Interesting bit of news for the threadiverse. All three of these are fairly large lemmy instances
Some of yāall getting angry need to look at yourself in the mirror. The whole point of federation was to allow communities to do things like this if they want.
A lot of new people are going to see this mudslinging and rightfully turn around. Nobody is coming to Lemmy to see drama between instances.
I thought the whole point of federation was that everything from every federated instance was connected and I only need one account to see every part of it. The fact that federation has been the only discussion since the blackout is not good for the alternatives to reddit. My whole life is tech and if itās this distracting to me I canāt imagine any remotely average user being interested. The fact that this was the perfect time to be part of an alternative but the whole experience has mostly just proven reddits āgive it a weekā response true.
I thought the whole point of federation was that everything from every federated instance was connected and I only need one account to see every part of it.
That was never going to happen, not even in the best possible case.
Far left and far right are always going to split off. Do you want to be having discussions about race with neo nazis? I donāt. Let them go to their own dark corner of the internet.
I thought the whole point of federation was that everything from every federated instance was connected and I only need one account to see every part of it.
No. If an instance hosts toxic communities then your instance can choose to defederate from it. You donāt have to wait for the centralized authority to ban them. Itās about being able to choose your admins and form a web of āgoodā communities.
kbin is only live a month or soā¦ of course there will be problems and missing moderation tools - it wont be much better for lemmy.
There is no perfect time - some people will stay some will go back to reddit witout any change. thats a user thing not the fault of beehaw or the federation of servers.
I do think itās fair to criticize the decision to try to be one of the largest instances while only having four moderators. They should have accepted a place as a midsize instance with midsize communities in order to maintain their moderation goals. Or they could have worked to get more moderators. Blaming the defederated instances and mod tools seem disingenuous at best. That said mod tools undoubtedly need improvement.
To be fair, they said the reason they were defederating from those two instances in particular is because most of their moderation involved people from them. They didnāt expand beehaw beyond what they could handle, the rest of lemmy expanded beyond what they could handle. If this really is just a temporary measure, which is also what they said, then I think itās pretty reasonable.
Thatās because they defederated from the two largest competing instances. Iām talking about the communities users not the instances. The issue is that beehaw has the largest and therefore defacto default communities. The timing is bad and will likely affect wider adoption. The biggest problem is that it is entirely foreseeable and solved by either accepting a smaller community (closing signups) or improving moderation capabilities (getting more moderators or investing in an alternative moderation system) before it meant splitting the threadiverse in half.
Iām not denying that it sucks, but if youād told anybody this was going to happen a month ago theyād have just laughed at you. Of course they were unprepared. Everbody has more than they can deal with. Adding more mods isnāt as simple as picking some names out of a hat, and this isnāt a thing anyone was preparing for. There currently are no alternative moderation systems, everything is too new and until recently was all way to small for that to be important, and they just have more work then they can deal with trying to suddenly moderate all of the threadiverse.
This was a bad option that sucked, but every option was a bad option that sucked. Iām more concerned with how they deal with things as they normalize over the coming weeks and months than I am with how theyāre trying to put out the fires in the short term.
But they chose a nonstandard moderation strategy that limited their ability to scale moderation with users. The default system is that communities are moderated independently of admins (not saying admins donāt form communities or that thereās no overlap between admins and mods) whereas on beehaw only the admins can create communities and therefore are the primary moderators.
Now Iām not saying that thereās anything inherently wrong with the system theyāve chosen but the fact that it is nonstandard and in fact built into the core precept of beehaw means that this was easily foreseen.
Easily forseen if you knew that lemmy was suddenly going to have a hundred times as many users in the space of a couple weeks. That was the thing no one was prepared for though.
A couple of weeks is more than enough time to realize where things were headed and act. lemmy.ml managed to do it.
The admins have always been clear that theyāre not trying to replace Reddit, and Iām quite sure they were not trying to be one of the largest instances.
If they werenāt trying to get large then how did that happen? Based on admin comments, beehaw was one of the more active instances when the first wave of migration happened; and a decent amount of the pre-first wave posts about lemmy I saw on Reddit were about how Beehaw was a good instance to join as it was defederated from lemmygrad.
Iām not saying this has anything to do with replacing reddit but it is bad for the larger threadiverse community. Notably there were several other instances that closed registration for the purposes of not growing quicker than they could handle long term (see lemmy.ml). Beehaw has most of the largest (and therefore defacto default) communities. Active steps to avoid that would have allowed them to maintain their moderation goals while growing in an organic and sustainable way that benefits the larger threadiverse community.
I was strictly replying to the part of your comment where you said they made a decision to try to be one of the largest instances ā imo they did not make a explicit decision to try to be that, but rather the growth was a side effect of the circumstances around reddit users checking out the fediverse.
Is closing registrations is better than having an application with questions that weed out low-effort users? IMO itās probably a wash. beehaw has only banned one user from the local instance that I know of, so the application process seems to be working overall. The issue is that other instances are growing too quickly and needing to moderate those users, not their own.
I do agree this isnāt great for the threadiverse and I wish it hadnāt come to this, both on a personal and community level. I was subbed to the knitting community on lemmy.world, it was the most active of those communities that I saw, and now Iām locked out. Idk if I want to move to an alt on a different instance, or self-host my own so that Iām fully in control of what I can see, or what. :S
No the issue is that four moderators for the whole instance was always unsustainable and allowing the communities to become the defacto defaults without growing the mod teams was a bad idea. This was easily foreseen and corrected. Blaming other instances is not at all fair.
you do not understand the problem. The growth was on every server of the fedivers - so moderationg users from different servers was to much work. how should they stop people from other servers? two options - block any individuell(which is to much work with so many open registration servers - they can just spamm new servers) or nuke the server where most of the trolls come from.
I DO understand the problem. They only have an issue with an influx of users because they are the largest (defacto default) communities. A position that was incompatible with their moderation system from the get go. Had they had more sustainably sized communities none of this would have been an issue.
There are 4 admins and 30-something mods.
exactly this; the whole point was so instances could pick and choose who they wanted to interact with
Iād always heard that federation was good because if you get an instance infested with fascists, you (and everyone else who doesnāt want anything to do with them) can just cut that instance loose and let it drift away
I guess others thought different?
I mean some people absolutely do love and feed on drama, but is that who we want to attract? Theyāre not the nicest bunch to have around in my experience.
This simply solidifies my opinion that Iāve had all along that Beehaw is a trash instance full of sensitive censor-happy ninnies and I hope they all resolve the issues they are having to eventually be finally free from trolls and assholes in their humble & beautiful walled-garden paradise echo chamber. All the best for them.
Isnāt the whole point of the fediverse that you get to create and craft your experience for your community? Thereās a really good reason defederating is a feature. I donāt get it, Beehaw decides to use the features of federation so now we: firstly become tribalistic (them vs us), and secondly decide to get angry? Like it or not, this is what you signed up for when you wanted federation.
I donāt see the point of getting angry like this, and really donāt see how this negativity being conducive to a thriving community. Some new people are going to explore fediverse, see tribalistic mudslinging among instances, and say ānot for me.ā
Iād say respect their decision and move on, if itās not for you itās not for you.
Yeah, theyāre saying ālook, we only have four mods, have a highly targeted type of community we are trying to build, and have had to disproportionately moderate users from these instancesā which seems reasonable on itās face.
Thatās kind of the beauty of Lemmy/Kbin right? You can spin up an instance with whatever rules you want. I think people are reacting to the fact that during the Reddit exodus Beehaw kind of looked like a ādefaultā general instance, including me.
But thatās a misreading on our part, not them going back on that.
Its both a value add and a negative. For those more focused on their own community (Like beehaw) itās an obvious positive. But for many users, losing access to certain communities on your own instance of choice is going to be a negative. I personally donāt blame Beehaw for favoring the former. I think improved moderation tools and more granular federation would at least make the move less of a blow to users.
Absolutely. Itās disappointing that this person read a post made by the Beehaw admins that was written with nuance and grace, and then decided to respond with vitriol. Thatās exactly the kind of attitude that is so prolific on Reddit, and I am happy to leave it behind. Thank you for your reasoned reply.
OP, I encourage you in the future to choose grace.
This kind of post right here is the gold standard for why I chose Kbin over other instances. Well reasoned, free of vitriol, and looking to build a new culture outside of the one a lot of us left behind on Reddit.
Vitriol is a strong word to describe what I said about Beehaw. I do not hold a bitter spite to what Beehaw did, in fact I understand and accept their decision as prudent and appropriate for their community.
I simply hate how they act benevolent where the reality is the opposite; that their admins are legitimately overlords akin to a full-time power-abusing reddit moderator.
Regarding your comment that I need to act with more grace, my apologies. You are correct, I should be less aggressive in my opinions and will self-censor henceforth to protect and maintain the humility of the discussions that occur here.
I simply hate how they act benevolent where the reality is the opposite; that their admins are legitimately overlords akin to a full-time power-abusing reddit moderator.
What do you mean by this? Do you have examples? Maybe youāre correct and I just havenāt seen it, but every example Iāve seen of them responding to something has been great.
Regarding your comment that I need to act with more grace, my apologies. You are correct, I should be less aggressive in my opinions and will self-censor henceforth to protect and maintain the humility of the discussions that occur here.
Donāt sweat it, brother. <3
yeah, this is the weird thing; Beehawās reasonings are incredibly reasonable, and theyāre not saying that the other parts of Lemmy arenāt good enough for them, which is what I think a lot of people are getting mad at
that and thinking that theyāre entitled to access to Beehaw
100% - the beauty of the fedivers is that everybody can chose to federatre OR NOT!
If people wanne follow beehaw they can switch server or even go to some other fedivers project and follow from there.
Isnāt the whole point of the fediverse that you get to create and craft your experience for your community? Thereās a really good reason defederating is a feature. I donāt get it, Beehaw decides to use the features of federation so now we: firstly become tribalistic (them vs us), and secondly decide to get angry? Like it or not, this is what you signed up for when you wanted federation.
Yes, exactly
like weāre not owed Beehawās cooperation; itās their instance and if the users want to do this then thatās their perogative
Regardless, this is being blown out of proportion; Beehaw outright said that this was temporary
Yeah I donāt feel quite as harshly but as soon as I saw they didnāt allow downvotes I knew their philosophy wasnāt for me. Too bad about losing their gaming group though.
After reading that post, Iām actually pretty glad theyāre leaving.
Iāll be honest, itās weird to not allow downvotes but be on a federated site. Idk if Iām weird or if thatās just me tho. Like if you go to beehaw from another Lemmy instance you can downvote them.
most of the fedivers has no downvote - please be respectfulll of the diferences.
I think you may downvote it but it wonāt be visible on their side.
Thatās been my view too. Thereās definitely a need for moderation, but Iāve been on the internet for quite some time and the vibe from Beehaw is very much concerning. Any time Iāve seen a community run like that, it always always ends up feeling like an echochamber run by a dictator. I want an internet thatās mostly wholesome, not a āhappy fun camp where thereās all smiles and you had better not frown!ā
You are now banned from beehaw.org
I wonder if thereās a Pyongyang community.
ā¦Come to think of it, Lemmygrad probably has one. But Iām not going over there to look.
I have a beehaw account. Iāve only experienced one user whoās a bit too intense about their thoughts. Everyone else has just been chill. The admin arenāt defederating from lemmy.ml, the other big instance, and have no plans to do so. They really were just overwhelmed by the two feds they blocked because of trollish users. Itās not as intense as you make it sound.
And like all echo chambers, it will inevitably collapse
I think itās great. I want an account there for the occassions when I want to visit a safe space or a SFW website. It doesnt have to be your identity. You can go to different instances in different contexts, for different modes of interaction. And a third unrelated instance can remain federated with them both, if thatās amenable to all parties.
I kinda expected that after seeing them purge some threads made by lemmy users. I have to imagine we kbin users are gonna get cut next lmao.
Well we are one of the largest instances out there with open signupsā¦
Good riddance. I like the no-downvote style but overzealous mods just create their own pillow fort of the same 5 users regurgitating the same shit over and over.
Perhaps harsh but beehaw strikes me as the tumblr/progressive/sjw types that really wanna build their safe space. Which makes me wonder why theyāre federating at all lol.
Iām very glad that kbin seems to have a āletās get all the content and speak freelyā sorta vibe going on right now. hopefully things stay that way.
I got the same sense. Authoritarianism runs on both sides of the political spectrum.
While their FAQ touted an emphasis on empathy, the heavy flowery language while also making a point to refuse to have written rules at all somehow gave me a feeling of double-speak. The idea is nice, but now youāre open to being banned because they felt like it, and you canāt even explain how you werenāt breaking the rules if no rules exist. Refusing to allow anyone but themselves to create communities backs up the authoritarian streak. Not interested. I assume if they donāt, Iāll eventually be banned there anyway. I really like debate and I really dislike dictatorships.
At least if one of the largest instances out there goes full Korea, it will leave other instances a chance to be noticed in their wake. It sounds salty, but Iām still getting used to what federation means for a platform and when we were still initially federating my entire feed was utterly nothing but beehaw. I am salty. I want as much variety as I can get.
Yup. Taking a look at their ethos/manifesto stuff it instantly became clear to me what sort of place beehaw is, and itās not one Iām super fond of, so I doubt Iāll ever make an account there.
Yeah beehaw is pretty big at least from my perspective. I see three big communities: lemmy, kbin, and beehaw. and beehaw is easily the odd one out with their weird manifesto stuff lol. Which is why when they said they were defederating from lemmy, it kinda struck me as āoh kbin is next thenā lol. but each of the three kinda have a different vibe to me, so maybe kbin is tolerable to beehaw while lemmy isnāt?
I havenāt had much experience with lemmy at all, in order to guess, and Iāve seen conflicting things about them. Lemmy was already bigger and it feels like it got a lot more publicity than kbin, so they bore the brunt of the exodus. Itās possible they didnāt get as lucky as we did in who that constituted. The devsā weird CCP bent overshadowing some other instancesā reportedly great admins just makes it even more of a confusing mess culture-wise.
Iād like to think we can abide by such stringent
rulesimplications as ābe nice.ā But their stated reasoning is that thereās just too much content to ever hope to moderate by themselves, whichā¦they really should have seen coming on a platform whose intent is to federate, ngl. Doesnāt matter if your homebase is young. You need underlings for this once it gets beyond a couple hundred people.Which is why Iām leaning on the side of beehaw eventually deciding thereās no choice but to defed way more than this until and unless they can afford help. With four admin-mods alone against the mercy of the entire fediverse, their hopes of upholding the mission statement will eventually be laughable any other way.
Not that I think weāre nearly as bad as other places out there. I think weāve got a surprisingly great atmosphere going and I hope to god it stays. But those are their two options, and kbin users seem to have an admirably civil tendency both to shitpost and to question and hear out differing viewpoints in a way Iām not sure beehaw will appreciate.
Yup. I completely agree. I understand why beehaw defederated from lemmy because lemmy kinda seemsā¦ unhinged, in comparison to beehawās carefully crafted community.
Whereas kbin I think youāre right, tend to be happy to civilly hear each other out. whereas I feel like beehaw isnāt really interested in that. Though I think of kbin users respect beehawās way of doing things while weāre in their space, they might not have issues with us.
granted, the response I got was āwe donāt even think about youā so maybe kbin is too small to really be noticeable to them lol.
Unhinged. Youāve found the perfect word for it. They come off to me like what happens in study hall when the instructor has to leave.
granted, the response I got was āwe donāt even think about youā so maybe kbin is too small to really be noticeable to them lol.
Goodness, my pride, lmao. I think Iām quite content not to be such a giant enough instance I get thought of. Hundreds of comfier, smaller places over Reddit Deux any day. I agree, the people here seem on the whole cognizant enough to keep themselves in check, rather thanā¦whatever reddit was. That would be one behavior I am thrilled to see die, and hopefully federating with more chaotic instances wonāt kick it up again. Iām concerned it may.
Beehaw hasnāt really defederated from Lemmy. They still allow the biggest Lemmy instance and a lot of smaller Lemmy instances. What they have done is block 2 of the top 4 (hard to count since the user count tools are having issues here on the lemmy side)ā¦
I first had worries about Lemmy and thought about kbin first, but seems the reddit migration has managed to make the issues minor in my case. Thereās less issues. So, Iām surprised Beehaw had that amount of trolling.
Perhaps harsh but beehaw strikes me as the tumblr/progressive/sjw types that really wanna build their safe space
They literally said they want that instance to be their safe-space, so you are absolutely correct.
Still itās surprising how quickly a block-happy instance appeared, I was expecting it but not only days into this reddit-wave.Iām still figuring out proper tone haha. but yes.
sjw
ahh, itās 2010 again!
Does kbin have good mod tools?
Iām fairly new to kbin but we do have mod tools here, and people have used them to moderate their community. So far I havenāt seen any issues with spam or what Iād say is trolling (though beehaw may think different). As for whether the mod tools are āgoodā I guess is oneās opinion. I find theyāre enough to moderate the small communities I started here on kbin, though I have to imagine much larger (100k-1m) communities might struggle with the tools available. kbin is very new and still under development. so weāll see.
Yeah. I would also imagine that a place like Beehaw is going to attract bad actors and trolls who want to wreck the place at the expense of Beehaw users, who specifically joined in order to have a community of nice people to hang out with.
the vibe here on kbin is I think very similar to what you might find on more serious subreddits or on something like hacker news. weāre interested in content, discussion, etc. but thereās not really overt trolling. I rarely see āshitpostingā and other stuff as well. If you think ānerds who wanna talk about stuff and share news/contentā youāve got the right gist. I donāt really think anyone Iāve seen here would go out of there way to cause problems. but kbin does have open signups (not invite).
idk what the mindset is for lemmy, beehaw, and the rest of the fediverse, but I think due to the long downtime for federation here on kbin thereās this vibe of āwe have kbin stuff, and then we have stuff from those other guysā Itās to the point where someone quickly made a script to be able to easily see where someone is posting from.
In that regard, itās always very obvious to me when Iām among beehaw users and in beehaw communities. same for when Iām in lemmy spaces, or kbin spaces. whereas I think lemmy users may not know or care about that distinction. Though this might just be my own musing and others arenāt thinking like that haha.
Oh? What makes beehaw users different and recognizable?
Really? The tone in Beehaw is obvious yeah, but I thought the tone for kbin and lemmy was slightly similar ā unless things really changed in the few days when federation was down (which is possible)
Not to the degree what Iām used to. Itās very minimal. Itāll probably take a year or two before itās fully there, is my expectation.
Itās not an easy thing to make and it doesnāt have the highest priority generally. Reddit didnāt even have automoderator for years.
there are already users over there asking this very question lol
You might be. Beehaw blocks the most places from what I have seen. And per the discussion on shitjustworks, it seems the mod tool they want is to allow their users to post on other instances but not let outside users post on theirs.
really? thatās kinda yikes lol. like I can post on beehaw just fine from kbin, so Iām not quite sure thatās the case? I think they just want to be able to moderate strictly and theyāve only got like 4 mods over there.
I guess. That is the whole point right? If you like how a instance is run, you join them. And if any beehaw users donāt like this direction itās taking, they can always make another account on Lemmy.
Fediverse allows for great potential of redundant, diverse, and flexible meta content consumption, but we the users are bearing some of that growing pain right now as this all grows and things get shuffled on the fly.
All this talk of defederation and blocklists makes me generally uneasy. I understand how itās easy to fall into. Nobody wants political extremists and criminals and bad actors and stuff on their instance, so it makes sense you might want to ban trollfactory dot xyz, nazihq dot us, and/or uncompromisingmarxist dot boats, or whatever.
But I think the stupidest shit I saw on reddit were the subreddits that would ban you for even posting on an ideologically competing subreddit, with no consideration for the message youād written. This is worse than that because itās the opposite, and includes even reading the content.
Imagine if when you went to post on /r/RestaurantOwners, and its AutoMod had the power to then immediately ban you from even looking at /r/antiwork and /r/WorkReform. Imagine posting to /r/conservative to correct someoneās error only to get permanently banned from viewing any āleftistā subs ever again. This is the vibe I get from this and as much as I want to avoid creating nodules of extremism and hatred, I want less to have people grabbing my head, taping my mouth, and averting my eyes from things they donāt like when they donāt even know what my thinking is.
I feel like widespread trigger happy banlists are the death of small instances, too. Maybe one small instance doesnāt catch some newly registered asshole for a day or two but itās too late. The 16-hour a day lifestyle moderator on a massive instance who has gangstalking delusions over nebulous ātrollsā has already blacklisted all 150 of your users permanently and listed your domain for defederation as officially owned by the Nazi party in a massive register shared by the top 100 largest instances. The number of times Iāve heard this story with small Mastodon instances is more than I care for.
Youāre not banned from looking at anything. Just go to their instance, abide by their signup rules and donāt do the shit they defederated to avoid.
A very good take on the pros and cons of this kind of thing.
Personally as someone with an account on Beehaw I donāt think Iāll mind mostly. Iāve been pretty happy with the communities they have already made and been quite impressed with content amounts.
Letās be honest, this federated forum/link-aggregator is in its infancy. Rexxit brought it into the lime light and just kind of put a magnifying glass on these sorts of growing pains.
Iād like to point out that most of the criticism Iāve seen has come from outside the community. I donāt feel like this will be a long term thing only. Itās really an attempt at trying to preserve the community brand and feeling for its members especially while things are still young.
The admins at Beehaw have been explicit that this choice is not about locking their users in but about keeping bad actors out. But all of this is new, so the tools to accomplish that are crude for now.
Yeah, I personally would understand the decision more if they at least tried having mods. They donāt. Their mods are just the admins. The admins are also the only ones able to make communities (magazines for kbin viewers) on beehaw.
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this is interesting!
Certainly so. From a sort ofā¦ sociological point Iām wondering what the impacts are of major instances growing independent of each other. I feel like I can already feel it with kbin and lemmy both growing separately during the blackout. Iām wondering if the trend for major instances is going to be where each one has their own unique culture or if they will eventually homogenize.
Only real concern here, although I didnāt participate during the mastodon surge last year, I heard that defederation became a bit of an issue with how common there. Granted, I feel like the impact is probably less here with the fact that you are interacting with topics rather than people.
Iām personally hoping for a unique culture, especially since we currently have quite a good one. Going solo is just going solo ā itās sad and kinda dumb, since it defeats the entire point of the fediverse, but if theyāre ok hanging out on a closed forum itās not like those havenāt existed for decades.
I hadnāt thought something like Mastodon would be able to defederate. Thinking about it, that would be far more disastrous for a platform aimed at following individuals to be able to do. The stress induced from having to choose an instance knowing they block other instances and being unable to even tell if thatās a bad thing or not until you investigate each and every one anyway. Having to look up what your favorite people are on, if youāre on Mastodon, so you can get news without leaving any of them out. What a mess.
Theyāre not going solo though. They are still connected to hundreds of other instances. Including Lemmy.ml, which is still the biggest instance.
Additionally, the Beehaw admins have said theyāre open to refederating with lemmy.world et al if/when Lemmy gets better moderation tools.
they defederated from Lemmy.world and the other one, thatās it
theyāre not closing themselves off; they made it very clear what they were doing and why; people keep just catastrophizing about it over and over for some reason
like they made it clear what they were doing and that it wouldnāt necessarily be permanent
i think it really depends on the admin. I saw many threads on mastodon of hundreds of instances defederated with and listed reasons. some made sense, others did not.
Defederation is inevitable, it will happen on kbin once rules are established, however less harsh measures can also be applied https://docs.joinmastodon.org/admin/moderation/#limit-server
Lemmy specifically hasnāt implemented less harsh measures yet. This is a stop-gap action to cut off a trolling problem at its source. The beehaw admins say they will reevaluate when less drastic tools are available, e.g. allow beehaw users to interact with lemmy.world but not the other way around.
Iām not sure I 100% agree, personally, but beehawās ethos is ābe(e) niceā and if trolls are trolling, it can make it very hard for some people to open up and contribute. So I see where itās coming from.
They should be running a standard forum software, but are already in too deep to fix the actual problem.
The sad reality is that during the reddit blackout, people were pushing lemmy (specifically Beehaw) as the reddit replacement because yay decentralized, federated, fun!
For a lot of those reddit refugees the effort they put into making content and trying to make Beehaw their home is gone now.
Theyāre not going to want to start all over at a new instance and rebuild yet again.
Theyāre just going to go back to reddit
Exactly. Iāve been trying to rebuild my account on lemmy.world but itās disenheartening and honestly makes me want to not bother. The answer isnt defederating, the answer is find some mods.
I feel like the concept of ādecentralisationā is good for the consuming users and people who want to discuss an interesting topic/subject, but not really for OC/content craetorsā¦ They just want their work to be as exposed to as many people as possible (exposure -> more clients -> bigger brand/value -> profit???), and defederalisating goes against that principle.
I think the issue is that everyoneās so focused on seeing Lemmy as a ānotRedditā that they outright get pissed when it doesnāt work the way they think it should (like Reddit except the parts they think are bad)
Lemmy (and kbin, and other similar platforms) and Reddit have the same niche, but theyāre not the same thing
They canāt scale. They will die.
Or theyāll just be a smallish instance building the kind of community they want to build. Thereās nothing wrong with knowing what you want to be and not trying to be more.
Ostensibly they donāt wish to scale at the expense of the quality of their community.
They canāt scale. They will survive, though. Other generic Lemmy servers are overshadowing Beehaw as a generic Lemmy server. And it is fine for both them and Beehaw, IMO.
my friend ive been on beehaw since it launched. we dont care for scaling.
What if they donāt want to scale?
Thatās fair, buuuuut why are the admins moderating comments? Why shouldnāt the moderators mod their communities and report problematic users to admins so those users can be blocked.
The admins are probably modding the communities because they probably created them but the proper solution should be to find mods, not just defederate
Itās not a permanent defederation, and itās only with those two instances. There are still hundreds of other instances that they are still federated with.
Like this one Iām on right now.
(Tbh, Iām surprised how much kbin and lemmy are compatible with one another despite using different codebases)Honestly the more I see how well such federated sites can connect with each other gives me more hope for the future of federated sites
@AndreTelevise @BreadDog @SQL_InjectMe @GuyDudeman Itās even kinda compatible with mastodon!
While true, beehaw hosts some of the largest communities so itās still a loss (temporarily). As long as they find mods within a week things will be fine.
No one on beehaw can create communities except the admins, with the promise that they will personally split the ones they have into more distinct topics as it becomes necessary. As such, that also makes them automatically the mods. Itās one of the reasons I decided against it, as well asā¦ * gestures to headline. *
I was quite curious what removing the downvote button would do to foster actual discussion, since its use is frowned upon in my one remaining reddit kebble sub, and everyone who remains each week is shockingly cordial with one another. Pity to see beehaw crashing and burning so fast like this.
Is it crashing and burning if it aligns with their explicitly stated goals? Seems like theyāre sticking to their guns and having a well moderated community by doing this. Some people will want that, some wonāt. But if we want this federation thing to work, we canāt start whining about instances making choices about what their users interact with. If anything Iām glad this is happening early so that people can see how the federation stuff will play out and get used to the idea.
Having thought it over, I think the only two ways this can go are that beehaw defederates with almost everyone who isnāt a carbon copy of themselves in order to lighten the load, or they put more admins/mods in control (is this possible? I assume it is). Nothing else is going to stem interaction between yāallās instance and every person and post on the fediverse that breaks the rules. What they wanted to do is admirable, but really doesnāt scale well with the amount of interaction being seen now.
Temporary measures while they expand their abilities would be the much more expected way for this to go. If instead their solution is to just defederate everything all the time forever because people not signed up for beehaw didnāt sign up for beehawās rules, they might as well have built a wordpress forum for way less money than theyāre spending. Thereās going to be too much.
Iām a bit confused by your comment. They say in their post that they will reevaluate when Lemmyās mod tools improve. More granular control over federation could help too. Itās a temporary measure.
Itās not like theyāre taking extreme action because they want to cause schisms. āThey will defederate with everyoneā only seems to apply if every other huge instance also has high numbers of trolls. Maybe not so unlikely, but mod tools on Lemmy will hopefully improve by then. Note: you sign up for beehawās rules when you choose to interact on beehaw, not when you sign up to beehaw. The issue they are dealing with here is that they have had to disproportionately moderate users interacting on beehaw coming from those instances.
And at the end of the day, if beehaw becomes too isolated, it takes like 5 clicks to open a different instance in my browser and sign up there instead.
For reference, Beehaw blocks almost 400 instances.
Iām assuming most are troublesome communities and it makes sense. But, I do worry they are block happy. I wish they at least had reasons listed or a megathread with reasons for transparency.
To be honest? I donāt like the decision I wish there was a better way to handle this, this might make users not want to join the fediverse out of fear of losing contact with communities that they participate in.
Just make an extra accountā¦ I donāt know about you, but I have a ton of reddit accounts, on reddit I already kept my participation separated and I used containers to quickly switch between them. Itās fine, I wouldnāt even notice a difference.
This would make senseā¦ if Beehaw wasnāt invite-only.
there is still enough serves that you can register that are not blocked by beehaw - or you can interact with mastodon/calckey software with lemmy and kbin. so easy.
Ultimately this is because beehaw allowed themselves to become one of the largest instances on the threadiverse with only FOUR mods. Any blame on the other instances/mod tools is deflection. This is poor management at itās core and is bad for the larger community. That said I would love to see more in the way of improved mod tools.
I think this is a fair choice for Beehaw to make, but I am frustrated that now I have less content to read. I wish we had better community discovery tools.
Can I get a ELI5 or a source or something?
If you make an account on beehaw you cant see anything from lemmy.world or sh.itjust.works. Same in the opposite direction.
And what happens if users from lemmy.world were already following beehaw communities?
As far as I know the content is duplicated on each server federated, on demand by users requesting content. My guess is that the content will be frozen on the defederation date. Your server wonāt be able to read, or maybe read, but certainly not write to the other server, and the conversations there will happen without you.
sh.itjust.works user checking in, my experience seems to confirm that theory. I can still see content from beehaw that Iām subscribed to from before they defederated.
Iāll upvote myself then.
beehaw blocked lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works. so people on beehaw canāt see lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works content/users and vice versa.
