With Ukraine’s military badly outnumbered by the invading Russians and desperately in need of more soldiers, villages like Makiv are being emptied of their fighting-age men.
The fascist regime that the west installed in Ukraine in a violent coup that overthrew the democratically elected government is sacrificing the people of Ukraine in a proxy war between NATO and Russia.
Riiight. The evil dogs must be taken down, so Russia literally had no choice but to invade. NATO literally forced them!
Meanwhile, most Ukrainians aren’t even in Ukraine anymore
I wanted to see the source you are using to know who they considered refugees and what areas are counted for Ukraine’s population. And especially what source/numbers you are using for Ukraine’s current total population because the total from your link or the estimates I’ve found are nowhere near any of the even lower end estimates I’ve seen.
You seem to be somehow upset over me asking for your sources. I’m not sure why that is, making a claim and someone asking for a source is fairly normal internet discussion stuff. Nothing to be upset over.
“NATO didn’t sign our treaty so we just had to attack” is not a very convincing justification for a damn invasion at all. Russia chose to attack instead of dealing with an unfriendly government. Which is fucked up.
I wonder if people who think NATO expansion was a fine justification would be fine with the US invading countries to prevent them from joining military alliances they oppose. I know I wouldn’t be.
Moving them goalposts when faced with the facts eh.
You literally wrote this: “Meanwhile, most Ukrainians aren’t even in Ukraine anymore”. And I asked source for your claims.
I just want to see your source for this claim. I’m happy with the source for the other claim.
Weird way to say NATO has been expanding towards Russia since the 90s.
Governments aligning themselves differently to how you’d like is no justification for invading them and killing their people.
Would you be fine with the reverse, USA or Germany or someone invading if those countries had been joining CSTO for example? Would a military alliance aligned away from those countries be a justification enough for attacking them and killing their people? I wouldn’t think so.
If you think US would be fine with countries that border it joining an alliance with Russia you’re even more ignorant than I thought. Go read up on the Cuban missile crisis.
And tell me, are you fine with the US behaviour there? And I didn’t say they’d be fine with it, I said I wouldn’t be fine with them doing it.
I literally provided you with a source. Maybe work on that reading comprehension of yours?
Your source doesn’t prove that “most Ukrainians aren’t even in Ukraine anymore”. If anything, based on all estimates of current Ukrainian population I could find compared to the refugee numbers you provided, it argues against that point.
What number are you using for Ukraine’s current total population?
This isn’t a hypothetical, we already know what the west does.
And how do you feel about that, do you think it is proper justification?
Not being an utter imbecile, I understand that this would be the only possible outcome. Provoking such an outcome is either idiotic or intentionally malicious.
Can you elaborate on what you mean by this?
Go look up the population of Ukraine before and after the war. If you really can’t figure out how google works then come back and I’ll help you.
You provided the figures for how many refugees there are and have claimed that proves that “most Ukrainians aren’t even in Ukraine anymore”. But the total refugees from that source are nowhere near the estimates for current Ukrainian population, even on low end. So I’m not sure how that proves your point. Maybe you’ve misunderstood something but I have been googling this and the numbers I’ve found go against what you are saying.
So yes, please help me. It’s kinda what I’ve been asking since the start but you’ve been pretty standoffish about it.
You’re arguing with a person driven by anti-Western/NATO viewpoints; you’ll never get a fair response. Even if they find something to back up their claims, it’ll be a biased source. Expect sputnik news or some other direct Russian propaganda source. Just gotta get used to that on Lemmy.
Edit: Removed the “t” word as apparently that’s a slur now.
Sometimes I’m just curious where people got their numbers from. This time both for because the first argument seems unlikely and second I wanted to know if they count the occupied areas and those forcibly moved for example.
I completely understand, but remember that for some people this is just a matter of ideology. Any response will be filled with so many bullshit claims that you’ll have to spend an hour digging through random articles, YouTube videos, and googling drive-by statements in order to refute them.
They argue by shooting dozens of points at you hoping that you’ll just say “ah shit, this person is quoting X, Y, and Z so they must be correct”, knowing that no reasonable person would spend the time required to refute each and every BS statement they’ve made. (gish galloping, for the uninitiated)
I did this once before, and it took much longer than expected to refute each bullshit source. When dealing with these people you either don’t engage, or enjoy them feasting on your free time.
Lol, the Russian total includes people who were already in Russia before they invaded, but no other country does. Might be skewing the number there, a bit.
The most pro-Russian, pragmatic, and morally flexible Ukrainians would be the ones to be living in Russia even post-2014 invasion. I think most of the ordinary people were somewhat neutral before the invasions. Plus, you know, a population always contains a spectrum of opinions. The Eastern part of Ukraine was known to have a reasonable amount of pro-Russian people in it before 2014, that’s part of how Putin justified invading.
I’m sure even now most Ukrainians aren’t exactly anti-Russia anymore than Americans were anti-Afghanistan when we (needlessly) invaded to go after the Taliban. A vocal minority were rabid about killing them all, while most people were only interested in killing the actual terrorists, if they were in support of the invasion at all. Likewise, I’m sure most Ukrainians don’t find Russia to be evil in general, only the people in power responsible for the invasions.
Finally, I must point out that while Russia is merely at the top of the list with muddy population numbers, not-Russia absolutely curb stomps yes-Russia.
The vast majority of people, when faced with an invasion, run away from the invaders, not towards them.
Good data, I wasn’t gonna bother digging it up, but I’m glad you did. I think it’s important to remember that all realities are more mixed than we like to infer from plots and our preferred view. That is, while the geographic opinions are strong, neither the East nor the West of Ukraine are a monolith in their opinions.
I think you’re being a bit generous with the claim that central Ukrainians would have favored Russia as a destination, especially considering the data you brought. I also think you’re being generous with just how pro-Russia the East actually is, again considering the data you presented. I would also like to point out that the current front lines overlapping with public opinion tendencies is mostly a coincidence. Russia was intending to fully conquer Ukraine and failed. The current front line is only minimally influenced by the loyalty majority of the locals.
Still, I want to thank you for bringing the data. Good numbers are always better than no numbers.
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Riiight. The evil dogs must be taken down, so Russia literally had no choice but to invade. NATO literally forced them!
I wanted to see the source you are using to know who they considered refugees and what areas are counted for Ukraine’s population. And especially what source/numbers you are using for Ukraine’s current total population because the total from your link or the estimates I’ve found are nowhere near any of the even lower end estimates I’ve seen.
You seem to be somehow upset over me asking for your sources. I’m not sure why that is, making a claim and someone asking for a source is fairly normal internet discussion stuff. Nothing to be upset over.
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“NATO didn’t sign our treaty so we just had to attack” is not a very convincing justification for a damn invasion at all. Russia chose to attack instead of dealing with an unfriendly government. Which is fucked up.
I wonder if people who think NATO expansion was a fine justification would be fine with the US invading countries to prevent them from joining military alliances they oppose. I know I wouldn’t be.
You literally wrote this: “Meanwhile, most Ukrainians aren’t even in Ukraine anymore”. And I asked source for your claims.
I just want to see your source for this claim. I’m happy with the source for the other claim.
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Governments aligning themselves differently to how you’d like is no justification for invading them and killing their people.
Would you be fine with the reverse, USA or Germany or someone invading if those countries had been joining CSTO for example? Would a military alliance aligned away from those countries be a justification enough for attacking them and killing their people? I wouldn’t think so.
And tell me, are you fine with the US behaviour there? And I didn’t say they’d be fine with it, I said I wouldn’t be fine with them doing it.
Your source doesn’t prove that “most Ukrainians aren’t even in Ukraine anymore”. If anything, based on all estimates of current Ukrainian population I could find compared to the refugee numbers you provided, it argues against that point.
What number are you using for Ukraine’s current total population?
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And how do you feel about that, do you think it is proper justification?
Can you elaborate on what you mean by this?
You provided the figures for how many refugees there are and have claimed that proves that “most Ukrainians aren’t even in Ukraine anymore”. But the total refugees from that source are nowhere near the estimates for current Ukrainian population, even on low end. So I’m not sure how that proves your point. Maybe you’ve misunderstood something but I have been googling this and the numbers I’ve found go against what you are saying.
So yes, please help me. It’s kinda what I’ve been asking since the start but you’ve been pretty standoffish about it.
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You’re arguing with a person driven by anti-Western/NATO viewpoints; you’ll never get a fair response. Even if they find something to back up their claims, it’ll be a biased source. Expect sputnik news or some other direct Russian propaganda source. Just gotta get used to that on Lemmy.
Edit: Removed the “t” word as apparently that’s a slur now.
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Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Noam Chomsky - The 5 Filters of the Mass Media Machine
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
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Sometimes I’m just curious where people got their numbers from. This time both for because the first argument seems unlikely and second I wanted to know if they count the occupied areas and those forcibly moved for example.
I completely understand, but remember that for some people this is just a matter of ideology. Any response will be filled with so many bullshit claims that you’ll have to spend an hour digging through random articles, YouTube videos, and googling drive-by statements in order to refute them.
They argue by shooting dozens of points at you hoping that you’ll just say “ah shit, this person is quoting X, Y, and Z so they must be correct”, knowing that no reasonable person would spend the time required to refute each and every BS statement they’ve made. (gish galloping, for the uninitiated)
I did this once before, and it took much longer than expected to refute each bullshit source. When dealing with these people you either don’t engage, or enjoy them feasting on your free time.
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You’re responding to the wrong person, chief.
Damn, sorry. Don’t know how I managed that.
No worries.
Lol, the Russian total includes people who were already in Russia before they invaded, but no other country does. Might be skewing the number there, a bit.
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The most pro-Russian, pragmatic, and morally flexible Ukrainians would be the ones to be living in Russia even post-2014 invasion. I think most of the ordinary people were somewhat neutral before the invasions. Plus, you know, a population always contains a spectrum of opinions. The Eastern part of Ukraine was known to have a reasonable amount of pro-Russian people in it before 2014, that’s part of how Putin justified invading.
I’m sure even now most Ukrainians aren’t exactly anti-Russia anymore than Americans were anti-Afghanistan when we (needlessly) invaded to go after the Taliban. A vocal minority were rabid about killing them all, while most people were only interested in killing the actual terrorists, if they were in support of the invasion at all. Likewise, I’m sure most Ukrainians don’t find Russia to be evil in general, only the people in power responsible for the invasions.
Finally, I must point out that while Russia is merely at the top of the list with muddy population numbers, not-Russia absolutely curb stomps yes-Russia.
The vast majority of people, when faced with an invasion, run away from the invaders, not towards them.
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Good data, I wasn’t gonna bother digging it up, but I’m glad you did. I think it’s important to remember that all realities are more mixed than we like to infer from plots and our preferred view. That is, while the geographic opinions are strong, neither the East nor the West of Ukraine are a monolith in their opinions.
I think you’re being a bit generous with the claim that central Ukrainians would have favored Russia as a destination, especially considering the data you brought. I also think you’re being generous with just how pro-Russia the East actually is, again considering the data you presented. I would also like to point out that the current front lines overlapping with public opinion tendencies is mostly a coincidence. Russia was intending to fully conquer Ukraine and failed. The current front line is only minimally influenced by the loyalty majority of the locals.
Still, I want to thank you for bringing the data. Good numbers are always better than no numbers.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
this lecture
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
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