Can we get a consensus on whether our community should de-federate with servers that host loli? I personally think we should block them, and if that ends up not being the consensus here then I’ll probably sign up on another server. I hope we can all agree to set that boundary though because I like it here and it seems otherwise pretty cool.
Please do not. Although I don’t personally want to see lolicon stuff, many of the servers willing to host it have communities I want to interact with. For instance, burggit.moe is where the touhou communities went and is otherwise a pretty nice instance aside from loli communities.
It is content which, while understandably offensive to some, harms nobody. All fictional porn, no matter how deviant it is, is ultimately more ethical than real porn can be.
It should be up to users to block or hide instances with content they don’t wish to see, and defederation should be reserved for communities that consistently cause interference, not for communities that simply have content which one disagrees with.
This
Yeah its a pretty nice experience on burggit other than the one or two loli communitys (that everyone can easily block for themselves)
why are all of the touhou communites on there
like, that’s weird; there’s tons of lemmy instances that they could have been on, and kbin has a (very inactive) community as well
onto the point:
All fictional porn, no matter how deviant it is, is ultimately more ethical than real porn can be.
This may be true, but you can’t blame many users for being really turned off by it; like I think it’d be perfectly acceptable if most people don’t want to interact with an instance hosting that.
If you don’t like that, then you might have to move to another instance tbh
As I’ve pointed out in a few spots on this post: regardless of your moral stance, loli is considered the same as child porn by many government agencies. You may not be “harming” anyone, but you’re harming the people that host and view that content in a criminal sense.
You got downvoted for telling the truth. This place is the new reddit.
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It should be up to instance admins to decide, since they are ultimately responsible for the things that are hosted/accessible on their server.
I for one would not want to be effectively distributing any porn or loli stuff on my server, so I’ll be defederating from instances that are entirely that.
Loli stuff is illegal though, at least in the United States. Viewing even accidentally can be considered a crime. The OP has a valid point.
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I’ve seen this image where it’s basically a state by state case of legality
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I’m not a lawyer either, but a quick search shows that state law is the thing this could be breaking. It’s not criminally punishable to possess it, but acquiring or distributing it via the internet is potentially illegal. Here’s a page from a Massachusetts lawyer discussing the legality. https://anthonyricciolaw.com/is-lolicon-legal-in-the-us/#:~:text=Under federal law%2C a simple,state laws regarding child pornography.
Edit: apparently that’s only part of the requirements for illegality. The other part is sexuality or not having “value” which is subjective. Either way, it’s a dice roll on criminal acts.
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This server isn’t in the United States.
Why not just leave it up to users on user by user basis? Are we already trying to regulate stuff on this platform? Block stuff if you don’t like it, ignore if not. I’m by no means for loli personally, but that’s going to start a snowball of overstepping and pretty soon it’ll be like R where everything is locked, deleted, blocked, or hidden.
If it’s not illegal, ignore it.
Loli is illegal in some countries. It’s illegal in the US, if that’s where OP is located. Any depiction of a minor in a sexual situation, whether drawn or photographed, is considered child pornography.
it isn’t illegal in the us another comment thread was discussing it
The “slippery slope” argument is a logical fallacy.
Disregarding an argument because it contains a fallacy is a fallacy too.
We’ve seen this happen on Reddit and I’ve seen it happen in multiple subs. The comment might have been alarmist but given past examples it’s not unfounded.
Tu quoque is a fallacy. Pointing out fallacies isn’t, I checked.
I cant say that defederating is the right or wrong move, I’m just tired of bad faith argument. There is a balance to be stricken between regulation and libertarianism, the question to be answered is where that balance lies. Disavowing any new regulation as an inevitable descent into complete loss of freedom is ridiculous.
I don’t disagree with your stance. I just want to point out that the fallacy exists. It’s called the “Fallacy fallacy” or “Argument from fallacy”
Well shit, I stand corrected. Props to you. /gen
Not appearing on a list with a Latin name doesn’t mean something isn’t a fallacy either. They’re inventing all sorts of new and exciting ways to be wrong lately.
No need to defederate. I just went and blocked loli and related communities that popped up. I will never see them again.
So, my vote is NAY.
How exactly do I do that?
Would you say the same about a gore community?
I would block gore communities on a personal level, but there’s no need to do so on a server level unless they’re doing something worth defederating for, like any of the following:
- posting cp
- using their server to DoS/DDoS others
- dox-ing people
- allowing their users to harass others AND refusing to punish such behavior
- same as above except for ban evasion
I’d like to have a force-nsfw option for communities that don’t enforce proper usage of the NSFW tag, but for now I’d have to block them most likely.
I like watching gore.
I don’t like gore, but I miss /r/watchpeopledie. I learned a lot from that.
Personally, I’m fine with a NSFW tag, and would hope that NSFW instances respect other instances enough to properly tag stuff.
Any instance with a gore community? Nah, screw that noise. Add it to the block list.
Tbh I think an instance not enforcing tagging content as nsfw is probably very strong grounds for blocking imo
Federation is still young.
It may be easy to individually block communities now but what about in a few months/years when there are potentially 10x more communities across 10x more instances?
How intimidating would it be for a new user to have to go through 100+ communities and block them all individually instead of just blocking 5-10 instances?
Isn’t that the point of decentralization allowing users to pick and choose what they want to see? If you don’t want to see Loli all you have to do is block the server from your feed. I’m not a fan of Hentaiof any of its subs. But I digress, I’m not on your server so I guess I don’t really have a say. 😁
No the point of decentralization is not that the user has to do all the moderation work themselves.
Just block the communitys you don’t want to see.
To everyone saying just block the communities:
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I don’t want to have to block communities. In order to know I need to block a community, I have to see content which I feel is worth blocking. That’s fine for most cases but in this case that is not fine (to me personally).
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I don’t necessarily want to associate or interact with people who are fine having a server with loli as their home server. Not to be mean about it but that’s just how I feel flat out.
I think this is an instance where de-federation is the correct course of action.
I don’t want to have to block communities. In order to know I need to block a community,
so you’re puttin the onus on the admins? its the same process with different steps, just block the communities you dont want to see as they pop up. No need to search them out.
EDIT: spelling
I’m just checking out Lemmy for the first time so I’m not up to speed entirely on how everything works, but isn’t the point of the system that you chose where to create or move your account so you can choose a community that already blocks stuff? I personally chose one that had nothing blocked and was blocked by nothing to start and intend to move to somewhere else if I see the need.
Kind of. In an ideal world where all the instances have already been created so we know what communities have what content. The problem is that as more people migrate and create their own instances or communities there will inevitably be new ones that are automatically federated with shit that just goes over a line of decency. As things change over time, so will the instances and which other instances they’re federated with.
I’d like a feature for user specific defederation of communities as you’ve mentioned. Not sure it is possible though.
Sir thats the block button
Yeah, I meant entire instances.
Gotcha, I think that’s a feature request currently being worked on
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I dont think defederation is the way to go here. It could be another scenario that could be solve elegantly via a tagging system.
But I agree that stuff which is in a legal grey area or outright forbidden in many countries should not show per default on All. There already is a NSFW setting that you can activate and deactivate (this btw can solve the issue to 99% for you right now if you’re willing to pass on other NSFW content).
There could be an additional setting to see things that “might be illegal in your country of residence” or simply NSFL. If you then mark such communities appropriatly it could solve the issue for people that want a) no exposure and b) no legal risk due to being shown such communities. And I count myself among those that dont want anything to do with loli or the likes.
Users viewing illegal content is one thing but instance owners hosting it is also an issue.
I might be wrong about how content mirroring on Lemmy works but I’d imagine instance owners would clearly be liable for “publishing” any illegal content hosted on their instance.
There’s not really a way out of this using tags. And the moderation log probably needs to be purged from the actually offending content as well. And in the specific case of CP (which can include loli depending on the jurisdiction) having the content in a database might also be illegal.
So that’s a whole headache…
No content from other instances are hosted here. When you see an image from a community on another instance, what you’re seeing is an embedded image linked from the other instance.
For the sake of argument I’ll approach this from a different perspective than everyone else.
Depending on jurisdiction there might be implications in hosting an instance that is federated with instances that host loli. I’m not familiar enough with Canada’s laws and / or le Code Civil du Québec to know if it is considered CSAM, but assuming it is does federating with those communities replicate the media on this instance as well? Would this count as ‘redistributing it’?
Canada laws on CSAM are very strict. even written fictional text are considered csam by law definition. And yes, a known horror novel writer has been charged for csam production in a fiction book. he’s been acquitted tho, fortunately. But that raise an alarm that tell us that cops can arrest you for pretty much anything . If you sculpt a loli into ficello string cheese , that enter the definition of CP in Canada.
there is a part of definition saying: "and other visual representation " which is very vague and broad .
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-46/section-163.1.html
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I am biased in this situation, but I just think leaving it to the individual to block specific communities is better than blocking an entire instance for every user.
Yeah blocking a whole instance because they allow something like that is definitely way over the top of a reaction.
Another vote for blocking but not de-federating. De-federating is a nuclear option with a lot of collateral damage, and it’s pretty easy nowadays to just start screaming “pedophile” if your goal is to cause collateral damage. I’m worried that if instances start defederating in a knee-jerk reaction, it will be weaponized.
Just block it.
I too would like the ability to block at the instance level as a user. Haven’t come across loli, but @lemmynsfw.com does show up quite a bit when looking at All.
I have no problem at all with other sh.it.heads wanting to look at/interact with nsfw stuff from that instance, but I’m personally not interested. Given this, defederation seems extreme, but blocking on a community-by-community basis is time consuming and, as others have said, necessitates seeing the content to some degree (pretty sure you can choose whether stuff is blurred or not in your feed via the settings). I’d rather key ‘@lemmynsfw.com’ into a block list once, and go back to what I’m doing.
No, wrong approach because it blocks users simply interacting. What is needed is a solution for the All feed.
Perhaps I explained it poorly (or just have some fundamental misunderstanding - both are equally likely), but this is more the ability to personally block posts from all communities hosted on a given instance by defining the block at the instance level, not comments from users from instances I blocked posts on, nor posts that those users make on communities in whitelisted instances. Users should be blocked on an individual basis, for sure. If it gets to the point that too many people here have to do this for users from one specific instance, that’s when defederation should be on the table IMO.
This way, if it’s able to be done, I block @lemmynsfw.com and
-I don’t see anything from c/[any]@lemmynsfw.com.
-I do see a reply from user [x]@lemmynsfw.com on comments/posts I made in communities on other instances.
-I do see a post from user [x]@lemmynsfw.com on c/[any]@sh.itjust.worksIf this can be done, I’m perfectly happy the leave All the way it is otherwise. But there could be other ways to address this, and I’m super open to hearing better approaches.
I agree, right now Lemmy and kbin and others are still growing, so instances right now with a dozen communities may have a hundred in a few months/years and if you don’t want to see nsfw content you would potentially have to individually block hundreds of communities from @lemmtnsfw.com to keep it from your all feed.
It may be somewhat feasible now but the problem will only get worse going forward when you should be able to choose to “defederate” yourself from communities you know hold no value to you personally instead of relying on your whole instance to defederate itself from those communities when other users may not want to.
Just want to chime in here, if you don’t want to see NSFW content you can hide it on your profile. Only reason I’m pointing this out is because this particular comment seems to have the goal of hiding NSFW content from view in general. Something entirely possible in Lemmy profile settings as seen in the attached image.
What is loli?
Drawings of fictional, usually underaged, characters; typically but not always from anime/manga.
Underage anime girl
That’s not true. It’s a petite anime girl, not underage. People keep trying to conflate the two. It’s weird because even if they have big boobs and are obviously legal people still try to shove them into the title of being underage. (like the petite sensei, Uzaki, and Hestia from Is it Wrong to Pick up Girls in a Dungeon).
I mean yeah of course. That character is actually a 9000-year old vampire, not a child
/s
Oh come on, the examples I gave are one in their twenties, one in college, and one who’s a god. Their stories completely revolve around them being their ages. You are doing the exact conflating of the two I was talking about.
I agree with you technically kinda, but the average person doesn’t (and never will) see a difference and trying to explain it just makes it seem to them that you are defending it.
If a normal person sees it and says … “thats wrong” then it shouldn’t be included in a default feed.
I wasn’t even talking about whether or not it should be included in the feed. I was just saying their definition is completely wrong. Defining things improperly is the basis for spreading misinformation about something.
and I’m saying that sometimes the definition is irrelevant in the eyes of public opinion. If a character looks like a child, then that is all that matters.
that’s oppai loli
Loli is still literally in the name. Twitter freaks still try to cancel it.
Im afraid to ask, but what is loli? Definitely don’t feel like looking it up if people are that put off by it.
Child porn but with drawing
Depending where you live, it can be “still be legal” because no kid were raped, or illegal. So I am 100% sure blocking the whole instance hosting child-porn. I don’t want to get in trouble with the law for watching the front-page. More important, I don’t want hear that lemmy is used by pedophile to exchange child-porn
Hentai of underage persons. A lot of the time they’ll try to pretend it’s not by dressing it in a fantasy or scifi setting but that’s what it essentially is. I personally see it as cp
So pedo cartoons?
Absolutely block instances hosting illegal content - the way federation works means copies / caches of content can end up on this server? Or even if that’s not how lemmy does it, it risks using this server to facilitate the spread of something incredibly harmful & damaging.
As far as I’m concerned there’s no argument for allowing / normalising content produced which quite literally ruins peoples lives.
Edit: Even stuff that’s purely cartoonish in nature for me is just grim, and I don’t want to be a part of a community which supports it.
Edit2: If a server can block a specific community posting CSAM then maybe that’s a better solution than blocking the underlying infrastructure. If that’s not possible, I think defederation is the only real way to deal it, as frustrating as that would be for legitimate users.
Its literally not illegal in 90% of countrys because its just drawings. And if you don’t like it block it for yourself. This mindset leads to massive over-blocking.
In general I’d agree and say yeah, let people decide for themselves but content like this, which normalises or legitimises real world harms, shouldn’t be something easily stumbled upon.
Viewing that sort of content, or building community around its enjoyment, isn’t going to lead anywhere good.
Allowing it to show up here is net-negative.
It’s been a long time since I’ve looked, but studies suggest that porn in general doesn’t have a major effect on your behavior. It might lead to insecurity, but it doesn’t lead to action. Some people are worried about legality, most people just don’t want to see it, those are fine and dandy but anything else is just moral outrage
Actually studies around that topic show that porn (regardless of what) does decrease violent things and, most importantly, that this type of hentai we are talking about decreased actual acts of pedophilia and therfore protects real children
I don’t want to see it but if some people like it… Well rather a drawing than anything else.
I think people can have a heathy relationship with porn, and yeah there are a lot of puritanical views that sound superficially convincing, especially in direct comparison to addictive substances.
It’s hard for a lot of people to approach this subject from a place of empathy and I think shunning a group could risk the same harms as condoning the behaviour; you end up with a group that convinces itself of an internally invisible false narrative, and there’s nobody there to oppose it.
The presence of these images though indicates a group of people who think they’re is ok, who are likely accessing more extreme images, and ultimately creates a sense of normalcy around consumption. I don’t think ordinary discussion should be juxtaposed with that and it shouldn’t be freely available on a general purpose site.
That’s not how it works. Instances don’t cache images from other instances. If you hover your mouse over an image you can clearly see the site it’s hosted on is in fact not originating from the instance you’re browsing on. It works like Pleroma, Akkoma, Rebased, and other Pleroma forks.
IANAL, but I believe you can’t be held liable for hosting links to other images on a site, regardless if they’re embedded through the website’s UI. They’re not stored there, afterall. The client is rendering them.
All that gets cached, I believe, is the text and users from remote instances. And by cached, I mean stored in the postgres DB.
