“So then it’s onboarding people, teaching them how to play D&D, which is really complex”
As a person w/ out d&d experience, who was broadly aware of the game (ie. know classes but not the difference between actions & bonus actions), I didn’t have a terrible time onboarding. I started as a paladin and found that most of what I could do was pretty apparent and my friends who probably knew less than me seemed to catch on just as fast.
Some things like throwing potions wasn’t as obvious but I could see some choice paralysis from being a spellcaster.
For me, all my trouble comes from my party members. I understand my character and his limitations, but managing classes that I don’t fully understand has led to me greying out spells due to armor restrictions or causing my party to accidentally split because the wizard, weighed down by cloth, a book, and a cane, can’t jump as high as my fully-kitted out fighter with ringmail and a greatsword and now is alone in combat against some CR3 monster.
Just in case you don’t know, jump distance is determined entirely by the strength stat
You played one of the simpler classes to be fair, paladins just hit things and hit things harder with smite.
High level wizards are when it can complicated, or you can forego all the complication and just spam fireball as the hammer to every nail
Tbf paladin does still have a number of spell that I’ve used like compel duel, command and the healing spells. Plus I ended up taking 2 lvls in druid to get more spells and slots. Thorn whip is pretty good on a paladin.
I learned to play D&D Advanced Ed, TMNT the rpg, Shadowrun 1st edition, GURPS, and others, when I was 10-11 years old.
It’s not particularly complex, you just have to be interested enough to read and take the time to learn the ruleset.
I’ve been thinking about this a lot because I have two weekly games, and both have at least one player who just doesn’t really master the rules.
They’re not stupid people. But they don’t pick up the rules. Ten weeks in and I’m still reminding them about opportunity attacks. One group isn’t playing DND and one player has similar problems.
I don’t know what to do.
Some people are just never going to learn them.
What other game is the second group playing?
I found that the idea of “D&D” doesn’t match with the reality of D&D® (or adjacent like Pathfinder and Shadow of the Demon Lord). Like most people think of grand stories with climactic moments and character growth and the modern D&D offers more of a “square - counting, binary pass/fail roll slog, abstract resource management with little character choice after 3rd level, and almost zero risk” experience. Which is great in a video game, but boring at the table.
I’ve ran D&D® (or adjacent) for numerous groups for over 30 years now across multiple editions and the most success in the D&D® framework I had was B/X, but I think the game that comes closest to realizing “D&D” as a concept is Dungeon World. No overwhelming player facing textbooks, and it constantly pushes the narrative forward no matter what the outcome of a roll is. It’s also free.
There’s thousands of different games out there from more complex than D&D to single word RPGs. Find the right one for you and your group 😄
The other game is Mage: The Awakening (2e). It’s very, very, different than D&D. It’s one of my big game crushes that I’ve rarely been able to play.
But the player decision space is pretty huge, and the players have a lot of tools at hand. I don’t really want to remind them every time like “You can use Web Weaver to make the connection easier to work with” or “You can ritually cast instead of instant cast to get more dice and reaches”
Different values. That’s normal. Some people game to win, some people game to explore, some people play to socialice and some people play to unwind. Ask them what is the most important thing about playing for them.
It’s perfectly fine to not be a stickler about rules, the real trick is finding a DM who is cool as shit and not all caught up with their own self importance as the controlling power of the game. Play to have fun and roll with it. As long as the group as a whole and the one player is still having fun, that’s all that matters.
“Camaraderie, adventure, and steel on steel. The stuff of legend! Right, Boo?” - Minsc the Great, uh, Philosopher Barbarian Ranger
Honestly after a while I stopped caring and just enjoyed that I could do three actions per round as a Monk. Does it matter that Gale can’t throw this grenade? Nope. Can he take this healing pot? He sure can! I don’t care for minmaxing and optimising my playstyle, I prefer to wing it and see how it goes. If an NPC dies in the process, RNGesus has spoken.
I have a friend absolutely murder hoboing his way through this game and even his pure blood and chaos playthrough is a blast. I love this game.
I know this will be a very controversial comment, but I actually can’t stand the combat (extremely unfamiliar with the genre as a whole, and I’ve also never been a fan of turn-based systems), but love the game to death. As a result, I’m using a trainer to essentially trivialize combat encounters, because my BG3 addiction stems from the characters, their stories, the incredible world and the exploration it offers, the side quests, the lore, the insane detail in every corner of the map. I also work 80 hour weeks and want to spend the little time I get with the game doing what I love most, which is exploration and delving into my characters’ stories.
I’ve just gotten through Moonrise Towers (and have done all I can find to do in each area so far, although I already know I’ll be doing multiple playthroughs), and it’s one of the most immersive and enjoyable gaming experiences I’ve ever had, despite the fact I’m quite literally cheating my way through combat encounters. I’m basically playing it as a very interactive ‘choose your own adventure’ novel, with weapon and armor pickups being cosmetic-only in nature, and the focus of my playthrough being on exploring the world and delving into its inhabitants’ backstories and the mysteries they hold.
Playing a game differently to make sure you’re having fun is fine to me (presuming you’re not messing up other people’s multiplayer experiences or something, which isn’t the case here).
Don’t see why this would need to be controversial.
I guess I’m still expecting the reddit response to this kind of thing. I got torn to shreds over there for saying this, despite it being a game I’m playing solo.
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What’s a “trainer” ?
a separate program that allows one to “cheat” (not a bad thing, as long as it’s not done in multiplayer) by scanning and modifying the game’s memory.
for example, it could figure out where your hitpoints are stored and constantly overwrite that value with your full hit points
I see, very nice, I guess it’s called a trainer as it’s main use is to help train on a game without constantly reloading. Have fun then :-)
We are also at the tower, this game is great indeed.
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My dude, stop complaining about how other people have fun. They’re hurting literally no one
I don’t disagree with your stance, but I am curious why you decided on a trainer instead of picking the easier difficulty. Did you try it and still find it too much? I have read about the differences between modes but haven’t actually tried anything other than normal, and even though I’m extremely familiar with PF 1e and D&D 5e I’ve struggled with lots of encounters.
I initially started on easy, but just found it far too complex of a system to get my head around, and when my work hours can see me going days between play sessions, any knowledge I do pick up often isn’t retained. I also just don’t enjoy turn based combat at all, so when I enter combat, I just throw on god mode and infinite turns to get it over and return to the story or quest more quickly (I’ll often alter things depending on what’s happening in the game at the time though. For example, I did the Gauntlet of Shar with Shadowheart on her own, as it felt like something she needed to tackle solo, even if I wasn’t in any genuine danger.)
I guess tl;dr - even easy was a bit too much for me to take in given my work schedule, as well as the combat taking a lot of time away from the aspects of the game I love, namely exploration and stories.
Not the one you’re asking but I feel the same as them.
I am playing on the easiest setting with no mods because it’s my first playthrough, I can finish the combat sessions without struggling but I don’t like the combat mechanics at all, this system is just not for me.
Next playthrough I’ll use mods and if there’s something that can make combat finish as fast as possible so I don’t have to deal with it too much, I’ll definitely use it.
You’re not alone, I can’t stand the combat either, not a fan of turn-based combat in RPGs and DnD rules seem needlessly complicated for a videogame, but I absolutely love everything else about BG3, there are so many possibilities I want to explore.
I’m doing my first playthrough on the easiest setting without mods but from the next I’ll use mods and if there’s something that can reduce combat to a minimum I’ll definitely use it. What trainer are you using?
I’m using WeMod, personally.
Thanks!
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Thank you :)
The story is fantastic so far, and I haven’t enjoyed a game this much since Bloodborne.
What about the combat is so unbearable for you? Is it too complex or too long per encounter? I’ve played a lot of CRPGs so to me the combat is very intuitive and one of my favorite parts of the game.
I think it mainly comes down to the length per encounter, on top of the turn based system and mechanics I’m very unfamiliar with. I have pretty severe ADHD too, so it’s kinda a perfect storm of combat mechanics I’ve never been a fan of. I prefer real time, “learn the patterns” style combat ala Dark Souls or Sekiro. If I was younger and had more time to play, I’d likely have pushed through and learned the way BG3 plays on a fundamental level, but the reality is, I have 3-5 hours to play once or twice a week, and I just don’t want to sacrifice time in a combat system I don’t find enjoyable when I could be out adventuring and meeting new characters.
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Brains are weird things yo. I’d go as far as to say that Soulsbornekiro Ring combat is my absolute favorite kind of gameplay out there. I also love Kaizo Mario ROMhacks. Something about difficult, but faster-paced action games just do it for me. It’s the ‘waiting my turn and strategizing for when I get to go again’ part that my ADHD isn’t a fan of - too much waiting and watching, not enough stimulation.
I was a real little shit during grade school lmao
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Good stories do it for me as well. BG3 isn’t my usual kind of game, but it’s got me hooked. I learned long ago not to try and make sense of my ADHD - if I like something, I just go with it, even if that thing happens to be some weird outlier.
I’m a different commentor but wanted to reply with my biggest complaint about the combat is that I can’t skip the enemy turns and fast forward through them. It gets real tedious when you get into the encounters with like 20+ enemies. Otherwise I enjoy the combat. Do wish opportunity strikes against me would trigger a warning and ability to cancel my movement though since I often miss the red arrow or I misclick 1mm too far.
I fricking haaaaaaate when you’re fighting what feels like twenty-eleven enemies with more spawning in, and you just have to sit there and wait while the AI slowly decides what to do for each and every one of them.
I personally love the big encounters with 20+ enemies but I do agree that it can really drag out combat and be unfun just waiting 10 minutes to do something again. I would love to see an option, similar to that in civ 6, where you can skip movement and attack animations to really speed up combat.
Huh I expected such thing will be handled with group initiative already at beta stage. Owlcat ran into the same problem with Rogue Trader and after feedback from alpha that large groups of goons resolve turns way too slow bundled them in the initiative track. It’s a very common tabletop rpg solution to the issue and I’m surprised Larian didn’t implement it.
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“You’re having fun wrong”
Then fucking comment somewhere else. This thread is for discussing combat difficulty, not raging at other people’s opinions you stupid small dicked cunt.
Take about 20% off there, bud.
Yeah, turn it down a notch, dude.
lol seethe
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40 hours later of couch co-op with my inexperienced partner who chose Wizard for some reason, and their character is finally useful in battle near the end of act 2.
I try not to control them, I just say what I’m doing and planning so they don’t launch my team off a cliff. Occasionally I’ll say “Yes, counterspell cloudkill please.” but I’m mostly hands off. When asked for advice I give it, I’m not a monster, I just think if we’re playing together we should both get to play.
I haven’t played any DnD since 3rd, and my partner loves these role playing shows like Critical Role or whatever. My biggest takeaway I’ve had from our sessions is that those shows most not have any mechanics whatsoever.
Those shows have people that play the game a lot (critical role played for years before going live), they don’t teach mechanics to their viewers.
The shows follow the rules and utilize all mechanics, but you need the context. As someone familiar with 3.5, Critical Role got me 95% to playing the 5th edition without touching the books.
Can’t say the same would apply to someone new to pen-and-paper RPGs.
DnD is stupidly complicated and hopefully this is a call out to WotC to realise that their system isn’t the gold standard because of its rules, but moreso out of happenstance.
It’s funny you say this when 5E is considered the “simplified” version, and 6E (One DnD) is suspected to be more complex. Pathfinder 1e(basically dnd 3.5E) is way, way more complex and even pathfinder 2e, which is much more simpler than 1e, is more complex than 5e.
In any case, as TTRPGs go, current DND is quite simple. However, it seems that some people who enjoy RPGs just want a simpler experience I guess.
Yeah it’s insane to me seeing this take around with this release. There are definitely intentionally rules light, heavy narrative systems that are less crunchy but DnD is not really very complicated.
Eh, there are different kinds of simplicity. My big problem with 5E is that it puts so much at GM discretion without any strong guidance than it feels like a completely different system between one GM and the next. This does in fact make character creation (and to a lesser extent gameplay) needlessly complicated because what constitutes an optimal (or even reasonable) character depends heavily on which rules the GM is going to choose to use.
Stealth is a great example. If you compare the rules involving stealth in Pathfinder 2e and D&D 5e, on the surface, it looks like 5e stealth is simpler to handle. PF2e has a chapter on it, 5e just tells you to roll stealth against passive perception. But the problem is that’s not a complete ruleset, so the DM needs to fill in the gaps, and every DM is going to have their own version of the stealth rules cobbled together from dozens of ad hoc rulings which ultimately ends up being more complicated than if the rulebook just laid it all out to begin with.
And it’s no surprise the stealth classes in BG3 end up outshining all others in damage potential.
Uuuhhhh… Nah. Multiclass monsters and bug abusers are the top dps. Usually some fighter thief ranger or Taberna brawler barb+ fighter thief or monk fighter thief… You see a pattern here? The more attacks you can do (action surge + extra bonus action) the better.
Dnd 5e has many legacy concepts that exist the way they do just because thats how older versions worked.
The system I basically started TTRPGs with was Pathfinder. It’s rediculously more complex, but it’s complex for a reason. The rules are created I’m a way that there are almost no limits to what actions you can take that are covered. D&D has a lot of options, but some of it just has to be left the the DM.
Then we have BG3, which removed even more options, though for good reason. Creating a video game that can account for anything the player can do is hard, though some things are just missing and I’m not sure why. For example, no grappling (by the player). My guess would be that may be for animation reason (having to account for non-humanoid grappling) but I feel like they could have done something to make it work.
I quite honestly don’t understand the opinion of DnD being complicated at least from what I’ve played everything runs smooth. It being inside of a video game makes things even clearer with UI.
When you’re playing with paper and dice, things go off the rails real quick. The players can pretty well do whatever they get into their heads to do. One party that I remember decided to start digging a tunnel in the middle of a dungeon. I still don’t really know where that idea came from.
I don’t disagrer, but UI in BG3 is way overdone relative to the system’s complexity. Solasta did it better.
BG3’s 5e DnD is very simple compared to Pathfinder. I finished both of the Pathfinder CRPGs before playing BG3 and was shocked at how easy it is to make a good build compared to the Pathfinder games. Throw in [BG3 Spoilers] >!an angry ex god helping you!< you’ll have a lot of room to experiment with your builds.
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I think the game does an amazing job streamlining the dnd rules and making them easier to understand
I only ever found the magic classes complicated when I was new. The limited spells per day and number of cast rules, what you had access to as what, memorizing, etc… All a lot of work compared to other games I was used to just having a mana pool.
Yeah. It’s a holdover that doesn’t work great. Vancian casting is pretty weird. It’s impressive how easy bg3 makes learning the casting.
The fact that they let prepared casters change prepared spells without a long rest is a HUGE buff. As written you pick your spells when you long rest, and if it turns out you needed something you didn’t prepare you’d be out of luck
You can long rest pretty much anywhere out of combat so does it make any difference when you can prepare?
The fact that you can long rest basically whenever is a huge break from D&D’s expectations. Namely, the adventuring day. Granted, D&D’s adventuring day is hot garbage so I see why they didn’t stick to it.
But you’re right it doesn’t make a huge difference in BG3, outside of the few timed events, but it is a buff.
There are certain timed events where a long rest can change the outcome, so in those cases it’s very helpful to be able to prepare if you encounter a situation that you’re not ready for.
5e isn’t Vancian casting though.
Vancian casting is so much worse.
5e (and BG3 in turn) even simplified Vancian casting compared to previous versions. Used to be that you had slots that you prepared a specific spell for. If you had four slots and needed to cast Magic Missile three times, but you used two of those slots to prepare Grease and Fog Cloud, you were out of luck.
It’s a holdover that doesn’t work great.
It… Does. I enjoy having spell levels and slots way more than something like mana. In any system with mana I almost always use either the most dmg/mana efficient spell or the big one, etc. Having spells be divided in levels and action/bonus action makes for a much more interesting combat.
For example, I much preferred the way DS1&2 does spellcasting compared to DS3 and elden ring. You have a limited amount of casts and the system forces you to either have a varied spellcasting repertoire or to find your way to get several of the same spell to ge more uses. Mana is… mana. Boring.
Tangent to that is ability cool downs like Divinity original sin 2. It’s the same as you said with mana, if you have to wait certain amount of turns to reuse your abilities combat revolves around min maxing your ability cool downs. Using long cool downs first in order to be able to use them again on the same fight. Buffs need to be recast every fight instead of after a long rest. Combat ends up being the same for every fight since you’re using the same abilities in the same order to maximize the cool downs
I just turned it down to the lowest difficulty setting until I learned how the system works. By level 7 I’m holding my own in balanced setting and enjoying the hell out of this game. It’s all I play now lol
Coming from Pathfinder, I find 5e really simple and scoffed at the title but if you’ve never played before it’s a great point
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I would assume that it helps casual players by removing confusing options ans reducing choice paralysis. There’s already a lot to choose and think about with one class - multi classing makes it even more complex and scary.
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That’s fair, but I think they refer to the more casual people who want to play a game without having to think so much, and that was a step in that direction. Obviously, it does not fit into your needs.
I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a mod that allows multiclassing even in Explorer.
Especially since you can bump up the difficulty just for your level up and then drop it back down once you’ve got your level in the other class.
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i have (basically) no dnd and i didn’t find the experience very overwhelming. respeccing was a very important mechanic for me as i got to rebuild the character once i understood the class/game better. that being said, i wish the tool tips were a little more fleshed out: spell x has a chance of doing y but never tells me what y even does (or if it does, then they didn’t make it idiot proof)
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I broke my own haste concentration at least twice a play session and I’ve been DMing 5e for 6 years at this point. Would have saved me a few wipes on tactician
You have to concentrate on haste now? Back in 3.0-3.5 you cast it and it just worked. Still didn’t allow you to cast two spells, so it seemed pretty useless to most of my characters. Throw it on the dual-vorpal-katana-wielding fighter, and watch her just abuse TF out of Great Cleave.
Yep, most buffs require concentration now. There are a couple exceptions but they’re mostly the weaker buffs like longstrider. In tabletop 5e haste also doesn’t let you cast two spells, , it’s either an extra dash, disengage, hide, or a single weapon attack (no multiattack). Much much stronger in BG3.
If you’re on keyboard (I’m sure controller has it but idk the button) the T key will let you hover over keywords to get more information. Ie, if a spell says it paralyzed the enemy, hitting T will let you mouse over “paralyzed” and read how it prevents the enemies from acting, and makes all melee attacks against them crits.
Add to this: the combat log (bottom right) will tell you the result of every die roll, which removes the mystery of why I KEEP MISSING ALL THE TIME.
I have no DnD experience, but I do have DOS2 experience, so as long as I manage to make things go “bang” and send someone flying out of a window, it is fine by me. Said so, after +100h in, I already know how most of the stuff works, even if I don’t really try to use it. After all, there’s nothing that can’t be solved by using three Call Lightning spells of my Storm Sorcerer on the same turn.
But yeah, for someone who doesn’t understand shit but also tries to understand it, it must be overwhelming.
I have no D&D experience but I have played many MMO and fantasy games before so don’t find it too daunting. Takes a little while to learn what each spells capabilities are and even long to learn it’s synergies with other spells and abilities but eventually it comes along.
Planning on starting a second playthrough now that I know a bit more about the abilities and can build them more appropriately the second time around.
I tried warlock, gave up twice on level 3, decided to play barbarian instead and banish all wizardry except for the cleric to keep it simple. I’m in act 1 and have no idea how far this will work, but so far I’m having fun and the game offers plenty of options to break its ai. Like my party running around an enemy army stuck in turn based time to set up the perfect ambush.
Do I need to kill Gale to get rid of him once he is in my camp, or can I kick him out? He started getting whiney about his condition and I kept him only because the game insisted he’d be useful.
Thankfully he only eats three items, so beyond that you can pretty much ignore him. Don’t worry about the items he eats just save a couple of items that you would otherwise sell until he eats his third. You’ll get much better items later on in the game without issue.
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You don’t really lower a target’s AC, it usually stays constant. The AC is just the number you have to roll against to hit.
Ie, you roll a 10 on a d20. You have a bonus of +8 to hit. That means you’ll hit the enemy as long as it’s AC is 18 or lower.
Saving throws are the reverse. The enemy who’s getting targeted by a spell gets to roll and add their save bonus to try and beat your spell DC, which is usually somewhere from 15-20 ish.
You don’t really need to know the maths going on, it’s all represented by the % chance that pops up when you go to target something. If a hit says 95% chance, that means you’ll hit as long as you don’t roll a 1 on a d20.
As for Karlach’s AC, that’s just a barbarian thing. Barbarians are usually unarmored, but they get to add their Con stat to their AC as well as their Dex. They have a lot more HP to make up for getting hit more often, and they resist all physical damage while raging so they’re still quite tanky despite having a lower AC.
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No problem, feel free to ask if there’s anything else that isn’t clear, it’s a complex game
I played DnD a bit before, but it has been years. I remember the basic premise of stuff, but absolutely forgot all the little details of things. With that in mind, it really just feels like any other big RPG with classes and skill trees. It feels much less complicated than just about any primarily strategy game (especially things like 4x games), despite definitely fitting into the strategy category. It feels like every system that could be complex and daunting has enough information given and a very intuitive UI that makes it easy to navigate and figure things out on your own.
I have 0 dnd experience outside of AD&D decades ago, and this game isn’t very complex at all. Combat definitely isn’t. Strategic, yes, but not complex or overwhelming.
I don’t understand how someone can be overwhelmed by the combat of this game. You can move, and you can do a thing, and some people get a once-per-turn extra thing. It’s every strategy RPG game ever.
I think it’s varied based on classes. A Barbarian or a Rouge play very straightforward - hit things, then hit them again.
For classes like wizards, you suddenly have a ton of options in your disposal, and they all use the same resource (spell slots)
I think it’s easier when you have a lot of abilities that simply go into a cooldown (usually Short or Long cooldowns). That means using one doesn’t come at the expense of the other abilities that you have.
That directly leads to the D: OS system where stacking tons of abilities is the optimal play pattern, which I’m not a huge fan of. Like, if you have a character without Teleport on that game, you’re flat out playing wrong
There’s always a trade-off. I like that DnD is more flexible than when I last played, for wizards/clerics, but trying to solve these game design problems basically always adds complexity.
I agree. I was mostly trying to point out that playing mages is somewhat more complex than playing fighting classes that mostly just… fight.
There’s a fair bit of onboarding and constant learning if people are coming into D&D or similar games. I felt the same with pathfinder trying to understand spell metamagic (caster levels, DCs etc)
That’s odd because I’ve always struggled to grasp the entire rules of D&D in a whole for playing any sessions. But BG3 has managed to present all these elements in such an intuitive way I now feel like I finally have a great grasp of all the rules. I’ve even found I have to start playing on tactician difficulty and whilst dressing my party in funny outfits and ignoring armour buffs, or I’m starting to find the combat too easy once you start to get creative.
Good. That’ll help weed out the filthy casuals.
