The commenter is correct. If Tlaib were advocating being uncommitted in the actual election, the cartoon would be correct, but this is what primaries are for.
Just look at the Lemmy (highly Progressive demographic) comments around this protest. Lots of “I will not vote for genocide” comments all around.
And bringing up that their refusal to vote for Hillary for similar protests, I.E. “I will not vote for DNC corruption” , contributed to Trumps 2016 win, that resulted in generations of damage, all you get is denials, that the DNC made them do it.
So yeah. Academically, you’re right. They are not saying they will not vote for Biden in the general election. But if the progressive dialog around this protest is any indicator, there are many who will not.
Progressives are the easiest vote to disenfranchise. All it takes is one wedge issue, and they are out.
Progressives are the easiest vote to disenfranchise. All it takes is one wedge issue, and they are out.
And then you have the corollary on the other side - for some on the far right, all it takes is one wedge issue to drive them in. Gun control, abortion, etc. I think that’s why we have to have an uphill battle every four years.
All it takes is one wedge issue, and they [progressives] are out.
More like all it takes is one Republican president to completely destroy the country. The fact that we’re even at this point, despite all the “checks and balances” should tell you that the “generational damage” is unavoidable at this point. What’s really gross is that liberals assign the blame to other leftists rather than uniting on these causes and forcing Biden and the DNC to be better.
I’d like to make an analogy. This is a much lower-stakes example, but several years ago, there was a huge push in the gaming community to stop preordering. If a development company hits their sales numbers with preorders, why bother delivering what you promised? Why bother even delivering a working game?
It is the same in politics. By giving the DNC and Biden your vote now, by loudly proclaiming that Biden is the only choice, you are saying that there is no need for course correction. There is no need for them to push harder on healthcare, or climate change, or wealth inequality, or any other issue, because you’ve given your power away. And because of that, we stay at the brink of collapse (and arguably inch closer), where one Republican president is all it takes to destroy everything we’ve tried to build in this country.
Edit: I really should clarify that we lose our power by not seriously considering other candidates and political parties. I don’t want to advocate for simply not voting. There are people out there who want the job but don’t want to bend the knee to capitalists.
So your solution is to just hand the country over to the Nazis because you don’t want to accept that “not Nazis” is good enough.
Smart.
Edit - I know that’s reductionist, but I’ve had this argument too much. My comment above highlights a way to course correct in the democratic way, without condemning this country to the Republicans to a point of no return.
I’d say the idea of using the primary to voice concerns about what’s happening in Gaza is the least harmful path for people who really care about stopping fascism in both countries. Dems need to really hear that there is a problem that needs to be addressed, and voting uncommitted is literally the least you can do.
Dems stand to lose a lot of votes if they continue to be silent for the “hug Bibi” policy.
Also, sorry, but I don’t understand what alternative you’re suggesting for this course-correction. Can you clarify?
For the record, my proposal is to hash this conversation out during the primaries and then go all-hands on deck for Dems in November. Because we have to.
I was mistaken, the comment I was referring to was in a different comment thread
Basically, promote progressives in the lower elections, get the foundation needed for a progressive presidential candidate to succeed.
I’m glad that you have the mindset to vote blue in the end. My issue here is that a lot of Lemmy progressives have at least indicated that they will boycott the party come November. Which is a big fucking problem.
And messaging like this only serves to siphon off votes, despite the technical distinction between primary and general elections.
I agree there’s a problem, and I agree about supporting progressive candidates when available.
I think this is being taken as the only option mostly because a lot of strong progressive voices sat out this primary.
Fair enough, to your point about people on Lemmy planning to make mistakes in November. I suspect those people aren’t the same ones voting uncommitted in the primary, though.
I mostly see those as motivated progressives trying to raise an alarm so Dems can course correct here. If Dems listened, they might give us more ammo to persuade those Lemmy users who aren’t on board.
I understand your position, and I worry what will happen if Trump wins as well. But my position is not “hand the country over to Nazis.” My position is actually “we are currently handing our country over to Nazis and we need to stop!”
Your right with respect to the never Hillary / DNC corruption crowd. The problem now is the “wedge issue” your referring to right now is a literal genocide. The morality of an endorsement of Biden being complicit, if not directly supporting through gifts of arms, in the knowing murder of tens of thousands of civilians, actively protecting the aggressor in the UN, is just so starkly different.
It’s plainly wrong now, and the history that is written of the US support for this genocide will be ugly and dark. Sometime many years from now my daughter may learn about this and ask what I did, and so is my answer that I voted to support the leader who made the genocide possible because that was the lessor of two evils? Perhaps that’s the right choice, Trump and Republicans are objectively worse for her future, but “Yes I supported Genocide Joe, but…” is not a very satisfying answer.
Another problem though is enthusiasm. I may ultimately vote for the lessor of two evils, but I can’t imagine feeling inspired to donate or knock on doors for the genocide candidate.
Ok, so you’re on the fence about taking the bait on the genocide wedge issue. I get it, Gaza is a travesty.
But voting Red or Blue doesn’t change that. Voting independent or not voting doesn’t change that. There is no way that anyone who is against supporting Isreal will win this election. 0 chance.
Genocide in Ukraine and beyond actually is on the table, though. If Trump wins, the US will stop Ukraine support on day 1, and actually be actively discouraging NATO support, at best. And that’s just genocide, let alone everything else Trump will destroy.
If your thinking about your conscience long term, think about that.
That’s fair. Another option, which might sound crazy but hear me out, is maybe the president just stops funding genocide. Fucking Regan told Israel to stop fighting in Lebanon and they did. So maybe our democratic president, dependent on left wing voters for support, should think about having at least as much balls as Regan. Then maybe Biden wouldn’t have to avoid college campuses: https://twitter.com/ryangrim/status/1763606297214152819
Instead of worrying about whether people like me will ultimately swallow support for one genocide in favor of protecting other issues, maybe worry about the 120 year old guy willing to tank his reelection just to support a genocide. If Biden loses it’s not because lefties didn’t fall in line, it’s because Biden failed as a leader in building a coalition. We ended up with Trump the first time cause Hillary was a shit politician. We’ll end up with Trump again for the same reason.
No it’ll be because of you, and when you’re getting dragged away. Your ideals, won’t matter. But having installed a flat out dictator (that will 100% support Israel and destroy the Ukraine). You’re going to say " I didn’t vote against the dictator but it’s not my fault!"
But hey! In your own mind you can blame someone else! That’ll make it alright? When LGBTQs are getting run down in the streets, it’s legal to rape women, and religious indoctrination invades every facet of American life. You can sit back be smug and say I did that!
No the wedge issue, is losing everyone in THIS COUNTRY the right to vote FOREVER.
You think the first round of Trump was bad, when he gets back in because of fucktards like you. He ain’t leaving, and it won’t be pretty for any of you “progressive”, I’m voting my ideals types.
But isn’t it a threat to withhold support in the campaign process? So they’d vote for Biden but not urge others to do so, potentially leading to a Hillary moment in November.
Which makes the image accurate: Trump isn’t standing there allied with them, he’s snuck up behind them because they’re unwittingly giving him cover.
It’s a threat made during the process where the candidate is chosen, which is how it should be - once he’s on the ballot as the candidate is the time to unify.
Yeah, in that case we may as well let Trump win. That’ll go well for all the American minorities and LGBT folks and nonchristians and socialists. I mean, there’s a genocide on in another country, what difference does it make if your sister goes to prison for seeking an abortion after she’s raped? And all those people wanting IVF? Fuckem. If the Nine Godkings of this country decide unilaterally that all embryos are children and every sperm is sacred because a christofascist annointed them, that’s fine. At least you didn’t vote for the guy that wouldn’t have annointed those christofascist Godkings.
Traditionally, candidates for President try to earn votes. The position of democrats now is “fuck you, vote for me or else.” And maybe that would hold some value if this was some small disagreement over marijuana legalization or the timing of single payer healthcare. But it’s not, Democrats are asking voters to endorse genocide cause the other guy is worse. And you want to yell at the people morally opposed to genocide for not getting onboard, instead of yelling at the politicians losing support among his base because of the genocide he’s supporting. Your directing your anger at the wrong people.
A tidbit from this afternoon’s politico newsletter:
“How Biden aides are trying to shield the president from protests,” by NBC’s Monica Alba, Carol Lee, Peter Alexander and Elyse Perlmutter-Gumbiner: “Biden’s team is increasingly taking extraordinary steps to minimize disruptions from pro-Palestinian protests at his events by making them smaller, withholding their precise locations from the media and the public until he arrives, avoiding college campuses and, in at least one instance, considering hiring a private company to vet attendees.
“The efforts have resulted in zero disruptions at events the White House or the campaign have organized for Biden in the five weeks since he was interrupted a dozen times during an abortion rights speech in Virginia. But they have also meant that Biden is appearing in front of fewer voters and not personally engaging with some of the key constituencies whose support he is struggling to gain, such as young voters.”
He ain’t wrong … The Intercept’s Ryan Grim observes: “A Democratic campaign that is scared of college campuses is not a campaign that can win given today’s coalitions”
I fully agree that Biden needs to do better. That any president doesn’t hamper the efforts of foreign governments to commit genocide, let alone support those government’s efforts, is a legitimate travesty worth protesting against. Supporting Israel is plainly losing him votes.
I also don’t like Biden. I hate the guy. I’m not upset at people for being upset at him, I’m upset at people who’ll refuse to vote for him if the choice is between him and Trump. I have friends whose lives are materially worse because Trump won in 2016, and I have even more friends whose lives will be even worse if he wins again in 2024. I don’t care if lemmings hate me for saying we need to vote for whatever democrat is on the ballot in November. If it’s not Biden, good. If it is Biden, suck it up and vote blue anyway. Every single person who could possibly be president in 2024 does support Israel, so we must look at what else they’ll do to decide which one should win.
A vote is not an endorsement, it’s just an attempt to steer the country. If we don’t vote, Republicans will, and doomer leftists will be forced to realize all too late that actually, fascism is worse than voting for Biden.
Your totally right, and I agree with you. I’ll end up voting for the guy and hate every second of it, moreso than the first time I voted for him. I think my point, to the extent I have one and I’m not convinced of that, is that democratic voters at large need to spend less time browbeating the idealists and more time demanding the Biden administration/campaign actually, you know, build a coalition. The current strategy of Biden pissing off his base with genocide, hiding from young voters, shifting to the right on like every policy (“give me the authority and I will shut down the border”), and just hoping that other Democrats will yell at the idealists until they abandon their ideals and fall in line, just doesn’t sound like a winning reelection campaign.
I came of political age with Obama in '08. We were inspired and hopeful, yes we can was a real feeling, I donated, door knocked in a swing state, I took that experience into other local elections. Now we’re going on a decade of uninspiring Dem candidates we are basically just guilted into voting for cause the other guy is worse, so we mostly begrudgingly swallow our misgivings and vote for the lessor of two evils. I just don’t know that that can sustain through another cycle, and the whole genocide thing isn’t helping. The problem isn’t that we’re not yelling at idealists to fall in line loud enough. The problem, in my view, is that we’re yelling at the idealists at all, instead of our leaders who are taking their support for granite.
He will, as will anyone following US foreign policy, which is anyone who could ever currently be elected. We need to get better candidates in office, but until we can, we have to work with the lesser evils we have.
The added noise though will confuse the average voter that doesn’t even know that primaries are a thing. People will carry their beliefs with them to November at this point.
The commenter is correct. If Tlaib were advocating being uncommitted in the actual election, the cartoon would be correct, but this is what primaries are for.
Just look at the Lemmy (highly Progressive demographic) comments around this protest. Lots of “I will not vote for genocide” comments all around.
And bringing up that their refusal to vote for Hillary for similar protests, I.E. “I will not vote for DNC corruption” , contributed to Trumps 2016 win, that resulted in generations of damage, all you get is denials, that the DNC made them do it.
So yeah. Academically, you’re right. They are not saying they will not vote for Biden in the general election. But if the progressive dialog around this protest is any indicator, there are many who will not.
Progressives are the easiest vote to disenfranchise. All it takes is one wedge issue, and they are out.
And then you have the corollary on the other side - for some on the far right, all it takes is one wedge issue to drive them in. Gun control, abortion, etc. I think that’s why we have to have an uphill battle every four years.
deleted by creator
More like all it takes is one Republican president to completely destroy the country. The fact that we’re even at this point, despite all the “checks and balances” should tell you that the “generational damage” is unavoidable at this point. What’s really gross is that liberals assign the blame to other leftists rather than uniting on these causes and forcing Biden and the DNC to be better.
I’d like to make an analogy. This is a much lower-stakes example, but several years ago, there was a huge push in the gaming community to stop preordering. If a development company hits their sales numbers with preorders, why bother delivering what you promised? Why bother even delivering a working game?
It is the same in politics. By giving the DNC and Biden your vote now, by loudly proclaiming that Biden is the only choice, you are saying that there is no need for course correction. There is no need for them to push harder on healthcare, or climate change, or wealth inequality, or any other issue, because you’ve given your power away. And because of that, we stay at the brink of collapse (and arguably inch closer), where one Republican president is all it takes to destroy everything we’ve tried to build in this country.
Edit: I really should clarify that we lose our power by not seriously considering other candidates and political parties. I don’t want to advocate for simply not voting. There are people out there who want the job but don’t want to bend the knee to capitalists.
So your solution is to just hand the country over to the Nazis because you don’t want to accept that “not Nazis” is good enough.
Smart.
Edit - I know that’s reductionist, but I’ve had this argument too much. My comment above highlights a way to course correct in the democratic way, without condemning this country to the Republicans to a point of no return.
I’d say the idea of using the primary to voice concerns about what’s happening in Gaza is the least harmful path for people who really care about stopping fascism in both countries. Dems need to really hear that there is a problem that needs to be addressed, and voting uncommitted is literally the least you can do.
Dems stand to lose a lot of votes if they continue to be silent for the “hug Bibi” policy.
Also, sorry, but I don’t understand what alternative you’re suggesting for this course-correction. Can you clarify?
For the record, my proposal is to hash this conversation out during the primaries and then go all-hands on deck for Dems in November. Because we have to.
I was mistaken, the comment I was referring to was in a different comment thread
Basically, promote progressives in the lower elections, get the foundation needed for a progressive presidential candidate to succeed.
I’m glad that you have the mindset to vote blue in the end. My issue here is that a lot of Lemmy progressives have at least indicated that they will boycott the party come November. Which is a big fucking problem.
And messaging like this only serves to siphon off votes, despite the technical distinction between primary and general elections.
I agree there’s a problem, and I agree about supporting progressive candidates when available.
I think this is being taken as the only option mostly because a lot of strong progressive voices sat out this primary.
Fair enough, to your point about people on Lemmy planning to make mistakes in November. I suspect those people aren’t the same ones voting uncommitted in the primary, though.
I mostly see those as motivated progressives trying to raise an alarm so Dems can course correct here. If Dems listened, they might give us more ammo to persuade those Lemmy users who aren’t on board.
I for one already voted uncommitted, and unless the genocidal ethnostate gets cut loose I’m not voting for Biden in November
I hear you. Hope the administration hears you too, for all our sakes.
I understand your position, and I worry what will happen if Trump wins as well. But my position is not “hand the country over to Nazis.” My position is actually “we are currently handing our country over to Nazis and we need to stop!”
Your right with respect to the never Hillary / DNC corruption crowd. The problem now is the “wedge issue” your referring to right now is a literal genocide. The morality of an endorsement of Biden being complicit, if not directly supporting through gifts of arms, in the knowing murder of tens of thousands of civilians, actively protecting the aggressor in the UN, is just so starkly different.
It’s plainly wrong now, and the history that is written of the US support for this genocide will be ugly and dark. Sometime many years from now my daughter may learn about this and ask what I did, and so is my answer that I voted to support the leader who made the genocide possible because that was the lessor of two evils? Perhaps that’s the right choice, Trump and Republicans are objectively worse for her future, but “Yes I supported Genocide Joe, but…” is not a very satisfying answer.
Another problem though is enthusiasm. I may ultimately vote for the lessor of two evils, but I can’t imagine feeling inspired to donate or knock on doors for the genocide candidate.
It’s a fucked situation.
Ok, so you’re on the fence about taking the bait on the genocide wedge issue. I get it, Gaza is a travesty.
But voting Red or Blue doesn’t change that. Voting independent or not voting doesn’t change that. There is no way that anyone who is against supporting Isreal will win this election. 0 chance.
Genocide in Ukraine and beyond actually is on the table, though. If Trump wins, the US will stop Ukraine support on day 1, and actually be actively discouraging NATO support, at best. And that’s just genocide, let alone everything else Trump will destroy.
If your thinking about your conscience long term, think about that.
That’s fair. Another option, which might sound crazy but hear me out, is maybe the president just stops funding genocide. Fucking Regan told Israel to stop fighting in Lebanon and they did. So maybe our democratic president, dependent on left wing voters for support, should think about having at least as much balls as Regan. Then maybe Biden wouldn’t have to avoid college campuses: https://twitter.com/ryangrim/status/1763606297214152819
Instead of worrying about whether people like me will ultimately swallow support for one genocide in favor of protecting other issues, maybe worry about the 120 year old guy willing to tank his reelection just to support a genocide. If Biden loses it’s not because lefties didn’t fall in line, it’s because Biden failed as a leader in building a coalition. We ended up with Trump the first time cause Hillary was a shit politician. We’ll end up with Trump again for the same reason.
No it’ll be because of you, and when you’re getting dragged away. Your ideals, won’t matter. But having installed a flat out dictator (that will 100% support Israel and destroy the Ukraine). You’re going to say " I didn’t vote against the dictator but it’s not my fault!"
But hey! In your own mind you can blame someone else! That’ll make it alright? When LGBTQs are getting run down in the streets, it’s legal to rape women, and religious indoctrination invades every facet of American life. You can sit back be smug and say I did that!
Example #36473 of Dems being weirdly gleeful talking about all the terrible things Republicans are going to do to women an queer people.
I wonder why people don’t trust you guys lol
Also not voting doesn’t make you complicit lol. Fucking Lemmy’s.
How is he a dictator? Also he will die soon. So not a long dictatorship. Maybe not even a full term.
No the wedge issue, is losing everyone in THIS COUNTRY the right to vote FOREVER.
You think the first round of Trump was bad, when he gets back in because of fucktards like you. He ain’t leaving, and it won’t be pretty for any of you “progressive”, I’m voting my ideals types.
With “allies” like you who needs republicans
Seriously…fucking libs.
But isn’t it a threat to withhold support in the campaign process? So they’d vote for Biden but not urge others to do so, potentially leading to a Hillary moment in November.
Which makes the image accurate: Trump isn’t standing there allied with them, he’s snuck up behind them because they’re unwittingly giving him cover.
It’s a threat made during the process where the candidate is chosen, which is how it should be - once he’s on the ballot as the candidate is the time to unify.
Unless Biden refuses to listen and is still committing Genocide of course
Yeah, in that case we may as well let Trump win. That’ll go well for all the American minorities and LGBT folks and nonchristians and socialists. I mean, there’s a genocide on in another country, what difference does it make if your sister goes to prison for seeking an abortion after she’s raped? And all those people wanting IVF? Fuckem. If the Nine Godkings of this country decide unilaterally that all embryos are children and every sperm is sacred because a christofascist annointed them, that’s fine. At least you didn’t vote for the guy that wouldn’t have annointed those christofascist Godkings.
Traditionally, candidates for President try to earn votes. The position of democrats now is “fuck you, vote for me or else.” And maybe that would hold some value if this was some small disagreement over marijuana legalization or the timing of single payer healthcare. But it’s not, Democrats are asking voters to endorse genocide cause the other guy is worse. And you want to yell at the people morally opposed to genocide for not getting onboard, instead of yelling at the politicians losing support among his base because of the genocide he’s supporting. Your directing your anger at the wrong people.
A tidbit from this afternoon’s politico newsletter:
I fully agree that Biden needs to do better. That any president doesn’t hamper the efforts of foreign governments to commit genocide, let alone support those government’s efforts, is a legitimate travesty worth protesting against. Supporting Israel is plainly losing him votes.
I also don’t like Biden. I hate the guy. I’m not upset at people for being upset at him, I’m upset at people who’ll refuse to vote for him if the choice is between him and Trump. I have friends whose lives are materially worse because Trump won in 2016, and I have even more friends whose lives will be even worse if he wins again in 2024. I don’t care if lemmings hate me for saying we need to vote for whatever democrat is on the ballot in November. If it’s not Biden, good. If it is Biden, suck it up and vote blue anyway. Every single person who could possibly be president in 2024 does support Israel, so we must look at what else they’ll do to decide which one should win.
A vote is not an endorsement, it’s just an attempt to steer the country. If we don’t vote, Republicans will, and doomer leftists will be forced to realize all too late that actually, fascism is worse than voting for Biden.
Your totally right, and I agree with you. I’ll end up voting for the guy and hate every second of it, moreso than the first time I voted for him. I think my point, to the extent I have one and I’m not convinced of that, is that democratic voters at large need to spend less time browbeating the idealists and more time demanding the Biden administration/campaign actually, you know, build a coalition. The current strategy of Biden pissing off his base with genocide, hiding from young voters, shifting to the right on like every policy (“give me the authority and I will shut down the border”), and just hoping that other Democrats will yell at the idealists until they abandon their ideals and fall in line, just doesn’t sound like a winning reelection campaign.
I came of political age with Obama in '08. We were inspired and hopeful, yes we can was a real feeling, I donated, door knocked in a swing state, I took that experience into other local elections. Now we’re going on a decade of uninspiring Dem candidates we are basically just guilted into voting for cause the other guy is worse, so we mostly begrudgingly swallow our misgivings and vote for the lessor of two evils. I just don’t know that that can sustain through another cycle, and the whole genocide thing isn’t helping. The problem isn’t that we’re not yelling at idealists to fall in line loud enough. The problem, in my view, is that we’re yelling at the idealists at all, instead of our leaders who are taking their support for granite.
How do you know they aren’t also directing anger at the Democrats? They exist outside of this thread…
Exactly. So make sure to tell Biden to stop committing Genocide or what you just said is going to happen exactly how you just said it.
He will, as will anyone following US foreign policy, which is anyone who could ever currently be elected. We need to get better candidates in office, but until we can, we have to work with the lesser evils we have.
This isn’t even a lesser evil thing. One guy is openly stating he will destroy democracy in this country.
I mean, these people have serious fuck around and find out problems.
So vote for the dictator! That’ll show’em.
The added noise though will confuse the average voter that doesn’t even know that primaries are a thing. People will carry their beliefs with them to November at this point.
Doubt it. People like that vote based on whatever the prevailing attitude is right when they vote and nothing else matters.
Great. The sooner Biden feels his election is in danger, the sooner little kids can stop having their legs amputated without anesthetics.
So vote Trump increase it there AND bring it here!
I mean your logic is infallible! What could go wrong installing a dictator that openly wants to destroy you! That’ll show them!