll fight for your rights when it comes down to it. I would do it without reciprocation, but I hope you can be convinced to do the same for me.
I never claimed I was being forced to participate, only that it does, in fact, violate boundaries to do so.
There’s a massive difference between “furry” and “kinky.” Walking around in a dog costume does not immediately mean it’s for kinky or sexual reasons, and to assume so, while not a huge leap considering how much of the fandom is pretty open about their sexuality, is just largely incorrect. I’m personally not one to engage in a lot of that behavior, so I don’t appreciate the comparison. The same can not be said for blatant kink gear.
Again, I want to reiterate: you do you. I won’t stop anyone from going out like that, freedom of speech and expression and all that, but I certainly won’t respect or associate with them.
If someone is alienated by seeing a person in a pup mask marching at pride, they were never an ally in the first place and have a lot of work to do to deal with their internalized sex negativity/queerphobia before they can become one.
You do realize, don’t you, that the people who don’t necessarily want us dead but do want us to suppress ourselves are still homophobes, right? “I don’t mind gay people, I just don’t want them shoving it down my throat” is also homophobia. Those people are also our enemies who must be fought.
There’s a secret the right knows that the left (or at least liberals) still haven’t cottoned onto: Respectability politics is bullshit. You cannot push someone to the left or right by acting too radically right or left. (They’ll claim that by being loudly left you are pushing average people to the right, but this a lie and they know it. They are merely trying to shut you up.) Moreover, the louder and with more conviction you say something, the more the general public will agree with you. Why do you think election lies are so popular? They’re horseshit, but Trump says them with his whole chest. An unapologetic lie is more appealing than a meek truth.
If you still think that being “respectable” matters, consider, again, Trump. Everything about him seems like it should alienate voters. He breaks every norm of our political system. He says the quiet part loud. He’s openly bigoted and got caught on tape admitting to sexual assault. He’s a boorish, unpolished moron with no filter. And people fucking eat it up. People don’t just not care about respectability, they actually respect people more when they flout it.
That’s why we have to be loud and freaky and in-your-face. No movement has ever gotten anywhere without fringe radicals and militants pushing the boundaries of what was acceptable. To quote Assata Shakur, “Nobody in the world, nobody in history, has ever gotten their freedom by appealing to the moral sense of the people who were oppressing them.” Some ideas are not to be negotiated with; they are to be defeated. Queerphobia is one of those ideas.
The establishment knows the radicals are the dangerous ones, too. The ones who will actually change things. There’s a reason you’re taught about MLK in school but not Malcom X. But remember–even MLK, the most respectable and peaceable black man imaginable, was still too radical for white people. They still killed him.
It does not matter how respectable you are. It will not save you.