• IzzyScissor@lemmy.world
    1331·
    10 months ago

    If “your man card can be revoked” then you understand that gender is performative and conditional.

    • Mango@lemmy.world
      7·
      10 months ago

      I understand that gender is made up and doesn’t matter. There is nothing girly or manly.

    • Thrashy@lemmy.world
      2·
      10 months ago

      For some the optionality of it is less important than the notion that if it’s performative, you can be bad at it and therefore make yourself an acceptable target for abuse, and besides that the idea that some roles can be restricted to only those with a certain set of physical characteristics is deeply ingrained in many, be that in terms gender, career, or what have you.

    • Lemminary@lemmy.world
      652·
      10 months ago

      This is why I like it when I see men wear skirts/kilts, wear eyeliner and/or paint their nails. It’s not something I’m into but I think it’s cool when I see it.

        • NegativeInf@lemmy.world
          541·
          10 months ago

          Is it tho? Being gay is liking other men. Why must those things be feminine things? Who decided? Warriors wore war paint. Now covering your face in whatever you like is for women. Pink used to be a boy’s color. Lesley was a boy’s name. We’re all just people doing shit.

          • Alue42@kbin.social
            221·
            10 months ago

            The instant I saw this picture, I thought of the Parks and Rec scene:
            “That’s not really the attitude I expect from an award winner.”
            “Everything I do is the attitude of an award winner, because I have won an award.”

            That should be the case for the picture “Everything I do is manly because I am a man.” And the same for the person you are responding to “Everything I do is gay/straight/other because I am gay/straight/other.” That one part of someone’s identity has no bearing on defining the rest of them - ie, being gay means that he’s attracted to men but doesn’t define what he wears, how he acts, etc.

          • Instigate@aussie.zone
            191·
            10 months ago

            High-heeled shoes were invented in Persia for cavalrymen and later used by sharpshooters. Men wear flowing cloth garments like skirts/dresses in many extant cultures. Men used to play all of the female roles in Western plays, in full clothing and makeup. Men have been removing and shaping body hair since the ancient Egyptians, Romans and Greeks. Even as recently as the 1970s men would wear cropped tops and short-shorts.

            There are so many examples to deconstruct things that we view as feminine or masculine as being entirely arbitrary, culturally-locked and era specific. It’s all socially constructed, and therefore can be deconstructed - but only if you’re willing or able to engage in reflection.

        • TheDoozer@lemmy.world
          221·
          10 months ago

          You are conflating two very different things. About half of the gay men I’ve known were fairly or very masculine, they just were attracted to men. And I’ve known plenty of straight guys that ranged from feminine to downright flamboyant. The way you tell if someone likes men or not is either if they tell you or flirt with you, and if they’re a man, then they are gay (or bi or whatever non-strictly-straight flavor).

          Incidentally, most of the (non-trans) men I’ve known that were feminine or flamboyant were artists of some flavor, which tend to be a group with less inhibitions, so I would guess there are plenty of non-artist men that would show more femininity if they felt more comfortable with doing so.

        • captainlezbian@lemmy.world
          14·
          10 months ago

          Nope, it’s more common with those groups but gay men are into other men, what they do is unrelated. Goth is a whole thing as is Scottish. And trans is not identifying with the sex you were assigned at birth. Part of the reason why these groups are more likely to do these things is because of those assumptions. If a straight cis man just feels like he likes the way he looks better dressed like that that’s cool and while people may make assumptions they aren’t necessarily true.

        • TheHarpyEagle@lemmy.world
          111·
          10 months ago

          Anyone can wear makeup or nail polish or wear a skirt, doesn’t say anything about their sexuality. Nor do all gay men do those things (I’d hazard that most don’t).

        • saltesc@lemmy.world
          113·
          10 months ago

          Think of it this way…

          You’re the only person on earth. Does your gender matter anymore? Hair colour or length? Cock or boob size? What you put on your face or wear? Whether you like sewing, math, fishing, dancing, or frolicking through a field? No one’s there. You don’t have an identity because you’re never being identified by anyone. You’re not goth, gay, feminine, trans, or Scottish—you don’t know what those things are and actually never will because they won’t be invented. I mean, you could invent them by some astronomically improbably chance, but how, why, and what for? They’re all made up things along with all the socially expected tropes that come with those “identities”.

          So what you perceive as “gay” is just nothing for a lot of people. They wouldn’t have considered it, nor would care, you’d be struggling to hold their attention as you tried to explain it and they’d forget it in moments anyway. These people say “I am me”, not “I am a…”

          • captainlezbian@lemmy.world
            4·
            10 months ago

            Some of those things wouldn’t exist anymore but others while the words and grouping may not the concept they represent would. I am gay, not because society puts me in that box, but because society has drawn a box around where I sit and given it the label gay. If I were the only person I would still crave the touch of another woman and not of a man. I may not feel insecure about the size of my breasts but I’d be uncomfortable if I didn’t have them.

    • southsamurai@sh.itjust.works
      463·
      10 months ago

      I’ve had that discussion before.

      Gender roles, and thus gender presentation, are cultural for the most part. Some are common enough to multiple cultures that it approaches being just human culture.

      But even in western (us, canada, europe) cultures, there have been periods where the presentation of masculinity would be considered feminine in other eras. So gender roles & presentation aren’t fixed in a given culture.

      If I, regardless of what my genitals are, present as a man, then I am effectively the same as whatever a man is in my culture. If that also includes taking on the gender roles of “man”, then that’s another layer.

      However, this also means that when enough men shift their presentation and roles, anyone holding to the previous roles and presentation are now “less” a man in the cultural sense. It really, truly is a majority rules situation, and the minority are what get relabeled (usually).

      The more men that reject an arbitrary paradigm of masculinity, the more we shift to an open, loose definition of what is and isn’t masculine, with the eventual possibility that gender becomes so loose in definition that masculine and feminine become irrelevant terms, if the labels also lose relevance to the majority. And I believe that if enough people reject fixed gender paradigms, the terms would inevitably cease to matter.

      I mean, we’ve already started to add qualifiers. We have traditional gender roles as a specific thing as separate from current gender roles.

      This isn’t to deny that hormones and genetics will push people into behaviors that are linked to gender because they’re mostly linked to sex. But even with those pressures, we usually have room how we express those behaviors.

      It’s why I always tell folks, particularly younger folks, to not worry much about labels. Be who you are, as long as who you are isn’t a douche, and you’ll eventually find the labels that feel right. And there’s a good chance you’ll end up shifting your self over time anyway, which is fine. As long as you don’t fixate on labels as defining the person, the self, you can freely shift labels as the self shifts. It’s when you pick a label and think that you have to fit it in all ways, forever, that you run into trouble.

      So, fuck yeah. If you feel “girly”, be girly. Enjoy that shit. Be your best self. It’ll eventually work out :)

      • captainlezbian@lemmy.world
        11·
        10 months ago

        Exactly. I think labels are useful as communication tools, but they’re an active hindrance to self exploration. One of the greatest things I ever did for myself was completely setting them aside when exploring my gender until I knew what I wanted. It was a lot easier to run off a checklist of options than to sort through a variety of labels, even when I fell solidly into some labels.

  • TxzK@lemmy.zip
    522·
    10 months ago

    It’s often time better to not just argue with these asshats. Waste of your time and energy while achieving less than a dog barking at a tree.

  • captainlezbian@lemmy.world
    503·
    10 months ago

    Ok but also you aren’t nonbinary just because you’re an effeminate man. They’re different things entirely

    • tan00k@lemmy.world
      191·
      10 months ago

      You can’t gatekeep being nonbinary. Not unless you’re prepared to define it explicitly, which will exclude many people - and not everyone will agree with your definition either.

      • captainlezbian@lemmy.world
        101·
        10 months ago

        I said just because. Not that effeminate men aren’t capable of being nonbinary, merely that it is not sufficient (or necessary for that matter). You have to like actually not identify as entirely a man.

        But it’s not my place to fight I’m very much in the binary side of transness.

        • tan00k@lemmy.world
          42·
          10 months ago

          Whose authority says it’s not sufficient? If they say they are nonbinary, they are nonbinary.

          • ferret@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
            121·
            10 months ago

            OP means “don’t assume someone is non-binary because they are an effeminate man” and not “you aren’t non-binary just because you are an effeminate man”

            • tan00k@lemmy.world
              5·
              10 months ago

              I suppose that’s possible, but the thing you say OP is not saying is literally a quote. So at best it’s worded poorly.

              • ferret@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
                91·
                10 months ago

                Their intent with the message was clearly less-than-literal. They tried to clear things up in replies but failed. I think it is quite clear that they meant no one any harm, and simply failed to convey their idea properly.

                • The_Lopen@sh.itjust.works
                  21·
                  10 months ago

                  The comment itself should be edited to reflect the original intent, then. People can’t just say stupid and hyperbolic things and not be held socially accountable.

          • Sadbutdru@sopuli.xyz
            3·
            10 months ago

            This is a miscommunication, you two are not really in disagreement as far as I can see. If someone {presents as an effeminate man} AND {they say they’re non-binary} => {they are non-binary}. However if someone {presents as an effeminate man} AND does NOT {say they’re non-binary}… Then it’s not sufficient.

      • LainTrain@lemmy.dbzer0.com
        6·
        10 months ago

        Are you transphobic as well? I’m genuinely curious. Or does transgender count as “real” in your view because it does have a far more strict definition?

          • LainTrain@lemmy.dbzer0.com
            21·
            10 months ago

            I am too tbh, I think the weird thing is enbies to me are inherently a sort of political commentary through identity on gender and our relationship to it, unless I’m just wrong.

            I think the whole issue is somewhat separate from trans people who mostly are just people with a mental neurodivergence/disorder called gender dysphoria that causes them anguish and is caused by their body’s sex and their brain’s innate sense of sex don’t agree and therefore they seek medical treatments like HRT and surgeries and documentation changes to help them perceive themselves and be perceived by others as members of the target sex as much as is humanly possible.

            Their political angle is to fight for access to said healthcare to be more common, available through insurance, be taken more seriously with faster wait times and be available to younger people since the effectiveness of a lot of the treatments like hormones depends on the age you start.

            Conflating the two imo is kinda like commentary on attention spans relating to social media and the actual neurological disorder ADHD.

            • MetaCubed@lemmy.world
              1·
              10 months ago

              I think it’s a little “exotic” to call my existence an inherent political commentary. It’s certainly something that can be used to inform political debate, but I believe saying that it’s inherent misses the point that our existence is only political because it’s politicized

              And for what it’s worth, gender dysphoria is also something experienced by nonbinary folks, but it isn’t a requirement of being trans or non-binary either. Some people just don’t experience it and requiring it as a clinical diagnosis is part of the medicalization of our and trans people’s existence as well.

              I don’t really know how to finish this lol, I agree with the rest of your comment. I just wanted to correct what I feel are common misconceptions.

              • LainTrain@lemmy.dbzer0.com
                1·
                10 months ago

                Maybe dysphoria isn’t a precondition to being trans, but I don’t get how.

                What I don’t understand is then why transition? If you’re fine as you are, why the hassle? Just as fashion/identity? Body modding for lulz? Nothing wrong with either but it’s very removed from my XP.

                I only transitioned because I needed to, to me GD is a curse treated with medication and surgeries I couldn’t live without and that’s basically all that being trans is to me. The identity of being trans is defined to me by dysphoria - mental torture associated with one’s birth sex fixed by becoming the other, or as close as possible with current tech.

                Also how does enby dysphoria work? Do you just feel dysphoric about a mix of male and female traits? That’s wild if true.

      • chetradley@lemmy.world
        1·
        10 months ago

        Telling someone whose gender doesn’t conform to the male/female binary view of gender that the term non-binary is a “shit pseudophilosophical concept” that “has no connection to reality” fucking sucks. Either you don’t recognize gender outside of the binary, or you just think these people don’t deserve a way to express and talk about their gender. Either way it’s a garbage take.

  • AItoothbrush@lemmy.zipEnglish
    462·
    10 months ago

    Even tho im a cishet male i can absolutely imagine how freaking annoying these people could be.

  • ULS@lemmy.ml
    414·
    10 months ago

    Homophobes are cute. Me and my homies only jerk off to homophobes. Just like those old WW2 vets that invented the gay leather scene. Except now the kink is to dress up as an Ultra-American instead of a German nazi. I got a 1776 shirt literally just to fuck with.

    (One part humor, one part truth, one part bullshit. If my lame comedy makes anyone angry they aren’t living the life they should be. Treat yo self.)

    • captainlezbian@lemmy.world
      5·
      10 months ago

      As a leather woman I do want people to know how the community actually formed. Motorcycling was a socially acceptable hobby and served two purposes: it as a hobby has just always been useful for men dealing with ptsd who aren’t comfortable with therapy (it’s worse than therapy but it’s better than nothing and it’s not like 1948 Americans were ready to hear that John can’t process that he killed someone and that he fell in love with a soldier who died in his arms), and it served as a convenient excuse to get out of town into the middle of nowhere where nobody will see gay sadomasochism unless they came to see it.

      It’s never been a parody of the right, but it has had parodies of what was expected of them. The Nazi fetishists were different folks usually. Though we did have people wearing parodies of us uniforms

    • Human Penguin@lemmy.cafeEnglish
      111·
      10 months ago

      Historically less so. Even back in the 80s lots of girls i knew and thought of as tom boys. Where forced to dress and act girlie by there parents. Further back you go more limits there were.

      • Monkey With A Shell@lemmy.socdojo.com
        41·
        10 months ago

        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Roosevelt_Longworth

        “I can either run the country or I can attend to Alice, but I cannot possibly do both”

        Chastised by some, loved by others, it depends a lot on the audience. I think overall though women have been given more a pass, pegged as ‘willfull’ or ‘impetuous’ where as with men it’s treated as a flaw that they should be shunned for.

        Think of the differing ways that daddy’s girl and mamma’s boy are perceived to get to what I mean.

    • GiveMemes@jlai.lu
      141·
      10 months ago

      As an amab man with long hair and emotions that is frequently misgenedered (even with facial hair) yall are down voting something that is far too true

        • GiveMemes@jlai.lu
          22·
          10 months ago

          You seem very angry. Is everything alright in your life? I’m sorry that you’re so upset by other people being happy :(

          Enjoy punching holes in your mom’s drywall.

    • TheHarpyEagle@lemmy.world
      102·
      10 months ago

      Yeah, the “can always tell” crowd. AKA “I don’t think this person is attractive enough to be cis.”

      • Fiona@discuss.tchncs.deаҧсуа бызшәа
        7·
        10 months ago

        The scientist in me is sooo tempted by the idea of setting up a website where people have to classify pictures of cis and well-passing trans people by AGAB to really drive the point home that no, those fuckers CANNOT tell. They can usually only tell when the person in question is in the progress of medical transition which is an instance of “no shit Sherlock, why do you think we want to get this done as quickly as possible”. And yes, Enbys are a bit of a different story, but even a lot of them pass very well as the opposite of their AGAB, even though they often don’t even identify as that.

        The big issue with this is that the vast majority of people making those kinds of statements are incapable of thinking rationally and instead just continue being bigots.

      • GiveMemes@jlai.lu
        51·
        10 months ago

        Idk dude I ngl I look like a long-haired Charlie Puth (to the point where different people have told me that I look like him on the same night lmao) but somehow people still get the wrong idea lol.

  • Deadeyegai@lemmy.worldEnglish
    141·
    10 months ago

    Then as a man, I choose to act like a girly-Man©. See? Has Man© and that symbol makes it official. That means I can do anything <‘ronswanson meme.jpg’> Checkmate. Easy victory

  • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
    8·
    10 months ago

    Reactionaries have no underlying principles, they just react, violently in some cases. If you guide them through their own cobbled-together set of values and show the contradictions, they get angry and start yelling, because to them, they are their own moral arbiter and a challenge to their status quo is an enemy.

    Gender is a Social construct and getting upset at people for being outside the bimodal spectrum conservative society expects them to be is utterly pointless, stupid, and harmful.