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The commenter is correct. If Tlaib were advocating being uncommitted in the actual election, the cartoon would be correct, but this is what primaries are for.
Just look at the Lemmy (highly Progressive demographic) comments around this protest. Lots of “I will not vote for genocide” comments all around.
And bringing up that their refusal to vote for Hillary for similar protests, I.E. “I will not vote for DNC corruption” , contributed to Trumps 2016 win, that resulted in generations of damage, all you get is denials, that the DNC made them do it.
So yeah. Academically, you’re right. They are not saying they will not vote for Biden in the general election. But if the progressive dialog around this protest is any indicator, there are many who will not.
Progressives are the easiest vote to disenfranchise. All it takes is one wedge issue, and they are out.
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Progressives are the easiest vote to disenfranchise. All it takes is one wedge issue, and they are out.
And then you have the corollary on the other side - for some on the far right, all it takes is one wedge issue to drive them in. Gun control, abortion, etc. I think that’s why we have to have an uphill battle every four years.
All it takes is one wedge issue, and they [progressives] are out.
More like all it takes is one Republican president to completely destroy the country. The fact that we’re even at this point, despite all the “checks and balances” should tell you that the “generational damage” is unavoidable at this point. What’s really gross is that liberals assign the blame to other leftists rather than uniting on these causes and forcing Biden and the DNC to be better.
I’d like to make an analogy. This is a much lower-stakes example, but several years ago, there was a huge push in the gaming community to stop preordering. If a development company hits their sales numbers with preorders, why bother delivering what you promised? Why bother even delivering a working game?
It is the same in politics. By giving the DNC and Biden your vote now, by loudly proclaiming that Biden is the only choice, you are saying that there is no need for course correction. There is no need for them to push harder on healthcare, or climate change, or wealth inequality, or any other issue, because you’ve given your power away. And because of that, we stay at the brink of collapse (and arguably inch closer), where one Republican president is all it takes to destroy everything we’ve tried to build in this country.
Edit: I really should clarify that we lose our power by not seriously considering other candidates and political parties. I don’t want to advocate for simply not voting. There are people out there who want the job but don’t want to bend the knee to capitalists.
So your solution is to just hand the country over to the Nazis because you don’t want to accept that “not Nazis” is good enough.
Smart.
Edit - I know that’s reductionist, but I’ve had this argument too much. My comment above highlights a way to course correct in the democratic way, without condemning this country to the Republicans to a point of no return.
I’d say the idea of using the primary to voice concerns about what’s happening in Gaza is the least harmful path for people who really care about stopping fascism in both countries. Dems need to really hear that there is a problem that needs to be addressed, and voting uncommitted is literally the least you can do.
Dems stand to lose a lot of votes if they continue to be silent for the “hug Bibi” policy.
Also, sorry, but I don’t understand what alternative you’re suggesting for this course-correction. Can you clarify?
For the record, my proposal is to hash this conversation out during the primaries and then go all-hands on deck for Dems in November. Because we have to.
I was mistaken, the comment I was referring to was in a different comment thread
Basically, promote progressives in the lower elections, get the foundation needed for a progressive presidential candidate to succeed.
I’m glad that you have the mindset to vote blue in the end. My issue here is that a lot of Lemmy progressives have at least indicated that they will boycott the party come November. Which is a big fucking problem.
And messaging like this only serves to siphon off votes, despite the technical distinction between primary and general elections.
I agree there’s a problem, and I agree about supporting progressive candidates when available.
I think this is being taken as the only option mostly because a lot of strong progressive voices sat out this primary.
Fair enough, to your point about people on Lemmy planning to make mistakes in November. I suspect those people aren’t the same ones voting uncommitted in the primary, though.
I mostly see those as motivated progressives trying to raise an alarm so Dems can course correct here. If Dems listened, they might give us more ammo to persuade those Lemmy users who aren’t on board.
I for one already voted uncommitted, and unless the genocidal ethnostate gets cut loose I’m not voting for Biden in November
I understand your position, and I worry what will happen if Trump wins as well. But my position is not “hand the country over to Nazis.” My position is actually “we are currently handing our country over to Nazis and we need to stop!”
Your right with respect to the never Hillary / DNC corruption crowd. The problem now is the “wedge issue” your referring to right now is a literal genocide. The morality of an endorsement of Biden being complicit, if not directly supporting through gifts of arms, in the knowing murder of tens of thousands of civilians, actively protecting the aggressor in the UN, is just so starkly different.
It’s plainly wrong now, and the history that is written of the US support for this genocide will be ugly and dark. Sometime many years from now my daughter may learn about this and ask what I did, and so is my answer that I voted to support the leader who made the genocide possible because that was the lessor of two evils? Perhaps that’s the right choice, Trump and Republicans are objectively worse for her future, but “Yes I supported Genocide Joe, but…” is not a very satisfying answer.
Another problem though is enthusiasm. I may ultimately vote for the lessor of two evils, but I can’t imagine feeling inspired to donate or knock on doors for the genocide candidate.
It’s a fucked situation.
Ok, so you’re on the fence about taking the bait on the genocide wedge issue. I get it, Gaza is a travesty.
But voting Red or Blue doesn’t change that. Voting independent or not voting doesn’t change that. There is no way that anyone who is against supporting Isreal will win this election. 0 chance.
Genocide in Ukraine and beyond actually is on the table, though. If Trump wins, the US will stop Ukraine support on day 1, and actually be actively discouraging NATO support, at best. And that’s just genocide, let alone everything else Trump will destroy.
If your thinking about your conscience long term, think about that.
That’s fair. Another option, which might sound crazy but hear me out, is maybe the president just stops funding genocide. Fucking Regan told Israel to stop fighting in Lebanon and they did. So maybe our democratic president, dependent on left wing voters for support, should think about having at least as much balls as Regan. Then maybe Biden wouldn’t have to avoid college campuses: https://twitter.com/ryangrim/status/1763606297214152819
Instead of worrying about whether people like me will ultimately swallow support for one genocide in favor of protecting other issues, maybe worry about the 120 year old guy willing to tank his reelection just to support a genocide. If Biden loses it’s not because lefties didn’t fall in line, it’s because Biden failed as a leader in building a coalition. We ended up with Trump the first time cause Hillary was a shit politician. We’ll end up with Trump again for the same reason.
No it’ll be because of you, and when you’re getting dragged away. Your ideals, won’t matter. But having installed a flat out dictator (that will 100% support Israel and destroy the Ukraine). You’re going to say " I didn’t vote against the dictator but it’s not my fault!"
But hey! In your own mind you can blame someone else! That’ll make it alright? When LGBTQs are getting run down in the streets, it’s legal to rape women, and religious indoctrination invades every facet of American life. You can sit back be smug and say I did that!
Example #36473 of Dems being weirdly gleeful talking about all the terrible things Republicans are going to do to women an queer people.
I wonder why people don’t trust you guys lol
Also not voting doesn’t make you complicit lol. Fucking Lemmy’s.
How is he a dictator? Also he will die soon. So not a long dictatorship. Maybe not even a full term.
No the wedge issue, is losing everyone in THIS COUNTRY the right to vote FOREVER.
You think the first round of Trump was bad, when he gets back in because of fucktards like you. He ain’t leaving, and it won’t be pretty for any of you “progressive”, I’m voting my ideals types.
With “allies” like you who needs republicans
Seriously…fucking libs.
But isn’t it a threat to withhold support in the campaign process? So they’d vote for Biden but not urge others to do so, potentially leading to a Hillary moment in November.
Which makes the image accurate: Trump isn’t standing there allied with them, he’s snuck up behind them because they’re unwittingly giving him cover.
It’s a threat made during the process where the candidate is chosen, which is how it should be - once he’s on the ballot as the candidate is the time to unify.
Unless Biden refuses to listen and is still committing Genocide of course
Yeah, in that case we may as well let Trump win. That’ll go well for all the American minorities and LGBT folks and nonchristians and socialists. I mean, there’s a genocide on in another country, what difference does it make if your sister goes to prison for seeking an abortion after she’s raped? And all those people wanting IVF? Fuckem. If the Nine Godkings of this country decide unilaterally that all embryos are children and every sperm is sacred because a christofascist annointed them, that’s fine. At least you didn’t vote for the guy that wouldn’t have annointed those christofascist Godkings.
Traditionally, candidates for President try to earn votes. The position of democrats now is “fuck you, vote for me or else.” And maybe that would hold some value if this was some small disagreement over marijuana legalization or the timing of single payer healthcare. But it’s not, Democrats are asking voters to endorse genocide cause the other guy is worse. And you want to yell at the people morally opposed to genocide for not getting onboard, instead of yelling at the politicians losing support among his base because of the genocide he’s supporting. Your directing your anger at the wrong people.
A tidbit from this afternoon’s politico newsletter:
“How Biden aides are trying to shield the president from protests,” by NBC’s Monica Alba, Carol Lee, Peter Alexander and Elyse Perlmutter-Gumbiner: “Biden’s team is increasingly taking extraordinary steps to minimize disruptions from pro-Palestinian protests at his events by making them smaller, withholding their precise locations from the media and the public until he arrives, avoiding college campuses and, in at least one instance, considering hiring a private company to vet attendees.
“The efforts have resulted in zero disruptions at events the White House or the campaign have organized for Biden in the five weeks since he was interrupted a dozen times during an abortion rights speech in Virginia. But they have also meant that Biden is appearing in front of fewer voters and not personally engaging with some of the key constituencies whose support he is struggling to gain, such as young voters.”
He ain’t wrong … The Intercept’s Ryan Grim observes: “A Democratic campaign that is scared of college campuses is not a campaign that can win given today’s coalitions”
I fully agree that Biden needs to do better. That any president doesn’t hamper the efforts of foreign governments to commit genocide, let alone support those government’s efforts, is a legitimate travesty worth protesting against. Supporting Israel is plainly losing him votes.
I also don’t like Biden. I hate the guy. I’m not upset at people for being upset at him, I’m upset at people who’ll refuse to vote for him if the choice is between him and Trump. I have friends whose lives are materially worse because Trump won in 2016, and I have even more friends whose lives will be even worse if he wins again in 2024. I don’t care if lemmings hate me for saying we need to vote for whatever democrat is on the ballot in November. If it’s not Biden, good. If it is Biden, suck it up and vote blue anyway. Every single person who could possibly be president in 2024 does support Israel, so we must look at what else they’ll do to decide which one should win.
A vote is not an endorsement, it’s just an attempt to steer the country. If we don’t vote, Republicans will, and doomer leftists will be forced to realize all too late that actually, fascism is worse than voting for Biden.
Your totally right, and I agree with you. I’ll end up voting for the guy and hate every second of it, moreso than the first time I voted for him. I think my point, to the extent I have one and I’m not convinced of that, is that democratic voters at large need to spend less time browbeating the idealists and more time demanding the Biden administration/campaign actually, you know, build a coalition. The current strategy of Biden pissing off his base with genocide, hiding from young voters, shifting to the right on like every policy (“give me the authority and I will shut down the border”), and just hoping that other Democrats will yell at the idealists until they abandon their ideals and fall in line, just doesn’t sound like a winning reelection campaign.
I came of political age with Obama in '08. We were inspired and hopeful, yes we can was a real feeling, I donated, door knocked in a swing state, I took that experience into other local elections. Now we’re going on a decade of uninspiring Dem candidates we are basically just guilted into voting for cause the other guy is worse, so we mostly begrudgingly swallow our misgivings and vote for the lessor of two evils. I just don’t know that that can sustain through another cycle, and the whole genocide thing isn’t helping. The problem isn’t that we’re not yelling at idealists to fall in line loud enough. The problem, in my view, is that we’re yelling at the idealists at all, instead of our leaders who are taking their support for granite.
How do you know they aren’t also directing anger at the Democrats? They exist outside of this thread…
Exactly. So make sure to tell Biden to stop committing Genocide or what you just said is going to happen exactly how you just said it.
He will, as will anyone following US foreign policy, which is anyone who could ever currently be elected. We need to get better candidates in office, but until we can, we have to work with the lesser evils we have.
This isn’t even a lesser evil thing. One guy is openly stating he will destroy democracy in this country.
I mean, these people have serious fuck around and find out problems.
So vote for the dictator! That’ll show’em.
The added noise though will confuse the average voter that doesn’t even know that primaries are a thing. People will carry their beliefs with them to November at this point.
Doubt it. People like that vote based on whatever the prevailing attitude is right when they vote and nothing else matters.
Great. The sooner Biden feels his election is in danger, the sooner little kids can stop having their legs amputated without anesthetics.
So vote Trump increase it there AND bring it here!
I mean your logic is infallible! What could go wrong installing a dictator that openly wants to destroy you! That’ll show them!
Why is it that when democrats don’t get what they want they lash out against the actual left, instead of the far-rightists (who are actually making things worse)?
I still see democrats blaming “Bernie bros” for costing them the election, which is seriously wrong.
I wouldn’t be surprised if eventually some of them begin to blame “the woke” for their defeats
Look at the LGB drop the TQ+ “movement”
LGB peoples saying that trans and queer people co-opted “their” movement. In reality it was a failing movement that was catalyzed by the actions at the Stonewall Inn on June 28th 1969.
The establishment has always been trying to demonize and blame the radicals.
As a queer man it makes me really angry that there are queer people who won’t even learn the fucking history, trans people were instrumental at the start of LGBT civil rights. If anything lgb drop the t is an attempt to co opt the movement.
Yes there are even people who try to assert that Marsha Johnson was “just a gay man” as if she was not a trans woman and had been recognized as such by her community for mad long.
Stonewall was a riot. Bring your own brick. We can share bricks tho if youre running short
Check out the history of the brothel that saved Seattle in the late 1800s. The madam’s quote was, “All our ladies are dressed in white.” But there’s a photo all of the women in the brothel, some of whom are dressed in black.
She did some other amazing and progressive things for that time period. It’s a fascinating piece history for this city.
LGB peoples saying that trans and queer people co-opted “their” movement
Small interjection, but every time I went to the LGBdtT subreddit, it was mostly straight people “sticking up for” LGB people, and not really a place for discussing sexuality at all, just railing against trans people.
Why is it that when democrats don’t get what they want they lash out against the actual left, instead of the far-rightists
why would they attack those they are most closely aligned with? It makes perfect sense for them to lash out at those who actually threaten their existence…
https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/10/14/liberalism-and-fascism-partners-in-crime/
If I had a nickel for every time establishment Dems blamed progressives for their own failure to be anything more than marginally better than actual nazis, I would be rich enough to buy me a Democratic senator.
Yea but AIPAC would probably be able to outbid you.
ITT: people who don’t know how the American electoral system works.
If Trump is polling higher than Biden (he is) then abstaining from voting only allows Trump to gain a wider lead on Biden because MAGA voters are unified and couldn’t give 2 shits if brown people in Gaza are being slaughtered in the streets. Literally every single POTUS, both Democrat and Republican, since 1948 (including Obama) have supported Israel. It’s official US foreign policy. Trump changed the location of the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem as a symbolic “fuck you” to Palestine, and he will increase the violence in the region by giving more money to Israel (probably by removing all money given to Ukraine).
Vote accordingly, but cut the fucking shit about your conscientious objectionism. You aren’t accomplishing shit.
#BidenOrFascismYourChoice
It’s the primaries, dipshit
Bidens disapproval rating was already over 55% before Oct 7th. This made it worse obviously. I think he can win by a landslide and actually get more approval than he had before if he just calls for a permanent ceasefire.
https://www.reuters.com/graphics/USA-BIDEN/POLL/nmopagnqapa/
Literally all Biden has to do to clench the election is demand a ceasefire and halt aid if Israel refuses. Most voters will look past his many failures during the 1st term if he does that.
Just don’t be genocidal. It’s such an incredibly low bar.
All democrats had to do was run any of the many progressive candidates in 2020 because we all knew exactly what we were getting w/ Biden. It’s just too fucking late to change ships. If any one of these anti-genocide voters primaried for Biden they fucked up and you know it had to be a good portion of them.
I mean the fuck up was 2016 and Bernie…
Even 2020 was triage of massive bleeding and continues to be today.
The only hope now is to keep Trump out of office at all cost and work on 2028…
Nothing else matters, even the genocide as horrible as it is. If Trump wins all bets are off and they’ll never be another chance in our lifetime.
I need to make a list of things really at stake during this elect:
-Democracy
-Supreme Court governing from the bench
-gay marriage
-trans rights
Unfortunately Isreal is not on the table. That’s because democrats need to do better and stop primarying center right coorpo’s.
Just to start us off.
If this “democracy” is a bipartisan consensus on unlimited genocide, I say fuck this democracy, let it burn.
I mean you think that actually matters? You’re so cute!
First, yes, this is US foreign policy. That doesn’t give it any legitimacy though. They killed and raped Palestinians in 1948 too and ever since then, all with US backing. All Biden has to do is pick up the phone, call Netanyahu, say “we are not going to fund this anymore”. Thats it. Although, he won’t and it wouldn’t even mean that US aid to israel would stop altogether. An example is multiple states have their employee pension funds tied up in israel bonds, including NY and Texas.
The MAGA campaign is pushing this narrative so the dem base will just argue amongst themselves.
It’s a huge own goal. You’ll end up with Trump through sheer ineptitude.
You aren’t accomplishing shit.
the fucking irony lol
https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/10/14/liberalism-and-fascism-partners-in-crime/
The primary is exactly where we should be voicing intra party grievances.
Is this a meme? Is this a microblog meme?
Yeah this is in fact pretty dicks, and I’m saying it as someone who’s been arguing with people here about not voting / voting third party in November. Absolutely send in a message / protest vote in the primaries.
i love all these little assholes who think they know what should happen over there, and what Joe ought to be doing different
It’s darkly funny how the commenter in OP’s clip doesn’t realize how exactly part of the problem he is.
So because this “uncommitted vote” bit is new to me: if I were to vote uncommitted for the Dems, does that still count as a vote against Trump/Republicans, or is it effectively the same as not voting? Because if it’s the former then I would very much like to vote uncommitted because while Biden sucks, Trump sucks worse.
It’s in the primary. 100% vote uncommitted in the primary, Biden is the democratic nominee and this won’t swing it. Then absolutely vote Biden in November, because of the aforementioned sucking worse, with dry mouth and teeth.
The phase of election this is taking place in is the Primary: which is an internal party process for determining a nominee for the general election. This year Biden will be the Democratic Party’s nominee no matter what anyone votes or who else ran.
So Democratic Party voters who disagree with Biden’s executive and foreign policy who have no representation or candidate to support are doing the only thing they can to try and be heard before Biden officially runs against Trump: voting Uncommitted.
This is what Tlaib supported and the political maneuver is all about: to try convince Biden that supporting Israel’s genocide in Gaza is risking not just his reelection chances, but the Democratic Party as a whole since genocide is an incredibly effective wedge issue.
It’s not an effective wedge issue though. The only thing it can be effective at is putting Trump in office.
That would be the absolute definition of an effective wedge issue.
Look Biden will most certainly get his votes in the general election for the most part because of the threat Trump poses.
However right now supporting Israel uncritically and unconditionally is undeniably more alienating and isolating politically than it ever has been. There is an extremely wide open field of leverage and restraint on Israel Biden could be flexing which would both be humanitarian and a political win for him. Maybe the ‘Uncommitted’ vote here will compel him to look into that. Maybe not though, given his trajectory.
In the UK most people don’t realise we can vote “none”, it wouldn’t surprise me if there is a little known rule that would allow you to do something similar.
That’s not how US elections work in a two party system. Not voting is the same as voting for Trump
I hate and won’t support what Israel is doing. However it’s not like Palestine hasn’t been offered another cease fire and refused it likely because they don’t want to admit the hostages are dead. It is a bad situation all around. Biden has provided food aid to the Palestinians and tried to stop Netanyahu from continuing the offense, yet you don’t hear about that from a lot of these media sites.
Why are you saying Palestine? Israel are claiming they are fighting Hamas. Hamas aren’t interchangeable with Palestine. Israel are indiscriminately murdering innocent Palestinians, none of these people have “refused a ceasefire”. Whats worse about all this is Hamas wouldn’t even exist is Israel hadn’t funded them.
Hamas is presently the government of Palestine. The majority of people there voted them in. Whether they did so knowing what Hamas would do with that power, who really knows. So yes there are innocent civilians being caught in the middle of this conflict. Some are being used as shields by Hamas and if you are truthful, some certainly understand that. But a lot of them are just kids and they don’t understand. I’ve said since Oct. 7th that the only side I’ll be on is the one not killing kids. You tell me which side that is in your opinion, because frankly I’m not seeing one.
Majority of voters, not the majority of people. If your going to bring up the election, you need mention that it was 18 years ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election
The majority of people in Palestine weren’t even alive when Hamas won the election. That’s just Zionist propaganda to make it look like Palestinians deserve the genocide, and you’re repeating it.
And yet you elide over my real question…which side isn’t killing kids? That is the side I’m going to stand up for.
So you side with the Palestinians then. The innocent people being murdered so their land can be stolen. Glad we got that cleared up.
Nice username. Try applying for Reddit again
Reminder that Wapo is literal israeli Genocide propaganda and hires Zionists to write slander like this meme.
Washington Post wrote a slander piece against Electronic Intifada for not blindly repeating the now debunked NYT rape propaganda. Washington Post lied in that article and claimed that Electronic Intifada denied the Holocaust.
People who tell you to keep voting for Biden no matter what are Zionist trolls that want israel to keep committing genocide.
So your option? Vote Trump who will absolutely continue or probably escalate support for Israel. And destroy democracy here? (Oops forget about that?) You’re a smart one! Lemme tell you! Your math is fantastic!
“Democracy” is when all candidates are corporate owned and a system designed by slaveowners 300 years ago decides the election.
Let’s hold off the real domestic threat first, then push the party left a bit OK?
We are talking about primaries here. Trump isn’t a factor.
I’m talking about the larger picture.
So an empty threat than? Great argument.
Most accurate comic I’ve seen in forever.
Trump is a generational threat to democracy in this country. Abstain or vote for him (same thing) in November and it’ll be the last time you vote.
But hey you’ll “show them” !
Again. This was a primary. They didn’t let Trump win.
Refusal to criticize an obviously flawed leader is what perpetuates the MAGA cult to this day
